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Posted: 11/25/2005 7:44 AM
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Tilus
Former player
Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 177
Looks like a good route, for a very quick and dirty testrun. Not knowing a whole lot about Mario 64 (I must be the only person in the entire world who has purchased an N64 and does not nor has ever owned Mario 64 or either N64 Zelda game), I can't comment very much about improvements to the route. However, there is one thing I'm curious about.. How does the 'water receding' on Dire Dire Docks work? Is it possible to grab all the Dire Dire Docks stars first, getting the Board Bowser's Sub star last, then watch as the water recedes and then do Bowser 2? Sure it may not really be much faster (maybe saves you the 2 seconds or so it takes to leap over the Bowser 2 hole to get to the receded DDD entrance), but it should look fairly interesting when doing the final run..
Posted: 11/25/2005 9:26 AM
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Walker_Boh
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Tilus wrote:
However, there is one thing I'm curious about.. How does the 'water receding' on Dire Dire Docks work? Is it possible to grab all the Dire Dire Docks stars first, getting the Board Bowser's Sub star last, then watch as the water recedes and then do Bowser 2? Sure it may not really be much faster (maybe saves you the 2 seconds or so it takes to leap over the Bowser 2 hole to get to the receded DDD entrance), but it should look fairly interesting when doing the final run..
That's an interesting idea. I don't think you can grab all stars this way because you need to get the red coins to show up, or are they there from the start but without poles? Anyway, boarding Bowsers submarine as late as possible could be a good idea then perhaps?
/Walker Boh
Posted: 11/25/2005 11:41 AM
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Wouter_Jansen
Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
Location: The Netherlands
I have something you might want to look into. since the KTQ race takes so long, try and do the 100 coin star at that time. find out how many coins you can get while KTQ races up there and leaves you able to finish just ahead of him. then make a route of what coins to get before starting the race. And I say it's a must for the PSS to be at worst 12''4 both times, since that's the WR on a console (done by several). Note, I didn't watch test17 yet. In DDD you'll have to get the red coins (and 100 star coin) without using the poles, and the poles don't need to be there :p
Posted: 11/25/2005 12:34 PM
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nesrocks
He/Him
Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
yea i thought about doing that with the 100 coins in KTQ race, but i figured that the red coins route takes longer than the KTQ race. i too believe that KTQ moves faster if mario is ahead of him, but like i said, at bob-omb battlefield i was just fooling around. i'm not sure, but i think that when you get 1 either star from DDD for the first time, it automatically opens up bowser#2. but it might be just "board bowser's sub", i'll test it. Yea, of course i'll do 12,4 on PSS, if i can't do better than that. But i think it wastes time overall, because mario has to position than start the race sideways. If so, i'll get 12,4 only once, and then i'll go for whatever is fastest in frames.
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Posted: 11/25/2005 3:22 PM
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Walker_Boh
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Wouter Jansen wrote:
In DDD you'll have to get the red coins (and 100 star coin) without using the poles, and the poles don't need to be there :p
Awesome. I've actually never fooled around in this level with Bowsers submarine still there, so I've never noticed if the coins were there or not. So that's great news!
/Walker Boh
Posted: 11/25/2005 3:24 PM
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nesrocks
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Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
would be much harder to get the red coins without the poles wouldn't it? not worthy saving the small extra step in the castle...
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 11/25/2005 4:07 PM
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Jammer01
Joined: 11/24/2005
Posts: 87
I might be wrong, but I thought it was actually faster to get the red coins without the poles (especially with tools) because if you use the poles you have to wait for the poles to get where they are going all the time, but without the poles, you can just go from one crazy stunt to the next, with almost no wait time. I also think it would look a lot cooler this way. It might be a good idea to get a lot of coins in the first area and then head over to the next area, get 84 coins and then go up and get the red coins and hopefully manipulating your last jump so that you collect the coin and star at once and quickly get in position to grab the 8 red coin star.
