Part of the ocean freezes blah blah blah.
I like both for different reasons. A lot of people here share the same views. Don't compare yourself with the other camp.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
FODA wrote:
No, warp. People can't tell the difference between a TAS and a normal Speedrun, so that comparison does not apply.
Really? The people making them can't tell the difference?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
Like Max]I[muS-X said, they don't make it for their own pleasure and keep it in a box where noone can see. The fact that people will want to look at the run and be impressed helps a lot as encouragement to spend months training and perfecting the game.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
FODA wrote:
Like Max]I[muS-X said, they don't make it for their own pleasure and keep it in a box where noone can see. The fact that people will want to look at the run and be impressed helps a lot as encouragement to spend months training and perfecting the game.
I do make it for my own pleasure.
And your comment about people doing it for other reasons then themselves is unrelated to Warp's and my analogies, thus your point of others can't tell the difference is invalid.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
How is it unrelated? if you said someone used steroids to endure the pain of walking on ice, then yea, that'd be a good comparison as a tool-assisted south pole walk, but using "take a plane there" makes no sense because it's different type of "walking to the south pole".
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
When people walk to the south pole they do it for themself.
Those walking to the south poll on steroids do it so others can see them.
Those flying in a plain just want to be at the southpoll.
I asked where are the other people who do it for themself. You tell me you can't tell difference if they had steroids or not.
I tell you it's unrelated to the person doing it for themself what it looks like to others.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Then why don't all of them take steroids? And what about the ones that don't have the media running after them?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
He made the runs for people to watch. Not all speedrunners finish games for themselves.
So it's pointless FOR HIM to keep on going if noone can tell the difference between a TAS and a speedrun, except that the TAS is clearly better. This is where that analogy failed because taking a copter or jetpack or plane is clearly different than walking or climbing.
Yes, there are speedrunners who don't care if there are tases. But he does, and we were discussing why that was.
If you wanted to question why he was making runs just for people to watch, then get to the point.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
I quote my first statement I made in this thread.
People need to take pride in what they do, not what the result looks like to everyone else.
I got to the point already.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
FODA wrote:
then what is this?
Nach wrote:
FODA wrote:
No, warp. People can't tell the difference between a TAS and a normal Speedrun, so that comparison does not apply.
Really? The people making them can't tell the difference?
My response that we who take pride in our work don't care to your observation that bystandards don't know what's going on inside.
FODA wrote:
he didn't make it for himself, he made it for people who will watch it. those are the people who can't tell the difference.
Yes. So what happened to people that do take pride in their work?
I hate to reitterate, but people still climb mountains, and people still walk to the pole, they didn't quit because of the invention of steroids or planes or whatever.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
There was no argument. FODA thought we were comparing this guy to a runner or climber.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
You can't compare the satisfaction of achieving a great human feat like walking to the South Pole and beating a video game in x amount of time...
Yes, SOME people will climb a mountain or walk to the South Pole just to prove to themselves that they can do it. But this is a PHYSICAL endeavor, and it is very rewarding emotionally. It pushes your body to it's limit. You are experiencing and accomplishing things in the environment your body and mind are "designed" to appreciate.
I don't think I should have to break down exactly how doing something extremely physical is much more "reality" grounded and is therefore more self-rewarding than beating some video game quickly. For example, I don't think you'll meet many people who's life's goal is to beat Super Mario Brothers 3 in 10 minutes, regardless of who sees it. That would be pretty sad.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
"Max wrote:
I[muS-X"]You can't compare the satisfaction of achieving a great human feat like walking to the South Pole and beating a video game in x amount of time...
Yes, SOME people will climb a mountain or walk to the South Pole just to prove to themselves that they can do it. But this is a PHYSICAL endeavor, and it is very rewarding emotionally. It pushes your body to it's limit. You are experiencing and accomplishing things in the environment your body and mind are "designed" to appreciate.
I don't think I should have to break down exactly how doing something extremely physical is much more "reality" grounded and is therefore more self-rewarding than beating some video game quickly. For example, I don't think you'll meet many people who's life's goal is to beat Super Mario Brothers 3 in 10 minutes, regardless of who sees it. That would be pretty sad.
Since I'm a programmer and type a lot, I get a lot more enjoyment from an achievement of my fingers, than one of feet. My mastery of a game means more to me than walking to the southpoll.
And not everyone's mind is designed to appreciate the same thing. People tell me oh look what a beautiful day and are all happy, and I'm cranky because I don't like so bright light.
