You could add a couple of more words to creative and ambitious, Hopper!
Words like: Daring, brave, crazy, cool, super, awesome, ludicrous, and last of all, STAR. ;)
Edit:
Oh and Hopper... Don't you feel it's like a paradox to say that this will be the most creative TAS in history so far and then saying it won't get a star before you even watched it? =D
Sure.. I agree that one really should watch a run before judging really. But it sounds funny when you said that it "is one of the most creative and ambitious TAS projects I've heard of" and then not give it a star. :)
Hehe.. Oh well... Perhaps I'm just bored and picky right now eh?
Time to do something more serious. Like getting dressed and get to work.. Guess I could wait another hour or so. :D
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
moozooh wrote:
Walker Boh wrote:
Fantastic though that you can use it in your TAS
Well it's not that fantastic since Red Scarlet and other famous speedrunners have already performed this trick exactly at that point in the game back on the SNES, simply because there is no faster way of grabbing that super missile pack. :) If you're interested, have a look at the SDA, they've got it all.
Aha, I did not know that. Sometimes I get confused over the amount of Super Metroid movies out there, and unfortunately I usualy watch the TAS'es when there are several to choose from, even though speedruns is very impressive too. Anyway, I think it's cool that this trick is showable and useful in a speedly movie of some sort.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
How can you people start discussing if Saturns upcoming run is "star material"? With all due respect to Saturn, we have not seen anything (besides his short avi clips) from his current run, and once he is done with the run, then it would be more suitable to discuss if it deserves a star or not. Im not trying to pull down peoples enthusiasm or bringing negativity to this thread but as you all know, there is a lot of important issues a certain movie must fulfil in order to get a star, and thats what we'll know in a few months. Also (similar to the discussion about the Mega Man runs), if Saturns run would get a well-deserved star, shouldnt then JXQ's 100% get a star? Shouldnt whoever does a any% run also receive a star (of course, assuming the run is worthy a star)? Then we would have four runs of a similar game having a star. So there are some issues to think about.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
How can you people start discussing if Saturns upcoming run is "star material"? With all due respect to Saturn, we have not seen anything (besides his short avi clips) from his current run, and once he is done with the run, then it would be more suitable to discuss if it deserves a star or not.
Actually, nobody said it will definitely get a star, either. ;) We just express our opinion, based not only on the material already seen (the demos), but on the whole idea of the run either.
Being in fact one of the most nonlinear action games on the SNES, Super Metroid can be beaten using hundreds of combinations of different routes, tricks and glitches. What do we see here is a run that uses all the best speed tactics to date (mad props go to Michael Flatley for arm-pump running) with a rather shocking penalty (running suitless; nothing could be worse actually) and the craziest sequence break possible in this game at all. As far as I remember, starred videos are meant to show unexperienced visitors what can be achieveable when using emulators, with these emulator-specific tricks being clearly visible and entertaining as well. The only fact that can still prevent this run from getting a star is possibe sluggishness in the Maridia (without a gravity suit, it could turn out really slow) that will stretch the timer pretty well.
AngerFist wrote:
as you all know, there is a lot of important issues a certain movie must fulfil in order to get a star, and thats what we'll know in a few months. Also (similar to the discussion about the Mega Man runs), if Saturns run would get a well-deserved star, shouldnt then JXQ's 100% get a star? Shouldnt whoever does a any% run also receive a star (of course, assuming the run is worthy a star)? Then we would have four runs of a similar game having a star. So there are some issues to think about.
