Post by Baxter

Posted: 5/3/2006 12:43 AM

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Zurreco

Former player

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA

"Get the Bolero of Fire to warp back from" - No.

Find a way to get back from the Oasis, then.

"You need to get heart pieces for underwater segments" - No. We skip Fire and Water temples.

I said "I think", not "I know". I understand what the optimal route is; I'm just justifying picking up the heart piece.

"If you have such a low bandwidth that you need to split up 100KB files into 20KB segments..." - the segments are about 30 KB per minute. The files will be much bigger than 100 KB, and they should be split up per my instructions.

That should initially have said 100MB. My bad on the typo. Also, the 'segments' would be split up per the instructions of the runner, not you. Don't act like you are the deciding point for this run.

"Savewarps aren't allowed" - I don't see where the rules say that. The optimal route is what will be used...and if that involves, savewarping, so be it.

Where do I say savewarps aren't allowed? I said until we find a way to soft reset or encode the hard reset into the movie file, save warps can't be used. I don't think I ever said it was against the rules. The only way to work a save warp for this game would be to save and then die, which wouldn't save much time at all.

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 5/3/2006 12:48 AM

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CoolBumpty

Joined: 12/12/2004
Posts: 158

Very nicely played. It's great that the platform was there at just the right time. =)

Posted: 5/3/2006 12:55 AM

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TheFrigz

Joined: 2/9/2006
Posts: 124

Well, it turns out that the reason for my input mixup was that I was using Jabo 1.5.2, instead of 1.6. Apparently the long subscreen pause is different lengths with different plugins. However, there is one problem with the 1.6. There IS a reason I was using 1.5.2. 1.6 makes my Zelda go screwy. Some textures don't appear, so water is indistinguishable from the land near in in Kokiri Forest, and the Deku Tree is really dark. But, I watched the run anyway, and I must say it was fabulous. Keep up the good work GuanoBowl.

Posted: 5/3/2006 2:33 AM

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GuanoBowl

Former player

Joined: 7/4/2005
Posts: 714
Location: Albuqueruqe, New Mexico

CoolBumpty wrote:

Very nicely played. It's great that the platform was there at just the right time. =)

Yeah, I finally got everything timed perfect to get that platform there at the right time. I thought it wasnt possible but I was wrong. Everytime I kept trying from different spots, the platform kept getting further away from me which kept giving me more time to board it.

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Posted: 5/3/2006 3:58 AM

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DK64_MASTER

Joined: 10/24/2005
Posts: 1080
Location: San Jose

TheFrigz wrote:

Well, it turns out that the reason for my input mixup was that I was using Jabo 1.5.2, instead of 1.6. Apparently the long subscreen pause is different lengths with different plugins. However, there is one problem with the 1.6. There IS a reason I was using 1.5.2. 1.6 makes my Zelda go screwy. Some textures don't appear, so water is indistinguishable from the land near in in Kokiri Forest, and the Deku Tree is really dark. But, I watched the run anyway, and I must say it was fabulous. Keep up the good work GuanoBowl.

I had the exact same problem. I'm sure others did too. Actually, I'm surprised, fast forwarding works a lot better in 1.6... It's all good. After watching the run, I love it. Most amazing to me was the way you killed the 3 deku scrubs in a row. That was unexpected. I was ready to fast-forward that part, but I'm glad I didn't. 1 bit of constructive criticism. When you backwalk, it seems that you get the best speed when you are facing exactly backwards. Many times while you were ascending the deku tree, you were walking backwards, diagonally. It looked slower, but I'm not sure it was. If it is indeed slower, it might be more advantageous to roll, or side-hop. I think the speeds go like this (in order of slowest fastest): walk, run, diagonal backwalk (looks like same speed as side-walking) , roll, sidehop, balkwalk. I could be wrong, and it doesn't make that big of a difference, since this is just a test run. Anyways, I can't reiterate enough that I'm loving the run so far. :) Gread job!

<agill> banana banana banana terracotta pie! <Shinryuu> ho-la terracotta barba-ra anal-o~

Posted: 5/3/2006 4:16 AM

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GuanoBowl

Former player

Joined: 7/4/2005
Posts: 714
Location: Albuqueruqe, New Mexico

DK64_MASTER wrote:

1 bit of constructive criticism. When you backwalk, it seems that you get the best speed when you are facing exactly backwards. Many times while you were ascending the deku tree, you were walking backwards, diagonally. It looked slower, but I'm not sure it was.

Its a tad slower but its better than side hopping then going backwards because you are walking diagonally(sorta). And also my only concern was getting to the water platform when I wanted to in the Deku Tree, only because the platform is timed.

Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.

