Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Memory wrote:
However, this does not address the initial question, which was "how should these be classed?"
If the 2 quests are identical aside from difficulty, using a code to play the hardest difficulty qualifies for Standard. Or if hardest difficulty is not worth it for that game, first quest belongs to Standard instead.
If there are major differences between the 2 quests, they are just separate modes and are both eligible for Standard.
If the differences are not major enough for separate modes, but significant enough for separate branches, I'm not sure which we want to pick for Standard - fastest or hardest?
Finally if the differences are not significant enough to have them as separate branches, we should prefer both quests in one movie.
Opinions?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I feel the nature of the code being used should play a factor. If it takes you directly to loop 2, I'm more in favor of it being used than if it at best takes you 1 level before loop 2. Is it a level select? Is it a generic save password (used in games without proper save systems)? Or is it a designated loop 2 code?
EDIT: I think I'm never in favor of accepting to Standard if the code does not take you directly to the start of loop 2.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I think if the game explicitly marks the code as "you're making your life easier through an unfair advantage", we shouldn't use it regardless.
If the game explicitly presents you the code as a 100% legitimate way of playing, the current rules allow it. It could be a level select code, and I'd feel uneasy if we ban it for "not skipping directly to loop N". But let's check it against my list.
If you can't skip directly to loop N, then it doesn't look like the only difference between with and without the code is difficulty, right?
If there are major differences and the modes are completely separate, I personally wouldn't mind skipping to "near" loop N.
If they have similarities but can still be separate branches, it could be discussed whether we want to allow skipping to "near" loop N. I wouldn't mind banning that.
If we want both in one, the problem is non-existent.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
After giving it some thought, I don't think skipping to just before the second loop starts should be allowed for Standard, especially if stuff carries over between both loops. In that case, a movie that completes both loops is much more preferred IMO.
As for codes that allow directly going to the second loop, I don't mind it being allowed for Standard.
So in a private staff discussion, we agreed to the following:
Loop 1 is always standard. In order for loop 2 to be standard, it needs to be an explicit in-game mode, even if it is hidden.
If the game has unique content in loop 2, we prefer both in one movie.
Loop 2 can obsolete loop 1 but it has to be entertaining. If it's not entertaining, but you still want to add loop 2, we prefer both in one movie.
Note that in most cases loop 1 means the hardest difficulty directly available. So for example, in Super R-Type, Hard mode is loop 1 and Pro is loop 2, since you can directly access Hard Mode, but need to use level select to reach Pro.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
With in-game codes* being allowed for Moons, I feel we should have a separate "Uses an in-game code" tag to properly differentiate from "Uses a level password". What do y'all think?
Use cases would be for unlocking all levels or vehicles or giving access to various items, for instance.
*I should point out that I published it with the "Uses a level password" tag, even though it's technically not entirely correct, as it's a code that you input in-game to unlock all the homeworlds instead of going through the requirements that's being used in this case.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
fsvgm777 wrote:
With in-game codes* being allowed for Moons, I feel we should have a separate "Uses an in-game code" tag to properly differentiate from "Uses a level password". What do y'all think?
Use cases would be for unlocking all levels or vehicles or giving access to various items, for instance.
Agreed, we'd use it for any code that's not a level password.
For clarity I think we can reuse the definition of in-game codes that was present in the old movie rules:
When we speak about codes that are part of a game that we allow for use in certain scenarios, we are talking about passwords that can be entered in a menu, pressing some buttons on the title screen, passing execution parameters or setting environment variables for DOS games, or anything of a similar nature. This excludes things like Game Genie codes or emulator cheating tools. Codes are considered secret if the game never tells them to the player: neither through official documentation nor during gameplay.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Sounds good to me.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Created it.
EDIT: should probably say it's "ingamecode"
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Codes are considered secret if the game never tells them to the player: neither through official documentation nor during gameplay.
For the sake of discussion, here are some oddball corner cases.
Bio Menace contains (1) codes like level warp and infinite ammo, that are mentioned in the manual and called "cheat keys"; (2) special moves like a fireball, that are mentioned in the manual and called "battle moves"; (3) hidden moves like a bullet shield, where the existence is mentioned in the manual (also as "battle moves") but the key sequence is not. Basically, "here are four special moves and we'll give you the key sequence for two of them".
Notably, the first game of the trilogy is free and doesn't come with this manual. The 2nd and 3rd are paid and do have the manual. The same controls work in all three games.
Might & Magic IV contains magical mirrors that can teleport you, and the game has (1) teleport codes that are explicitly mentioned in-game, such as "Rivercity" taking you to, well, River City; (2) teleport codes that are hinted at in-game, such as "Lord Xeen" (the big bad who is known to have one of those mirrors); and (3) codes that are only found by opening the executable in a hex editor, such as "Count du money" that puts you in a high-level area next to a convenient huge pile of cash. The third group is generally agreed to be cheat codes, but the distinction between the second and the third group isn't clear.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
feos wrote:
Radiant wrote:
For that matter, it may be interesting to have a genre tag for "beat-em-up" (as in Streets of Rage, because that's pretty distinct from e.g. Street Fighter 2); as well as for "first-person shooter" (as in DOOM, because that's pretty distinct from e.g. Gradius).
Agreed.
Checking this again, we have Fighting and Shooter, don't these suffice?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Noxxa wrote:
Memory wrote:
Unofficial Games could use being split into hacks/modifications, custom levels, homebrew, and bootlegs/unlicensed. I don't know if this is the best way to split but we can discuss it.
I would split up Unofficial Games as follows:
• Hacks - defined as custom (external) modifications of a game, involving modification of the main executable or ROM file by external tools.
◦ E.g.: Super Demo World (Super Mario World)
• Custom level set - for games where level files can be imported (through internal or external means) while the executable or game code itself remains untouched.
◦ E.g.: Kama Sutra (Doom 2)
• Prototype - for (unofficially released/leaked) prototype versions of games that either were officially released later or cancelled.
◦ E.g.: Wildwaters Extreme Kayak
• Unlicensed games - games that were physically/commercially released bypassing the platform's official publisher's platform or supervision (if there is one). This includes bootleg/pirated games.
◦ E.g.: Zook Hero Z
• Homebrew - games that were developed outside of the platform's official publisher's platform, but were either fully or predominantly released online in ROM format, instead of being released commercially. Could also be merged with Unlicensed.
◦ E.g.: Princess Rescue
How does this table look?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Sounds sane to include them, but why is it SRAM specifically and not all initialized memory?
Also that movie not just uses uninitialized initial state but specifically sets it via emulator settings, so it should only apply if a movie uses initial state that is not default in the emulator.
A lot of games forget to initialize memory and some startup states can break games, so emulator authors had to choose which specific startup states are the most compatible with real games, and if they were dedicated enough, they also researched what used to happen on actual consoles. But as long as you don't deviate from the default, you're a part of the fair standardized competition, even if it's not 100% accurate.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
"glitchless" tag.
Should it supersede all mentions of avoided glitches?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Looks like we're missing the "beat 'em up" genre. Not sure how good the tag would look if we format it correctly (apostrophe is unlikely to work), but they seem to also be called "brawler" games. So how do we call it?
Wiki: GamesHowTo#Fighting says we just have to call them "fighting" too and I disagree with that. There's no reason to randomly put one genre into another when there's a dedicated name for it that is clear and well-known.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I've noticed this too and agree that we need the separate tag.
I've seen "beat 'em up" in use much more often than "brawler", and it would be nice to use the more popular term if we can figure out the formatting. If "Genre: Beat em up" doesn't work, maybe "Beat-em-up", which I've seen in a couple of places.
