I emailed this to the site owner and he suggested i post this here:
Im thinking of selling VCDs or DVDs of the time attack videos on eBay. I dont want to charge alot of money maybe 3-4 bucks CDN plus shipping for a VCD and 7-10 bucks for a DVD. Not all of the games of course but some of the more popular ones when they were out ( Mario series, Metroid, DD etc). I dont want to do this without some consent before i do it. In no way do i want people to think i did the things in the videos and will gladly add your site on the DVD and your name and info along with all the info of the people who made the FMVs of the games. Let me know what you think about this. If you're really opposed to would it be okay to create my own mpg or mpg2 of the fmvs?
.:gm :.
It does seem unsettling that you'd be making a (very small) amount of money from other peoples timeattacks.
If, however, you were to do something where the 'customers' could send you a blank CD/DVD and a exact amount needed for shipping, and you just record everything they want onto them, then send them back to them.. maybe I'd reconsider, because I think it'd be nice to see those kinda things on a DVD. Obviously you'd need to get every attackers permission for each game you're putting on the DVD first.
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
I don´t want my movies to be sold either. Why should you make profit for our hard work? I guess you have no idea how many hours we spend on making those time attacks. When Bis mentioned this earlier I thought it was something different you had in mind but it wasn´t. No, you can´t use my movies for that. And not the .fmvs since they are my work. The AVIs is partially Bis work.
seems to be a conflict about rights. it will be difficult for the runners if he will sold the videos without their permissions...
morally it would be wrong to sell this movies in every way!
the main reason for getting money at ebay is because the people are stupid :D
but hey if you want to sell speedruns at ebay, why dont you make some by yourself?
I don't think it's a good idea.
We do our videos for fun, not to earn anything (maybe some honor, but not money). And as Deviance said, why pay for something that they can get for free. And of course, no offence, but I don't see why you should make money from our videos.
Na, I think this whole concept is a really bad idea.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
many people don't have time / bandwidth / patience to downloads thousands of megabytes, on that matter i don't think it's meaningless to sell it. but if the movie makers don't agree, then u have a problem.
my movies you can use no problem, just don't say that u made it. i don't care at all. (too bad i don't have many movies hehe, mainly battletoads and mickey castle of illusion)
Joined: 3/21/2004
Posts: 32
Location: the Netherlands
I'm opposed to it because I'm against selling people things that can be gotten for free. People on e-bay obviously have an internet connection. Even if it's a slow one they can easily watch the fmv's. If there were only avi's available I might've thought differently (though I'd definitely hesitate).
Free linux distro's being sold for a small price is an example of what I think is ok because some people have no other option, but as it is in this case, this is not even an issue.
Verdict has been reached.
I do not allow the files downloaded from my site be sold as is or in any postprocessed form (such as taking FMV file and converting it to MPG format yourself).
i can understand that you fordbid the download for something like that. but how will you realize that? unfortunately it's nearly impossible to get international right. especially because you only host most of the runs and did not create them by yourself. so the runners got the copyrights and they would have to go to law. then others problems would occur i.e. roms... does everybody got every game for real?
excuse me i do not want to offend you in any way, i just want to say that we cannot prevent such actions...damn it!
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
I think speedrunner has a point. We cannot prevent it in any way really. As soon as the movies/fmvs/whatever is published they are free for anyone. But to make profit on someone elses work sucks! However, I do wanna give him credits for asking about it. But im still against the whole concept.
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 155
Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
Permit me to play Devil's Advocate.
There might be any number of reasons that people are willing to pay for something they can otherwise get for free:
. They're unaware that they can get it for free
. They don't have the time or patience to download large files
. They don't have the time or patience to set up FMV playback
. They don't have broadband and would find a VCD delivered to them very convenient
By refusing grassmunk's request, you are dictating when, where, and how your work can be viewed. I find this troubling. Why don't you let the buyer decide for himself what's worth his money?
In the eyes of the market, grassmunk is providing a real service that is worth paying for. He's spending a non-trivial amount of time to package, promote, sell, and deliver this content. As stated above, people might find it worth the money for a little convenience.
Flat out refusing redistribution and pretending that it'll do any good is folly. People can and will re-sell your work without your permission. Perhaps a better approach is a compromise. The link that people must click-through to purchase the VCD should have a prominent disclaimer: "This content is available for free download from http://tasvideos.org/" This will guarantee that at the very least, your work reaches a wider audience.
He's spending a non-trivial amount of time to package, promote, sell, and deliver this content.
What about the time it took for us to make the videos or Bisqwit to encode and publish them? I think that is the main issue here. He wants to make money off of somebody else's work and I think everbody who has had a part in these videos should have a problem with that.
