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Posted: 1/21/2006 11:16 PM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1311)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
m.r.bob wrote:
This is just a matter of pressing one button though.
It's one button + the frame advance button, which makes 2 buttons at once. That's more than some keyboards can handle, if it's the wrong 2 buttons that is. (You're using the input display to check what was pressed, right?)
m.r.bob wrote:
/me makes topic
Go ahead and make it if you're going to - I wasn't sure if I should post this reply here or wait for a new topic to appear...
Posted: 1/21/2006 11:20 PM
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m.r.bob
Joined: 12/30/2005
Posts: 57
It turns out I was just being really stupid. You half anwsered my question and I figured the rest out by myself.
Posted: 1/22/2006 1:23 AM
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jimsfriend
Former player
Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign
Thanks for the reply Fabian, it probably is just a graphics glitch. Another thing I thought up that has probably been tested before: if you are in a p-run and doing the hop trick then land at the very last frame of a level, would you be able to jump on the first frame of the next level to continue the p-run? If it would work anywhere I would think after fortresses and castles because in normal levels you cut the tape and then walk slowly. In castles and fortresses there is no Mario movement after the level finishes except on the world map. If we are lucky it uses the walking slowly to erase the p-run rather than automatically calling it zero at the beginning of every level. Maybe not castles because of the Mario destroys the castle scene. Saw this on the SMW tricks page
Variant: Pass through floors (SMW) In some levels (caves), ducking in a space that is becoming too small may sometimes result in passing through the floor. TODO: Explain better
_In some levels (caves), ducking in a space that is becoming too small and spin jumping at the right moment may sometimes result in passing through the floor. This can also be used with a big Mario (feather, fireflower, mushroom of peach) when in a short corridor (the height of a small Mario). Simply spin jump and it will sometimes result in passing through the floor._ (My proposal for what it could say). Another thing that might be worth looking into is whether flying through a space that is becoming too small and then spinning at the right moment (which makes Mario stand up straight) would make you fly through the floor. I don't know what the game recognizes as the height of a flying Mario except that it is taller than a ducking Mario. Whether it is smaller than a standing Mario I do not know.
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Posted: 1/22/2006 3:39 AM
(Edited: 1/22/2006 3:45 AM)
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m.r.bob
Joined: 12/30/2005
Posts: 57
m.r.bob wrote:
Fabian wrote:
I thought you meant the Forest of Illusion one, and I couldn't remember what that level looked like, so I did this for fun (I'm bored tonight). Nothing very amazing about this video though :)
I finally figured out why it wouldn't work, I was right clicking and saying "save target as". Anyways, I meant the secret forest of illusion exit you fool!
If you want something done, you have to do it yourself.
Posted: 1/22/2006 3:44 AM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
You accidentally forgot the link address after the =
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 1/22/2006 3:45 AM
(Edited: 1/22/2006 3:50 AM)
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m.r.bob
Joined: 12/30/2005
Posts: 57
Geez, give me a second to upload... :P (I had trouble with my normal file dump, so I used the DeHacked's one for movie files that everyone seems to be using). You responded about 2 seconds after I posted. Ok, it's there now, my first movie. Anyways, I offically know how to make TOSs. It's really easy once you get the hang of it, unless you want your run to actially have some quality that is. Yes Farbian, I shamelessly stole 90% of it from you. What's really wierd is that the 100% exit run that viper did didn't use that exit. I thought it was supposed to be all exits? In my opinion some entertainment value was lost by not doing that exit.
Posted: 1/22/2006 3:49 AM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
That explains why I had no idea what you guys were talking about. I've never run past the first door, had no idea there was a lava pool and another boss door. Nice
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 1/22/2006 3:52 AM
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m.r.bob
Joined: 12/30/2005
Posts: 57
So if I were to actually attempt to do some kind of capeless run, what kinds of times would be acceptable for an 11 exit SMW run? What I mean is that I don't want to submit something I think is good, but will get me flamed for submitting.
Posted: 1/22/2006 4:05 AM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
I understand what you mean. There's a new submission thread going right now where people act like jerks to the submitter. Stupid people. Basically, it should be as fast as possible (thanks for pointing that out). If there are visible mistakes in it people won't like it. I suggest you post what you've done in this thread as you progress, and we'll give you pointers on where you lose speed if necessary and how to correct it. Remember to plan what you do carefully, so you don't find yourself in a situation you can't get out of without speed loss. This also helps because you "should" know what to do at all times, ie. don't play a level all the way through and when you reach the tricky end of the level try to figure out how to get past it. Plan ahead and decide how the end should be done before you begin the level in the first place. A general tip about Super Mario World is this: Always think about whether or not ducking would save a few frames in spots where it's impossible to not lose at least a little bit of speed. A good example is where you jumped up to the top corridor in the Forest Fortress. You ran to the left, jumped, and turned to the right. A perfect execution of that would be to jump on the first frame possible without hitting your head, and turn right the first frame possible without touching the wall/ceiling/ground, and holding B just so long that you get on top of the platform. Now if you duck when you jump, you can begin the sequence a few frames earlier = gained time. So try to consider if ducking is useful in spots like that. I might share more general things to keep in mind as we see your progress, all I'll say now is good luck :)
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 1/22/2006 4:32 AM
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m.r.bob
Joined: 12/30/2005
Posts: 57
You ran to the left, jumped, and turned to the right. A perfect execution of that would be to jump on the first frame possible without hitting your head, and turn right the first frame possible without touching the wall/ceiling/ground, and holding B just so long that you get on top of the platform. Now if you duck when you jump, you can begin the sequence a few frames earlier = gained time. So try to consider if ducking is useful in spots like that.
