Post by CtrlAltDestroy

Posted: 5/3/2006 1:05 PM

Post subject: Surviving Tetris

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AnS

Emulator Coder, Experienced player (723)

Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682

Did you guys knew that Tetris is THE Game? Of course you knew. :) But did you knew that Tetris is the game you can't win? If you don't stop after some score mark, you are doomed to lose sooner or later. Well, in theory. Probably you also knew this fact (from wikipedia or other source) - about S- and Z-shaped figures. Maybe you even played Java version on this site (I hope there are diehard fans of tetris on this forum). In this version you have worst luck in a Galaxy, one chance on million - getting S- and Z- in a row for a long time. I tried it and found it pretty interesting to play/watch playing. Although it's normal tetris with classic rules, the feeling (emotional experience) is very different from playing Tetris with natural luck. Usually, while playing Tetris you relax, because if you make a mistake you can fix it later with other figures. But when you are playing against the luck, you can only hope to prolong playing time and collect as much points as possible. This type of gameplay is more frantic - it's a real challenge for those who think they play Tetris well. Someone can be called Tetris guru (or whatever) only if he can show his best even when situation is inhuman. I find that Java version too uncomfortable to test your skills. Mostly because of bad controls. That's why I decided to play NES version, which provides plenty of tools, you know what I'm talking about. Using luck manipulation I could put this intention into effect. But then I realised how tedious would it be to make and how uneasy to watch (constant flashes because of pausing). It's better to make little hack that changes random generator procedure - so I did, now it operates only with S and Z. Nothing else was changed. This hack is merely tool for providing necessary luck without manipulating by key input. You can download this patch for your Tetris_(U)_[!].nes from my page. (ips+exe versions) Now about the movie. Eh, it seems I'm not that big fan of Tetris as I thought, my record isn't that high. Still it worth watching, I doubt you've ever seen such gameplay. First minute has nothing special, but soon after frame 5000 the fun begins. Here is FCM file for this record. I encourage everyone who loves Tetris to play this type of the game and show their records. Now just imagine you are playing Tetris during the break and suddenly you get worst luck in a world. How long can you stand it? ;)

Posted: 5/3/2006 2:16 PM

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Swedishmartin

Joined: 11/26/2005
Posts: 285

Verrry good! ^_^ How did you change the number generator? Notepad? :P About the FCM: as long as you get into a "scoring pattern" as the one on frame ~8000 you should probably be able to reach the 9999... ponit mark. (From now I will call these scores "niney" scores.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris#Is_it_possible_to_play_forever.3F Interesting read. :)

Posted: 5/3/2006 2:52 PM

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KDR_11k

Joined: 1/23/2006
Posts: 352
Location: Germany

I'd rather see a TAS of Bastet, trying to manipulate the algorithm into giving you blocks that allow you to survive...

Posted: 5/3/2006 4:23 PM

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AnS

Emulator Coder, Experienced player (723)

Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682

Swedishmartin wrote:

How did you change the number generator? Notepad? :P

Why notepad? I used hexeditor+FCEU debugger to modify programm code (rewrite one subroutine). I'm romhacker after all.

Swedishmartin wrote:

About the FCM: as long as you get into a "scoring pattern" as the one on frame ~8000 you should probably be able to reach the 9999... ponit mark. (From now I will call these scores "niney" scores.)

Yeah, there is much room for improvement, especially at the beginning.

KDR_11k wrote:

I'd rather see a TAS of Bastet, trying to manipulate the algorithm into giving you blocks that allow you to survive...

Hah, didn't knew this! Maan, this is frustrating, I can't fill even 7 lines with this. Need to practice...

Posted: 5/3/2006 4:41 PM

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AnS

Emulator Coder, Experienced player (723)

Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682

Hmm... Bastet algorithm is pretty simple, but implementing it on NES would be rather difficult task. That seems more difficult than writing PC Tetris with needed tools involved (savestates+frame advance/no gravitation).

Posted: 5/3/2006 7:19 PM

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CtrlAltDestroy

Active player (325)

Joined: 2/23/2005
Posts: 786

Very interesting. I found a strategy which was able to be repeated for a long time, but it couldn't go on forever because the two sides kept going out of balance. http://www.samus.co.uk/cad/CAD_survivaltetris_175092.fcm

Posted: 5/3/2006 9:50 PM

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minglw

Joined: 4/3/2006
Posts: 269

Very interesting indeed. It's nice to see that CtrlAltDestroy can get thru 300+ pieces each. From the recording, it seems like you can leavel just one line opening instead of two line opening. That will probably get pass 400 pieces each. Still, it will die... just slower. Nice hack and nice recordings. Thanks!

Posted: 5/4/2006 1:20 AM

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CtrlAltDestroy

Active player (325)

Joined: 2/23/2005
Posts: 786

I don't think that's possible. Every section begins with one gap, and ends with one gap. So there are two gaps next to each other when a section is finished. http://www.samus.co.uk/cad/CAD_survivaltetris_182176.fcm Same idea, a little cleaner execution. Small score increase since last time.

Posted: 5/4/2006 3:09 AM

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Ramzi

Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459

I read but could not find... Does Bastet give all of the pieces, or only continually the Z and S pieces? It says, "Bastet uses a special algorithm designed to choose the worst brick possible." Doesn't this just mean always Z and S pieces?

Posted: 5/4/2006 4:38 PM

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AnS

Emulator Coder, Experienced player (723)

Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682

CtrlAltDestroy wrote:

I found a strategy which was able to be repeated for a long time, but it couldn't go on forever because the two sides kept going out of balance.

Whoa, you managed to triple my result. That's great! But I wonder if it's possible to get 999.999 points? Judging by their phrase "This game must end (in a loss) before 70,000 pieces have been played" it's really possible somehow. One note. You stopped movies too early, it was possible to survive about dozen of figures more. But still you receive "best ending" with current score!

Ramzi wrote:

I read but could not find...

Here is Windows version of Tetris with Bastet mode.

Ramzi wrote:

Does Bastet give all of the pieces, or only continually the Z and S pieces? It says, "Bastet uses a special algorithm designed to choose the worst brick possible." Doesn't this just mean always Z and S pieces?

No, its algorithm is based on points counter. Before choosing next figure, programm calculates every result of placing this figure (there are 7 of those tetrominoes) into every possible place. Assuming that you are perfect player (that you'll choose place with max points result) it finds min(max(tetromino,place)) and gives you worst tetromino (with minimum points result). S- and Z- are not always the worst figures judging from point of view of score counter. They just force you to leave gaps (that's what cause gameover), but they give good score (as you may see in our movies). Bastet can give any figure - S&Z make you lose game and other figures make you lose points. Bastet algorithm has some negative side-effects - it constantly gives you series of similar figures, that makes the process look more artificial then S- and Z-only generator.

Posted: 5/4/2006 4:51 PM

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AnS

Emulator Coder, Experienced player (723)

Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682

To think it, Bastet is totally different from what I made in this hack. Bastet ruines essential feature of Tetris gameplay - ability to create logic structures. Creativity is the main component of Tetris fun. Whole game you construct various structures, turning abstract tetrominoes into something useful. You build your own patterns and enjoy the process more than result. Bastet's aim is to prevent you from creating something recognizable. It simply verifies every possible structure you can build with one of 7 figures and then chooses least humane structure. That's why you can't be addicted by Bastet (only excited by challenge). And S- and Z- stuff is of another matter. Every bit of Tetris' fun is preserved, but you have to deal only with 2 types of details. This feature only makes the game more repetitive than usual, but you still can have the same fun as while playing normal Tetris.