And what makes you think we didn't think about that? %)
I think I said enough on my reasoning, and come to think about it:
Besides, I never really liked Megaman (especially on 8-bit era consoles), because of its linearity and, well, "arcadeness", and, as I see it, most of the time saving tricks in its TASes can be performed on a console (based on game physics, which is death simple compared to that of SM; I'm not blaming Megaman for this, but it is really so) — the main difference is that TAS is a speedrun without mistakes (I could be wrong though, but not very much). If you're familiar with SM physics and actual gameplay at least as I am, you do know that most of the SM time saving glitches are pretty hard to perform on a console, and some of them are pretty well impossible to do without frame advance (just because they need to be frame-perfect to work). The time difference between normal SM speedrun even without mistakes on a top of human possibilities (!) and a really good TAS is measured by tens of minutes, not even tens of seconds! Hardly an arguable point, isn't it? ;)
If it still doesn't convince you I'm talking about getting a star as conciously as I could (however, the final result matters most, I agree with you on it), then I don't know what else to say. For me, this run already deserves a star once complete, without a doubt. If it doesn't for you, I'm fine with that. No reason to argue about.
What about JXQ's upcoming 100% run and the next any% run (I don't know who will be the next one ready to do sub-20 min run; Saturn started to do it but switched to his current project and I don't know if he'll return to any%): well, if they will prove themselves worthy, then why not? Our point is to provide entertainment and all that stuff. ;)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
This is purely speculation, but it might be because what little Saturn has posted in the form of teasers I daresay is unquestionably considered star material.
Most are assuming Saturn will maintain this quality throughout the run, and I think none of us, least Saturn himself, would expect any less.
Come to think of it, I haven't seen as much "hype" here on the site as there could deservedly be (Maybe we're all afraid to jinx it. ;-) and those I've seen receive acclaim get it for good reason.
This run will naturally be judged on the same grounds as all other existing runs on the site, but this appears to be the epitome of a well-planned and executed run, as far as I know one. Personally, I don't see how this could not get a star. (I'd be hard pressed to see something other than the objective interfering.)
Andreas
This is purely speculation, but it might be because what little Saturn has posted in the form of teasers I daresay is unquestionably considered star material.
Most are assuming Saturn will maintain this quality throughout the run, and I think none of us, least Saturn himself, would expect any less.
Come to think of it, I haven't seen as much "hype" here on the site as there could deservedly be (Maybe we're all afraid to jinx it. ;-) and those I've seen receive acclaim get it for good reason.
Well of course, this may be so. I find Super Metroid a game that is really able to produce such a hype mainly because of the flexibility and variability I mentioned in my previous post. If you remember Michael Flatley's almost-legendary incomplete 100% run, you'll notice exactly the same hype. ;D
Why? Because there were tons of new tricks never seen before. Because he was actually able (and proved it, as well) to push the limits so far no one could really imagine. A clear reason, provided with WIPs admired by everyone.
The funny thing is at that moment everyone (including Michael himself) thought his run was frame-perfect in every aspect, and now, if you look here, you'll notice Saturn managed to surpass even that result. So, this hype has a fairly solid base. :D Therefore I have no doubts concerning the overall quality of this run (and not just the parts of it showed in the video).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I don't doubt his abilities, so I won't say anything further. I love what I've seen so far. I just don't like to count my stars before they're hatched.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
What's the nature of the one-way gate that stops you from entering lower norfair through the back door? If it's possible to use a crystal flash to get the Spore Spawn super missile, is it possible to use one to skip the huge lava pit blocking the front door?
Alternatively, is it possible to shinespark out of that lava pit without the gravity and varia suits?
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
moozooh wrote:
Actually, nobody said it will definitely get a star, either. ;) We just express our opinion, based not only on the material already seen (the demos), but on the whole idea of the run either.
You are right, I should have pointed out that I reacted this way after Highness last post in this thread.
moozooh wrote:
The only fact that can still prevent this run from getting a star is possibe sluggishness in the Maridia (without a gravity suit, it could turn out really slow) that will stretch the timer pretty well.