So what you saying is a. Not hiting the ceiling saves time b. try to hit the floor sooner The anwser I was fishing for was something like "don't even try to pass off anything longer then 15 minutes, and make sure you never stop, if you stop you can kiss your dreams goodbye", but I like your reply better. Anyways, if you live on the east cost of the USA, goodnight. EDIT: Crap, that's not what you were saying... I'm confused, I didn't even hit my head there, I skimmed the ceiling. Wait, nm, I see now, but I'm not going to do it tonight.
Posted: 1/22/2006 4:38 AM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Yeah I sorta understand what you had in mind, but it's impossible to give a ballpark figure like that since it's never been done before. The problem with hitting the ceiling is that you go right back down on the floor, which is not where you want to be. So the fastest way to do it is to jump when you're so far to the left that you won't hit the ceiling anymore. If you duckjump, this moment occurs a few frames earlier than if you jump regularly = saved time. I wish I lived on the east coast of the USA. Well, I don't, but at least I'd be going to bed at a better time. I live in Sweden and it's 5.30 am here. Bedtime for me too I suppose. Edit: Yeah I wasn't saying you needed to improve that video, that's not necessary. I just used it to illustrate what I meant with ducking vs not ducking. Good night.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 1/22/2006 4:42 AM
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m.r.bob
Joined: 12/30/2005
Posts: 57
Ok, I lied. I attempted it again, and discovered that croching is not worth it, because then you lose the running speed you need in that upper coridor. Anyway, you only gain 5 frames max by jumping earlier. (bye)
Posted: 1/22/2006 4:48 AM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
When you duck, only hold down for one frame, the same frame you start jumping. The rest will take care of itself. (bye)
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 1/22/2006 5:28 AM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
NES TAS of 2008 Speedy TAS of 2008 SNES TASer of 2007 TAS of 2007 SNES TAS of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
A good way to learn strategies to games that have existing runs is to watch them in the emulator with "show controller input" turned on (default button is the comma). The way I think of a certain level is to draw a path where you need to go, then think of the path as a string of sorts. When this string is tightened, it will hug all the corners. Try to follow this same path as precisely as possible.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 1/22/2006 1:05 PM
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VIPer7
Former player
Joined: 10/17/2004
Posts: 226
Location: Bonn, Germany
Just wanted to tell you that I'm really curious how this will turn out :) It's been almost a year that I did this run, and I haven't played the game at all for more than half a year I think, so I won't be of much help. You've probably read all my comments about the run already, especially the things that I considered improvable back then. So many new tricks that have been discovered since then... I'm looking forward to it :) *sigh* did I kill this thread? :(
Posted: 1/22/2006 6:50 PM
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m.r.bob
Joined: 12/30/2005
Posts: 57
Wait, there is such a button? I was thinking to myself "damn, if only there was a way to make it show what the guy who made the movie was pressing", and there is. Well, thx for enlightening me. Anyways, I have the first level done. I'm doing a small mario run, which is kind of redudant because Jimsfriend is doing one to, but whatever. It is 1 frame slower then the flagitious,viper7 run (going by the time when Mario flashes the peace sign). 1 FRAME! What the hell do you do differently when the difference is 1 lousy frame. BTW, that run is 100% my work, totally... I definatly started completely from scrach (the different intro jump during the long annoying "welcome to SMW screen is proof of this) *shifty*
Posted: 1/22/2006 8:36 PM
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DK64_MASTER
Joined: 10/24/2005
Posts: 1080
Location: San Jose
Charging Chuck = bad. Jumping on them loses 2-4 frames (not sure the exact number). Collect more coins. :) You missed a dragon coin. Other than that, it's all good. You'll learn the nuances of SMW soon enough (I don't know them at all, though, except for the Charging Chuck thing, since it was mentioned back when gwing, JXQ, and Fabian were working on their first SDW:TLC run). And maybe you can use the jumping glitch, although I'm not sure how that works (you have to gain maximum velocity, and never stop jumping, whenever you hit the ground, you jump as early as possible (1 frame after hitting the ground) or something). If you are serious about challenging the run, it might be nice to learn how to hex edit, which I'm sure members can explain to you (I dunno how :().