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 155
Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
kopernical wrote:
He wants to make money off of somebody else's work and I think everbody who has had a part in these videos should have a problem with that.
People making money off others' hard work is an old story: witness the music industry. I'm not saying this is right, but a reality.
Let me put it this way: If people are willing to pay for something, then someone will be there to sell it to them. You could (try to) forbid people from paying money for your work, but I don't think you'll be thanked for it.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
but why bother that someone is making money over a work u did FOR FREE? we are making movies and we aren't charging anyone to view them, what's the problem if the guy wants to sell??? i'm not losing anything. he can sell my movie for a million dollars as if i cared.
in brazil it's very common to buy magazines that are actually cds full of demos. DEMOS. it's the work of collecting everything, making a nice selection, and put it all in one practical cd for easy access. it saves the trouble of downloading, watching the videos, just to find out some aren't really interesting, etc. if he advertises it like this:
"Best tool assisted timeattacks collection up to [this date]." people will buy. he just has to mention the site where he got it from and info on every player very well seable. i have no objections. but that's just me as it seems....
People making money off others' hard work is an old story: witness the music industry. I'm not saying this is right, but a reality.
That doesn't mean we have to support it.
What I mean is if these were just being made to hand out then I don't think that anybody would care. But do you really expect us to say, "sure you can make money off of our work--so long as you mention the site on which they're posted." Come on.
I know there's no way to prevent him from doing it, but that doesn't mean we are obliged to give him permission.
Joined: 3/21/2004
Posts: 32
Location: the Netherlands
Sure, it takes time and work to put together a nice collection, burn it and sell it. And you can't stop people from doing it either. However, that doesn't mean you should give people permission.
If anyone has the moral right to sell CD's/DVD's with movies, it would be either the original runner, or the person who is distributing it already. I wouldn't mind Bisqwit, Arc etc. doing it through a section on their sites. That way the whole thing is transparent and people can make an informed decision wether or not to buy them. But I think they are busy enough with their site already. :o)
That said, if someone else decides to provide this service it wouldn't bother me all that much. However, I choose not to support this idea because I'd rather not see it happen, not because I'm gonna fight people to death. :-P
If people are willing to pay for something, then someone will be there to sell it to them. You could (try to) forbid people from paying money for your work, but I don't think you'll be thanked for it.
If that's the case, then Bisqwit and/or the FMV creators should consider possibly selling their work directly.. or else _licensing_ the right to do so to this guy. The original poster, however, has no right (currently) to take the FMVs and produce a DVD for sale (regardless if there's profit involved or not).
Those rights must be granted by each of the makers of the FMV, because they made the FMV itself.
FODA wrote:
in brazil it's very common to buy magazines that are actually cds full of demos. DEMOS. it's the work of collecting everything, making a nice selection, and put it all in one practical cd for easy access.
The same is true in America, but those demos are included on a "free" CD. You might only be able to get the CD if you buy the magazine, but the CD itself does not increase the cost of the magazine (i.e. if they published two versions of the magazine, one with and one without a CD, they should both cost the same amount).
What this guy offered was certainly not a "free" CD; it's a DVD/VCD being sold directly, and for-profit.
As I mentioned above, the players have created a good which may have some market value. If so, it's up to them to decide how they wish to market it. Some players here might staunchly refuse regardless of the arrangement, in which case their wishes should be respected.
Other players might be open to a licensing agreement, where they receive a few cents every time someone buys the DVD. Still others may want a small one-time fee, with no royalties.
Those players may also wish their FMVs to be displayed in certain ways; it's their right. If mfried wants his SMB1 run to be the first video on the DVD, and the original poster doesn't want to do that, then mfried can refuse to allow the poster to include it on the DVD. Simple as that.
If mfried wants the video played upside-down and the original poster can't dissuade mfried from such a silly request, then his only alternative is to NOT USE mfried's FMVs. If mfried thinks the SMB video is worth $500, and the original poster doesn't want to pay that fee, then the original poster CANNOT USE mfried's video. Now, I would hope that mfried isn't as silly as that, but it's his creation and he can make whatever crazy demands of it that he wishes.
In short, the author has *complete* control over his/her work, so he/she can choose who can and cannot use it, as well as the purpose for which it is used, and how he/she should be compensated for it. If the requests are outrageous, the product will go unsold/unused.. but just because the requests are outrageous doesn't mean that the author has somehow given up his rights to his work.
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 155
Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
fuwafuwa wrote:
In short, the author has *complete* control over his/her work, so he/she can choose who can and cannot use it, as well as the purpose for which it is used, and how he/she should be compensated for it.
If we truly adhered to this creed, then this site would not exist. Emulation is a *prime* example of users going against a creator's wishes.