And the fact that you have to more or less regularly getting (in the beginning and depending on how many life tanks Saturn will take) health. That being said, there might be a possibility that some parts of the run will be tedious but of course, I could be very wrong depending what Saturn will produce.
moozooh wrote:
Besides, I never really liked Megaman (especially on 8-bit era consoles), because of its linearity and, well, "arcadeness", and, as I see it, most of the time saving tricks in its TASes can be performed on a console (based on game physics, which is death simple compared to that of SM
I completely dont understand why you would figure most of the time saving tricks in a Mega Man game can easier be performed on a console compared with the tricks of Super Metroid, which is complete bs. If you really wanna compare, lets compare Rockman vs. Super Metroid. Which game/tricks is easier to perform in a console? Have you seen Bisqwits Rockman-TAS? You still convinced that its "death simple" as you said it to do Mega Man tricks than Super Metroid tricks? Lets see someone on a console zip through walls through the Magnet Beam, using the pause tricks+ switching to ice beam in order to go through that area in Fireman, lets see someone use the elevator trick in order to "fly" upwards through a certain zone (like for instance in Elecman). Point is, Rockman is far more glitchier and trickier than Super Metroid and obviously cannot be performed on a console, certainly not after several dozen times.
moozooh wrote:
For me, this run already deserves a star once complete, without a doubt.
Thats wrong thinking. Once its done and viewed objectively, then you should say if its star worthy.
moozooh wrote:
well, if they will prove themselves worthy, then why not?
Assuming this will be the case, people will question if its alright to give four separate runs of the same game a star. At least thats the impression I got knowing how many stars the Mega Man runs have.
This is my last post about this discussion as I dont want to bring more negativity to this thread.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
My main worry is seeing games like Super Metroid and Super Mario World get "oversaturated" with lots of slightly different runs. I think you can reach a point where people have seen enough kinds of playthroughs of a game that it isn't worth making a new movie for. I would rather see runs for new games or improvements of old runs than more "let's think up a silly restriction" runs. But I can't tell you what to do, and this movie idea seems popular anyway, so go ahead if you want.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
What's the nature of the one-way gate that stops you from entering lower norfair through the back door? If it's possible to use a crystal flash to get the Spore Spawn super missile, is it possible to use one to skip the huge lava pit blocking the front door?
The 1-way gate has the green target to the right. Only ones that have the target to the left can be gotten through backwards. (I am referring to the green gate that leads from the right side of the green Norfair bubble room to the secret area of Deep Norfair..hopefully this is the same one you were talking about)
Bag Of Magic Food wrote:
I think you can reach a point where people have seen enough kinds of playthroughs of a game that it isn't worth making a new movie for. I would rather see runs for new games or improvements of old runs than more "let's think up a silly restriction" runs.
Prime example of this for me is the Super Metroid NBMB run. To be blunt, I think this run is just retarded. The "rules" were just pulled out of thin air. It's neat to know how many items are accessible without fighting the bosses in theory, but a run of it is boring to me, and it doesn't even finish the game. In contrast, Saturn's RBO run is definitely an out-there goal, but I think it will be more of a complete and entertaining run (although it won't be without its slow parts). I'm not sure how entertaining I'll find it until I watch it.
Angerfist wrote:
I completely dont understand why you would figure most of the time saving tricks in a Mega Man game can easier be performed on a console compared with the tricks of Super Metroid, which is complete bs.
Who cares whether the tricks are possible in real time or not if we are comparing TASs? To me, the two games fall into different categories of glitchiness. Mega Man games seem more "broken" (at least the first 2) to me than this game, but that's probably the difference between NES and SNES. Angerfist, I don't think anyone is trying to insult Mega Man or say that your runs didn't require hard work. I always thought that Super Metroid was unique in the amount of glitches (real-time possible or otherwise) that saved time, and in the complete freedom of exploration and route taking. (To be fair, Mega Man has some of the route-taking element because you can visit the stages in any order you wish)
About stars: I think too much emphasis is placed on them. We all have our favorite runs on this site based on what we find entertaining. Not to take anything away from Bisqwit, but these stars are (mostly) his favorites. Why should his favorites be more important than anyone else's? Everyone's got their own star list. Some people will include Mega Man, some Super Metroid, some both, and some neither.
I'm not sure what my point was, I just wanted to hear myself talk on the subject (well, at least I'm being honest).