<agill> banana banana banana terracotta pie! <Shinryuu> ho-la terracotta barba-ra anal-o~
Posted: 1/22/2006 8:57 PM
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m.r.bob
Joined: 12/30/2005
Posts: 57
The movie was obviously hex editted. I thought that it would be evident. Also, if chargin chuck loses 2 frames minimum, then how am I only 1 frame behind?
Posted: 1/22/2006 9:12 PM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
m.r.bob wrote:
If you want something done, you have to do it yourself.
Thanks. I've been wondering what's been back there for years. Now someone did it for me!
Posted: 1/22/2006 9:14 PM
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qqwref
Player (138)
Joined: 8/27/2004
Posts: 165
If you're aiming for maximum goals, by the way, I think the movie (or at least the .avi) should include going to the main screen to check out how many exits have been completed. I don't want to have to count...
Posted: 1/22/2006 10:19 PM
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m.r.bob
Joined: 12/30/2005
Posts: 57
Don't worry, you will know the number of exits completed. I won't force anybody to count anything. EDIT: I tried the next level and I lost a ton of frames, so I thought I'd polish the first level. I do a neat shell trick, I release it, and then I hit it spinning coming down. I also made up that one frame I lost because of hitting charging chuck, instead I soar over him this time. No one should both dling it, I'm mainly putting it up here just in case I accidentally mess a file up. Later: A goddamn 1 frame difference in the fadeout. My movie is slower then viper's and it's because the stupid random fadeout takes 1 frame longer.
Posted: 1/23/2006 3:10 AM
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jimsfriend
Former player
Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign
Well darn, I was hoping small mario run would remain TAS free until I was done, but since it isn't, I might as well help you with what I know since you guys helped me. I think I have pretty much the fastest route through all levels figured out, plus a few TAS tricks that you could use that I can not use (inside individual levels to cut off a little time). The biggest difference between your run and mine will probably be bowsers castle. I use door 8 because it is 100% random-free while door 7 is almost certain death for me. If you want my help let me know how you want it. I can explain the entire run as I see it on console+TAS tricks that might be doable or I can go level by level as you proceed through the run. And for those of you looking forward to my run and don't want to see spoilers I suggest you don't read any further posts by me in this topic.
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Posted: 1/23/2006 3:54 AM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
NES TAS of 2008 Speedy TAS of 2008 SNES TASer of 2007 TAS of 2007 SNES TAS of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
m.r.bob wrote:
My movie is slower then viper's and it's because the stupid random fadeout takes 1 frame longer.
Frustrating, no? If you feel like correcting it, the only way known is to try different things randomly through the level (like collecting different coins) to see if it changes. One easy test to compare it with getting the stars at the end of the level. Sometimes this does the trick. Personally, I don't like messing with it, it's usually not worth it, and no one notices when watching in real-time anyway.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 1/23/2006 4:01 AM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Are you sure about the small run bob? I think it wouldn't be fair to jimsfriend, who I understand have worked very hard with his run. He's helped me out a lot with route strategies for my upcoming 96 exit run, and I wouldn't want to ruin his own run, I'd much prefer to be surprised and very impressed with his run when he's finished than watching it as a TAS first. At least this way you won't have to worry about duckjumping, right? ;) Remember a non-cape run hasn't been done either way, so wouldn't it be nicer to have both a small and a non-small run? Another consideration for you is that the levels where you could use Yoshi (Donut Plains 1, Star World 4) will become much faster and easier for you. Well anyway at least think about it ok? If I were you I wouldn't worry about fadeout lag. In the two full runs (VIPer7's, JXQ's and mine) it's been ignored, and in the fast runs it's been optimized. As I understand it it's quite tedious (?) and boring, but if you want to, basically what you need to do is stomp different enemies, take different coins, jump at different times etc. Basically anything that might change the randomness, and try until you succeed. About YI3. The key in this level is to run on the moving platforms for as long as possible. I'm guessing the reason you lose frames compared to the 11 exit version is that when jumping to one moving platform onto another, you could either a) jump from the first as late as possible (remember to spinjump by the way, those jumps are shorter), landing about halfway through on the second. or b) jump about halfway through on the first, so you land on the second as soon as possible. In the 96 exit movie, a) is used. In the improved 11 exit movie, b) is used. I don't know if this is the only reason, or the complete reason, the 11 exit level is faster, so I can't guarantee this will completely solve the problem. I hope it does though.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 1/23/2006 4:19 AM
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jimsfriend
Former player
Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign
I think it wouldn't be fair to jimsfriend, who I understand have worked very hard with his run.
I agree. I have worked very hard on my run (it isn't an exageration to say I played an average of at least 2 hours every day for the past 6 months, some of the tricks are _very_ hard). On a happier note, the DP1 secret exit is coming along quite nicely. I have succeeded once and almost succeeded a couple of others. With a little more practice it should be one of the easier tricks in the run.
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