Posted: 11/25/2005 4:16 PM
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nesrocks
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Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
but the time saved by doing all of the DDD stars before entering bowser#2 is so small that if even 1 pole could be used to make it faster, it would already be better to do them after bowser#2
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 11/25/2005 6:37 PM
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Jammer01
Joined: 11/24/2005
Posts: 87
Well what I was trying to say was that I think the poles are actually slower, all of them, because you have to wait for the poles to take you places. If you are in complete control of how fast you go, then in a TAS, not using the poles should be significantly faster than using the poles, but I could be wrong.
Posted: 11/25/2005 6:39 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Yeah, and if the poles get in your way, you have the few seconds of Mario grabbing them and then jumping off them.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 11/25/2005 7:30 PM
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asteron
Joined: 2/16/2005
Posts: 462
I am pretty sure the water only receeds after the "Board Bowser's Sub" star is collected. Also the sub doesnt disappear (replaced by poles) until after Bowser 2 is defeated. Given this you should probably collect every other star (maybe except for the red coins) before it. If the red coins is slower with only the sub than wait until after defeating bowser 2 to do it. Else do it before 'board bowser's sub' with the other stars. I am guessing the red coins are slower without the poles (Ive only been able to collect 7 of them without poles though).
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Posted: 11/25/2005 7:41 PM
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Jammer01
Joined: 11/24/2005
Posts: 87
Just watched the rest of your testrun, and I have to say its good, but there are some things that are strategically wrong with it. For example, you can skip nessie without a butt-stomp/turnaround jump, with just very rapid old fasioned mario jumps. Also, you should lean forward when sliding down slopes. Some of your 100 coin routes seem innefficient, but I havent looked at them closely. Your CCM 100 coin route does seem good though. You should probably look into doing bowser after DDD is completely finished. Also, I may be wrong, but I thought you could get onto Nessie's head without stomping her back. I had more, but its been an hour or so since i watched it. I'll post more later. I'm of course only posting problems I see with your strategy, because you said this is your planning stage for routes, which I assume also aplies to routes within stages. I'm not posting execution mistakes, of course, that would be trivial. Anyway, just trying to help iron out your route for you, and this is looking like it's going to be a fantastic run when all is said and done.
Posted: 11/25/2005 7:46 PM
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asteron
Joined: 2/16/2005
Posts: 462
The 70-star run on SDA grabs the central star in Hazy Maze without Nessie. I think you can get on the head without stomping but I dont think Nessie will go in the direction you want her to.
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Posted: 11/25/2005 9:11 PM
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nesrocks
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Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
thanks for comments but i didn't really plan much the in-level stars. Yes i too got the center island star without even touching nessie. I had no idea someone could do it too, it was difficult to do even with tools (haven't watched the 70 stars run).
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 11/25/2005 9:29 PM
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Jammer01
Joined: 11/24/2005
Posts: 87
thats not what I meant, of course its possible to get to the center island without using nessie, but the way you did it was not the best way. So is this test run mainly to test out routes from course to course and general routes within the stages? If you plan to iron out your routes as you do this run for real, thats all good and well, but I'll continue to point things out that you didn't do in case you hadn't thought of them to make sure this video turns out perfect. I made a very long post over at the SDA that goes through Leceueur's 70 star run star by star, and I came up with very many route changes/ideas/crazy things but most of them wouldnt have been feasible in a legit run, well here is a TAS, and a chance to do some of these things. That post can be found at http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=consoles_newer;action=display;num=1118552429;start=195#195, but please, don't bump it, its really old. Anyway, before you start your real run, you should read through my big long post on there, you might find some useful tricks.