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I give my best to keep the quality of the run thoroughly not only in the demo scenes. The Maridia part won't be that slow (overall it should be not longer than 15 min in total with returning) because the pumping arms trick works even in water which increases my speed and gives a much better acceleration which is the most useful thing. And don't worry about the additional item collecting in Brinstar, it will allow me to show many additional crazy tricks which would be lost otherwise and it really won't take much time to get this items.
moozooh wrote:
Saturn, have you finally managed to get past Mt. Doom one of the faster ways while testing (if tested at all)?
Yes I tested this part and there is no way around freezing the crabs to get up there. However (not sure if mentioned here already) I found a way to 1-wall jump up even in water (slow but still) which will cut some time in Mt. Doom because I won't have to freeze the crabs that often this way.
I'm glad you guys like my idea and the run so much. This gives me an enormous amount of motivation to work on it further, thank you all!
I completely dont understand why you would figure most of the time saving tricks in a Mega Man game can easier be performed on a console compared with the tricks of Super Metroid, which is complete bs. If you really wanna compare, lets compare Rockman vs. Super Metroid. Which game/tricks is easier to perform in a console? Have you seen Bisqwits Rockman-TAS? You still convinced that its "death simple" as you said it to do Mega Man tricks than Super Metroid tricks? Lets see someone on a console zip through walls through the Magnet Beam, using the pause tricks+ switching to ice beam in order to go through that area in Fireman, lets see someone use the elevator trick in order to "fly" upwards through a certain zone (like for instance in Elecman). Point is, Rockman is far more glitchier and trickier than Super Metroid and obviously cannot be performed on a console, certainly not after several dozen times.
Well you've obviously missed my point. I was talking about "death simple" physics of the game ("physics" means such things as G-force, moving speed, momentum, air control, etc. — NOT the programming errors!), which affect every type and direction of moving. Rockman is clearly glitchier than SM, but not a single bit trickier (as almost all the speed tricks of Rockman are in fact another glitches). Yes Rockman is already hoyled to death by Bisqwit (and AFAIR, he mentioned the possibility), but as the game itself, it doesn't require such careful route planning and attention to small yet important physic aspects, IMO.
From what I learned reading Megaman tricks guide, all the main time saving glitches are based on a similar principles (like looped screen exploit, sprite collision exploit and such), and I see no problem using them on a console (I admit I haven't test them for myself, however).
AngerFist wrote:
Thats wrong thinking. Once its done and viewed objectively, then you should say if its star worthy.
Viewed objectively? :D You're joking, right?
I am not absolute enough for that, sorry. There won't be any objective viewing for a man, ever. You must cope with that, sorry.
And subjectively, I've found everything I needed to vote for a star for this particular run.
AngerFist wrote:
Assuming this will be the case, people will question if its alright to give four separate runs of the same game a star. At least thats the impression I got knowing how many stars the Mega Man runs have.
What's the fourth one, actually? We're talking about RBO, 100% and any% ones, aren't we? However I, too, think that giving a star to more than two different types of run for the same game is wrong; one run should be as fast as possible (any%), and the other should be really fancy (like a RBO run, for example). 100% runs are made mostly for the fans, as they don't usually attract newcomers (and they are much longer than any%, as well).
AngerFist wrote:
This is my last post about this discussion as I dont want to bring more negativity to this thread
Well if you want to discuss this matter with me further, we could continue via PM. That will be ok.
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
My main worry is seeing games like Super Metroid and Super Mario World get "oversaturated" with lots of slightly different runs. I think you can reach a point where people have seen enough kinds of playthroughs of a game that it isn't worth making a new movie for. I would rather see runs for new games or improvements of old runs than more "let's think up a silly restriction" runs.
Well that's exactly the point people invent those silly restriction: to make the run look more fresh, more complex, more innovative and just look not like the others.
Edit: Saturn wrote:
And don't worry about the additional item collecting in Brinstar, it will allow me to show many additional crazy tricks which would be lost otherwise
See what I mean? ;)
Moreover, there are some well known rule sets for making penalty runs of different RPGs, like the "Iron man" rule: PC must never return to starting town (or up a level depending on the game); and all the others, again depending on the game itself.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I found a way to 1-wall jump up even in water (slow but still) which will cut some time in Mt. Doom because I won't have to freeze the crabs that often this way.