Some people enjoy going around smelling various perfumes, while I prefer oxygen with as little polution as possible.
We are not all the same.
Now while I agree it's rediculous to see a game as some great feat, I rank it above that of a fully physical sport. However I rank both below a feat of the mind.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3572)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
I don't think you'll meet many people who's life's goal is to beat Super Mario Brothers 3 in 10 minutes, regardless of who sees it. That would be pretty sad.
lol, good point
Nach wrote:
Now while I agree it's rediculous to see a game as some great feat, I rank it above that of a fully physical sport. However I rank both below a feat of the mind.
even better point and more what the TAS/speedrun thing is all about. Speedruns are impressive feat of the body (reflexes) while the TAS is feat of the mind. Personally, I am more impressed by the mind than the body.
Well, my point was really to show that beating a video game should never be on the same level as some of the examples they were trying to compare it with.
I agree we are all different and have different tastes, and accomplishments of the mind are pretty rewarding too. I DO think however, that a physical accomplishment will be far more rewarding than a mental one in the long run, for just about anybody. When I think back to the best memories in my life, they weren't things I thought about, they were things I DID. I'm majoring in Game Programming and I like to be creative and create things with programming also, but they don't provide me with the happiest of my memories.
I also disagree that TAS's are more impressive than runs done by hand. Both require mental effort and planning, but the regular runner has to take into account his abilities as well, and then work harder for the final product. Simply having the imagination to think of the fastest way possible through a level, and discovering glitches, are indeed problem-solving skills and puzzles I most enjoy, but I think most people can accomplish this to a degree of similarity.
/offtopic
I[muS-X"]I also disagree that TAS's are more impressive than runs done by hand. Both require mental effort and planning, but the regular runner has to take into account his abilities as well, and then work harder for the final product.
I disagree. A regular speedrunner surely doesn't have to work harder than a TASer (neither does the TASer). It's a whole different thing, and you can't say one is harder than the other. (I could write a lot about this... but I'll leave it at this.)
"Max wrote:
I[muS-X"]I don't think I should have to break down exactly how doing something extremely physical is much more "reality" grounded and is therefore more self-rewarding than beating some video game quickly.
Again, I believe it's a different thing. You are right that doing something 'extremely physical' gives you a feeling making a TAS doesn't give you... but then again, making a TAS is also self-rewarding, and gives you a feeling doing something 'extremely physical' doesn't give you. (Again I could write a lot more about this...)
Making a TAS is tedious and requires a lot of patience I'm sure, but you don't really think it's difficult to make a run frame by frame in slow motion do you? How many attempts does it take you to make one segment in a TAS? Hopefully not more than one or two. In regular runs, where the segments are much longer and full speed, it takes hundreds.
Sure, the number of "attempts" in the TAS to equal the same amount of attempts in the time of a regular run's segment may be comparable, but remember that after every successful segment in a TAS, your progress is saved, and you can continue building the run. With a normal speed-run, you must repeatedly start over until you literally become better at the game, and are good enough to accomplish all tricks in the segment to a satisfactory degree of success. This is what I meant by "harder".
Making a TAS can be self-rewarding, I never said it couldn't. To a degree, the same can be said for regular speedrunning, if it weren't for the process involved. As I've compared it to before, making a TAS is sort of like making a painting. After each careful, deliberate stroke your progress is saved and you're free to add to it at your leisure. People do make paintings for themselves, without intending to show anyone; they do it for the beauty of the final creation, and the fact that they created it. I could see someone working to make a TAS just for themselves.
Making a regular speedrun, on the other hand, is not the same process. I don't have a nifty analogy to compare this one as of yet, but suffice it to say that running the same segment over and over and over and over again is much less fulfilling and I think not quite as "worth it" to most. It requires mastery and memorization of a video game to sometimes ridiculous degrees (if you consider where a video game stands in life), and the final result is less than how you saw it being perfected in your mind. Most of the fun of it is showing your creation and accomplishment to others, especially when they have to consider what it took to make it. With nobody to show it to, why give yourself so much grief?
Finally, since you compared the self-rewarding feeling of completing a TAS with the self-rewarding feeling of a huge physical feat, I have to say this. Yes, they both give you self-rewarding feelings to varying degrees, but which is more meaningful? The reward should match the work put into it, and importance of the subject to the individual. Making a TAS requires patience but come on, comparing it to walking across Antarctica? It's not even in the same ballpark of accomplishments, not even close. Is making a TAS one of the highlights of your life? I hope not.