Posted: 5/3/2006 5:33 AM

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yarbles

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 143
Location: Colorado

Finally got it to work after turning on raw input and dropping my resolution to 640x480 Excellent work so far, can't wait to see the next WIP

Posted: 5/3/2006 5:46 AM

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DK64_MASTER

Joined: 10/24/2005
Posts: 1080
Location: San Jose

GuanoBowl wrote:

Its a tad slower but its better than side hopping then going backwards because you are walking diagonally(sorta). And also my only concern was getting to the water platform when I wanted to in the Deku Tree, only because the platform is timed.

Right, you are taking the shortest route, so it makes no sense to side-hop, and then backwalk. But that's why I suggested rolling? Rolling will not follow the shortest path exactly, but the path be better (still not the shortest distance, though) than side hopping and then balkwalking. Why am I suggesting this now, since you are time-limited by the platorm? Just suggesting something to keep in mind for other paths in other dungeons, but I'm sure you could have figured that out yourself :). Just curious, how long did it take you to produce this work? A few days of tedious work, or a few days of leisure? For a test run, it looks very polished!! I'm questioning now if you are going to turn this into a real run instead ;).

<agill> banana banana banana terracotta pie! <Shinryuu> ho-la terracotta barba-ra anal-o~

Posted: 5/3/2006 5:51 AM

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GuanoBowl

Former player

Joined: 7/4/2005
Posts: 714
Location: Albuqueruqe, New Mexico

I just got done with getting to Guerdo Valley, and ill submit my run once im done with some more stuff.

Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.

Posted: 5/3/2006 8:19 AM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

Theoretical Best Route - Tool-assisted Segment 1 1. Link's House (Exit) 2. Kokiri Forest (Get Kokiri Sword; Collect Rupees) 3. Kokiri Shop (Buy Deku Shield) 4. Kokiri Forest (Mido/Tree dialogues) 5. Inside the Deku Tree (Text skips) 6. Kokiri Forest (Savewarp) Items obtained: Kokiri Sword, Deku Shield, Deku Sticks, Fairy Slingshot, Kokiri Emerald Segment 2 1. Link's House (Exit) 2. Kokiri Forest (Get Fairy Ocarina) 3. Hyrule Field (Backwalk to Lake) 4. Lake Hylia (Get 20 Rupees) 5. Fishing Pond (Get Golden Scale) 6. Lake Hylia (Retrieve bottle with letter) 7. Hyrule Field (Backwalk to Valley) 8. Gerudo Valley (Cucco Jump) 9. Gerudo Fortress (Gate slash) 10. Haunted Wasteland (Quicksand crossing; Lens-less Poe route) 11. Desert Colossus (To Spirit) 12. Spirit Temple (Exit immediately) 13. Desert Colossus (Learn Requiem; Reenter Temple) 14. Spirit Temple (Get Bombchus/Silver Gauntlets) 15. Desert Colossus (Savewarp) Items obtained: Fairy Ocarina, Golden Scale, Bottle, Requiem, Bombchu, Silver Gauntlets Segment 3 1. Link's House (Exit) 2. Kokiri Forest (Exit) 3. Hyrule Field (Backwalk to castle gates) 4. Market (Exit) 5. Hyrule Castle (Bombchu boost across moat) 6. Castle Courtyard (Get Lullaby) 7. Hyrule Field (Savewarp) Items Obtained: Lullaby Segment 4 1. Link's House (Exit) 2. Kokiri Forest (To Lost Woods) 3. Lost Woods (To Zora's River warp) 4. Zora's River (Open entrance to Domain) 5. Zora's Domain (Show King bottle) 6. Zora's Fountain (Bomb boost into Jabu-Jabu) 7. Inside Lord Jabu-Jabu's Belly (Tentacle skips) 8. Zora's Fountain (Savewarp) Items obtained: Boomerang, Zora's Sapphire Segment 5 - Child Portion 1. Link's House 2. Kokiri Forest 3. Lost Woods 4. Sacred Forest Meadow (Get Saria's Song) 5. Lost Woods (to Goron City warp) 6. Goron City (Exit through main entrance) 7. Death Mountain Trail (Open Dodongo's Cavern) 8. Dodongo's Cavern (Bombchu eyes) 9. Death Mountain Trail (To summit) 10. Great Fairy's Fountain (Get Magic Meter) 11. Death Mountain Trail (Ride Owl to Village) 12. Kakariko Village (Cucco dive) 13. Bottom of the Well (Restock Bombchus) 14. Kakariko Village (Exit) 15. Hyrule Field (Get Ocarina of Time) 16. Market (To Temple) 17. Temple of Time (Warp to future) Items obtained: Saria's Song, Goron's Ruby, Magic Meter, Bombchus, Ocarina of Time, Song of Time, Master Sword, Light Medallion Segment 5 - Adult Portion 1. Temple of Time (Sacred Realm cutscene) 2. Market (Exit) 3. Hyrule Field (Backwalk to Village) 4. Kakariko Village (to Graveyard) 5. Graveyard (Open Dampe's tomb) 6. ??? (Get squished by exit door after race) 7. Graveyard (Poe/Bombchu boosts; Sidehop) 8. Shadow Temple (Get Boss Key without Din's) 9. Graveyard (Exit) 10. KV (Exit through open gate) 11. Death Mountain Trail 12. Goron City 13. Lost Woods 14. Sacred Forest Meadow 15. Forest Temple (Get bow and play requiem) 16. Desert Colossus (Balkwalk to Spirit) 17. Spirit Temple (Iron Knuckle skip; Get Mirror Shield) 18. Desert Colossus (Savewarp) Items obtained: Hookshot, Hylian Shield, Hover Boots, Shadow Medallion, Fairy Bow, Mirror Shield, Spirit Medallion Segment 6 1. Temple of Time (Get Light arrows) 2. Market 3. Ganon's Castle (Rainbow Bridge cutscene) 4. Inside Ganon's Castle (Barrier skip) Items obtained: Light arrows