Posted: 11/25/2005 10:08 PM
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nesrocks
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Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
ok sure thanks, maybe i should watch the 70 star run too, because, obviously i tried to get in the island many many times and didn't bother to re-record, so it's full of trial and error, but if you're saying the way i got on top of it wasn't good (backflip jump) then i guess i'll have to watch it. And no i'm not planning the in-level stars, i'm just finding a quick way to get the star and then i go and grab it. The purpose of this test run is to see if the castle route works and it doesn't matter much how i get the stars inside the levels (with some exceptions, like DDD now, where the castle route influence the time to take the star...). This is all because i don't want to start optimizing the movie (which is hard on a 3d game) and then just find out that i have to redo something. I won't like to redo things that were agreed to be the best strategy... unless it looks REALLY wrong. That's where the joined effort will be very helpfull, to keep the comments coming while it's time (like you're doing now). I'll read your post and download the 70-star run, but those might not make a very big difference at this point. On the other hand, i hope i finish the test run by this weekend, so we're not far from starting the real thing.
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 11/25/2005 11:26 PM
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asteron
Joined: 2/16/2005
Posts: 462
That 70 star run is completely amazing. You would think that the player would be conservative in such a long run but he does a ridiculous amount of risky moves to shave off seconds. Puts the 16 and 120 star runs to shame.
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Posted: 11/26/2005 12:44 AM
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Wouter_Jansen
Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
Location: The Netherlands
definitely get the red coins without the poles, it's a lot faster, Curtis even got 2:25 with several errors and it can be improved upon by a bunch still. I think it's out of the question to get near that time using the poles, even for TAS. you'll need the sub to be there, catch me on aim/msn for the video.
Posted: 11/26/2005 4:26 PM
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nesrocks
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Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
But to do that route one has to fall in the water several times, are you sure that having one pole here and there wouldn't prevent that?? i'll have to try using the poles, i watched the vid but i'm not convinced yet. hmmm ok ok i got it falling in the water only once. yea it's probably faster... funny thing is that i found out bowser's sub won't go away untill you beat bowser. its not the "board bowser's sub" star that makes the sub be there. that means i could get any other star than that, beat bowser and then "board bowser's sub" star should be floating there in the middle of nothing. but i guess it's faster to get all stars before fighting bowser i got all stars and manta ray didn't appear, but i didn't try picking one of the stars that i had already gotten, i always picked "board bowser's sub" star. anyway, if manta ray can appear before defeating bowser, let me know, i'll do that in the final run. for now i've completed ghost house, have 74 stars in 1h 22m, going to the upper floor now.
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 11/26/2005 7:41 PM
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asteron
Joined: 2/16/2005
Posts: 462
You can't get board bowser's sub without the sub since getting the board bowser's sub star causes the water to receed and opens Bowser 2. Defeating Bowser is what causes the sub to be replaced by poles. I dont know about the mana...
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Posted: 11/26/2005 10:09 PM
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nesrocks
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Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
ok, in the test run i did all basement levels, including both caps and bowser. and only then i went for ghost house. that is wrong, after beating bowser one should re-enter its level and choose exit and that brings back to the lobby. i'd like to do ghost house before going to the basement, but i need the vanish cap for it. gotta think about that...
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 11/27/2005 3:29 AM
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OmnipotentEntity
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Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
I'm pretty sure that the 70 star run gets the Blue Cap Star without the Blue Cap,
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Posted: 11/27/2005 3:31 AM
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nesrocks
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Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
humm what do you mean? i need the vanish cap inside ghost house, and in dire dire docks for some stars. in my test run i too get the vanish cap star without a vanish cap, but i need to activate the switch anyway
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 11/27/2005 3:34 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the 70 star run gets the Blue Cap Star without the Blue Cap,
So, you don't mean this one?
LeCoureur103 wrote:
I also tried to take into account the time spent moving through the castle, which meant that I wasn't able to get the Vanishing Cap or its star since they're so far off the beaten path.
BTW, Foda, maybe you should test if it's possible to do the backwards stair jumping from the stairs that go down into the basement, if it's possible it would probably save time in reaching the ghost house down that hallway.
Posted: 11/27/2005 3:37 AM
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OmnipotentEntity
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Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
I meant the star in the Ghost house behind the secret wall. iirc, that was the #6 star in the Ghost house and I'm pretty sure that he collected that one in the 70 star run without using the Blue cap. I could, of course, be horribly mistaken on this point.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
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