Gah, I found out about this idea awhile back and totally forgot to mention that it would probably help here, sorry! But as usual, you found the trick anyway :)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
moozooh wrote:
What's the fourth one, actually?
Terima's no-murder-beam run.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
About underwater walljumping, wobbling is never cool. ;D
I honestly hate the underwater wall jump (hold d-pad 2 frames against the wall, do a wall jump, repeat.) as much as I hate the arm wobbling.
100% runs are made mostly for the fans, as they don't usually attract newcomers (and they are much longer than any%, as well).
Heh, I figured 100% runs were more for newcomers because they show just about everything in the game.
moozooh wrote:
Well that's exactly the point people invent those silly restriction: to make the run look more fresh, more complex, more innovative and just look not like the others.
Oh... Um... Well my point was that you can't keep doing that and still appeal to people who aren't big fans of the game. It seems like just reaching for excuses to make extra movies of the same game, but whatever.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
But this is the same as any%, the difference is that Murder Beam glitch looks so ugly no one really likes it. And it doesn't really save much time when done in a TAS, either.
Anyway, Terima's current any% is a bit outdated: with all these new tricks and glitches uncovered it can (and should) be redone much quicklier.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
1. Any% (does not use murder beam)
2. 100%
3. LOW% (14%, also does not use murder beam simply because there aren't enough beams collected to do it)
4. RBO
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Heh, I figured 100% runs were more for newcomers because they show just about everything in the game.
Do they really give a damn about everything in the game? Doubt that…
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
Well my point was that you can't keep doing that and still appeal to people who aren't big fans of the game.
Actually, most of the time that kind of runs are done by the fans and for the fans of the game, or else they're pretty pointless.
Graveworm wrote:
Not too much time can be cut, most certainly only a minute or two.
Well, if MF was 13.5 seconds ahead of Terima at super missile/mockball room, and Saturn was 0.3 seconds ahead of MF at Ceres, I expect three to five minutes overall improvement, based on the:
• faster moving while arm pumping constantly (a sure minute only for that);
• frame perfect jumping (especially walljumping and climbing small heights);
• frame perfect falling (also using the advantages of G-force to fall faster through the exploding blocks and vertical doors);
• creative and frame perfect mockballing (ideally, it should be used every time Samus is obliged to travel a distance in ball form, just like in the end of Saturn's second video);
• more creative use of superjumps and short charge boosts when possible (and it looks pretty cool, also);
• using doppler effect on every boss possible to shoot faster;
• exploiting the possibility of hitting an enemy (I'm talking mainly about Ridley, if it's possible at all) twice with a single charged plasma shot;
• manipulating unavoidable enemies (such as ninja pirates) such a way which allows you to kill them simultaneously or without any serious slowdowns;
• just more accurate playing (eg. setting a power bomb off just before a boss becomes vulnerable to inflict additional damage without wasting any time, manipulating luck to get all the powerups you need along your way, etc.).
I think even a 5 minute improvement to Terima's run is possible this way.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
woah, this whole discussion turned into something.. well.. something not smooth.
So I'll just add one question.
Saturn wrote:
I'm glad you guys like my idea and the run so much. This gives me an enormous amount of motivation to work on it further, thank you all!
If kind words can motivate you to work faster, how much kind words would it take to have you finish the run in.. say.. one week? I'm prepared to type all night if needed :p
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Tub wrote:
If kind words can motivate you to work faster, how much kind words would it take to have you finish the run in.. say.. one week? I'm prepared to type all night if needed :p
Seems like this thread went off-topic a bit right?
There are threads for further discussing this.
I'm sorry for starting a bad trend here. Really just wanted to express my gratitude for Saturns efforts in completing this run to bring us all a dropped jaw when it's finished!
I was just thinking in funny lines..
Is there a way to exploit when getting an item, like sort of break loose from the paused interval when the song plays as you get the item?
Could there be some benefits if it's possible? Like enemies disappearing and gravity being normalized?
IF at all possible of course. :D