Posted: 5/3/2006 9:02 AM

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Atma

Former player

Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803

mwl wrote:

Theoretical Best Route - Tool-assisted Segment 1

There is only one segment in a TAS. As it stands, dying to save time or grabbing another song to warp back past the game with are the only logical solutions that can be used since reset recording isn't registered at the moment. Also, have you actually tested that its faster to save+reset to skip past mido instead of testing both methods?

Posted: 5/3/2006 9:05 AM

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DK64_MASTER

Joined: 10/24/2005
Posts: 1080
Location: San Jose

Atma wrote:

There is only one segment in a TAS. As it stands, dying to save time or grabbing another song to warp back past the game with are the only logical solutions that can be used since reset recording isn't registered at the moment. Also, have you actually tested that its faster to save+reset to skip past mido instead of testing both methods?

Since this is a test run, he can have each segement work off a new save-state, for the time being.

<agill> banana banana banana terracotta pie! <Shinryuu> ho-la terracotta barba-ra anal-o~

Posted: 5/3/2006 9:13 AM

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CoolBumpty

Joined: 12/12/2004
Posts: 158

That first segment split only saves a few seconds using the SDA multiple segment timing, and when you add in the fact that more rupees can be gained by going through the forest from Mido, it may end up saving a little bit of time to not save and reset, even when that is possible. As for the other places, it shouldn't be too hard to die to return to where you need to be. Except for maybe after getting Zelda's Lullaby. I'm not sure of a good way to die there, since it has to be day time when you get to Zelda. But since we may have to get the magic bean anyway, the structure of the run in that area might be a little different anyway.

Posted: 5/3/2006 9:33 AM

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GuanoBowl

Former player

Joined: 7/4/2005
Posts: 714
Location: Albuqueruqe, New Mexico

MWL, that is wonderful. I will most likely be using that. In the meantime, Im up to the desert and just past the quicksand. If someone knows of a fast rout to get out of the wasteland to the desired place, it would be nice. I may have a clue but Im not sure. Help me please :) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1102/THE%20LEGEND%20OF%20ZELDA%20%28USA%29.m64

Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.

Posted: 5/3/2006 10:21 AM

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Baxter

Skilled player (1410)

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821

ProtoMonkey (at SDA forum) wrote:

Route looks good Mwl, but could somebody put me out of my misery on this? Every time I see those segments I'm convinced this would be faster; Segment 2 1. Link's House (Exit) 2. Kokiri Forest (Get Fairy Ocarina) X. Go straight to Child Spirit. X. Save and Quit. Segment 3. 3. Hyrule Field 4. Go to the Castle. Get ZL. 4. Hyrule Field (Backwalk to Lake) 4. Lake Hylia (Get 20 Rupees) 5. Fishing Pond (Get Golden Scale) 6. Lake Hylia (Retrieve bottle with letter) 7. Swim through tunnel to Zora's Domain. ... (Segments 3 & 4 become one segment) 5. Zora's Domain (Show King bottle) 6. Zora's Fountain (Bomb boost into Jabu-Jabu)

This seems faster indeed. I don't know if it's possible... but wouldn't going back after getting the silver gaunlets, jumping in the water at Gerudo Valley to get to the gold scale also be an option?

http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html

Posted: 5/3/2006 11:05 AM

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Mitjitsu

He/Him

Banned User

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

Why would you use bomb boosts in to Jabu. I only use it because it has a higher success rate. Its best to use a jump slash because a TAS runner would have to properly line themselves up. There is also rolling into one of the corners of Jabu's mouth but it has to be pixel perfect, so that might be considered.

Posted: 5/3/2006 11:07 AM

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CoolBumpty

Joined: 12/12/2004
Posts: 158

Unfortunately, we're not sure if there's a way to get back through the Gerudo Gate (the big one in the fortress, not the small on that's over the river). Also, it would take a good bit of time to walk all the way back through the Desert Colossus and back through the Haunted Wasteland. It probably wouldn't end up saving time in the end, even if there is a way to get back through that gate. But it is a possibility. For mwl's route, the areas that take time that aren't in the other route are walking from Kokiri to Hylia, and from Hylia to Gerudo, and save warping and getting from Link's house to Zora's Domain. For ProtoMonkey's route, you have to walk from Kokiri to Gerudo, and walk from Hyrul Castle to Lake Hylia. It seems like ProtoMonkey's way is likely a little faster with the way that we time things and such, but I'm wondering which one will allow you to enter Hyrule Castle at the right time? (since you can't enter the town at nighttime because of the drawbridge, and you also can't enter the castle itself at nighttime since the guards will throw you out) And this whole arguement may be a moot point if we can't get up to the ledge in the graveyard without the magic bean.

Posted: 5/3/2006 11:38 AM

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Phallosvogel

Joined: 1/3/2006
Posts: 334

it is possible to egt back through gerudo gate. but its boundary violation. but, is this against TAS rules?

Posted: 5/3/2006 11:40 AM

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Atma

Former player

Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803

Phallosvogel wrote:

it is possible to egt back through gerudo gate. but its boundary violation. but, is this against TAS rules?

I dont believe so. wouldn't practically every useful shortcut be a boundary violation by sda's rules (eg. ganon barrier skip)?

Posted: 5/3/2006 11:43 AM

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CoolBumpty

Joined: 12/12/2004
Posts: 158

I just watched the WIP, and at lot of it was nice, but I have some comments. I was wondering if it would be faster to get the blue rupee from behind the house that you got the two blue rupees from and then kill two of the skeletons for blue rupees instead. When talking to the owl, after the second or third line or so you should be able to have his text go by really fast and get all weird looking if you jam on the A and B buttons. There are some other cases where you can use this, but not too often. I'm wondering if the fisherman's talk is longer or shorter if you enable the rumble pak? I doubt the movie would desync before that if you had a rumble pak enabled or not, though I really wouldn't know for sure. If you can get Link to walk on that shallow area right after getting the bottle, then turn around and backflip out of the water instead of having him climb out, it might be faster, though I haven't tested it myself. But other than that, it seemed to be good. I didn't really notice anything else to improve. As for the Wasteland, it's probably best to just watch a video of it and just use a lot of loading up savestates to get a good feel for where the boundaries are before recording. But basically, after getting over the sand pit, you have to go north and slightly east until you pass a building with flags all around it, and then you have to go a little more north (and you have to make sure you're far enough to the east), then you turn west and go west until you're about 3/4ths of the map to the west (just an estimate off the top of my head, I don't know it exactly), and then go south until you're about level with where you have to go, and simply go west until the end. But like I said, a video would be much better. I think somewhere in the SDA topic there's an animated gif of where you have to go, or something like that. Or of course there's TSA's run. It would be nice if there was some sort of hack that made the boundaries visible. Sort of like in Mega Man 2 in Wood Man's level in the beginning. It seems there's some hack that makes the ceiling textures black instead of looking like the background, so that it's easier to zip through when you're recording. It would be really nice if there was some way of doing that for OoT, but well, I don't think we have a way of doing it. Edit: About the way back through the gate and boundary violations, I've heard that TSA found a way back through the gate, but he hasn't explained how it's done, at least he hasn't from what I've seen. So I don't really know how it's done or anything, though I think it would still save time, most likely, to just save and die. And for the boundary stuff, all glitches are acceptable. There was a huge debate at SDA about the rules that apply there (it's probably still going on), but here, anything that saves time, other than using cheats or bad roms or having save data or not starting from a power on, it's all acceptable other than that. And pretty much everything is judged by a case by case look. So we have had runs that use save data. It's just that if the glitches totally destroy the game to the point where you can't really see what the game was meant to be (Zelda 2, Zelda 3, Wizards and Warriors(to some extent), Mario 64 16 star run, Castlevania CotM, etc), then there will be more than one run accepted. I think that an all medalions run would be accepted here in addition to a fastest time possible run.

Posted: 5/3/2006 12:42 PM

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