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looking back at the video, i think i should have done it this way on the 120 stars run... humm : / oh well.
i have made an avi of it. i'm uploading to google videos and then i'll upload to rapidshare so i can post here.
For the very hard CC-less star in Jolly Roger Bay you can also reach the platform if you double-longjump from the ship at his highest point. It's a bit easier than the mylestyle (Myles Bukrim found the method which FODA also uses in his run, same goes for the latest 114th star in WF).
That would be a CCC-less. Could you link to a video of that? My attempts so far haven't gotten me anywhere close to the ledge.
I did, however, manage to get the star in JRB without the Metal Cap. It took 10 years, but I finally got the timing perfect for long enough to get the star. I then got the one in DDD as well, and figured out how to jump to the island in Bob-omb Battlefield, so I've gotten 69 of the 73 (+ Chuckya Glitch) CCC-less stars.
I then copied to Slot B and used the Vanish Cap to get the 4 stars that require it, reaching 73 of the 77 coinless, cannon-less stars (CCC-less except for the Vanish Cap on those 4 stars), then copied to slot C and opened the cannon in Course 15 to collect my 74th of the 78 coinless stars, still cannonless and capless except for the 5 stars that required them.
I also just beat the game with less than 70 stars for the first time by using the backwards longjump glitch on the endless stairway. It's a great place to practice because you have unlimited room behind you!
Other than the star on the ledge in JRB, I still need the Chain Chomp star, and I have to collect the 5 secrets in Shifting Sand Land without touching the coins.
As far as getting Blast Away the Wall without blasting away the wall, I was trying to triple jump and wall jump onto the spinning walkway like FODA did, and as the camera was moving I could clearly see part of the star sticking out of the far side of the wall. It looks like it should be possible to get it by jumping from the platform that has the falling blocks and grab the star from the opposite side from where FODA gets it. If I understood how FODA got it in the first place, I could experiment using frame advance and save states. What exactly am I trying to do here? Do I have to be moving fast so that Mario will partially enter the wall before the collision detection stops him? Did you ever try to grab the star from the other side, FODA?
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Joined: 5/1/2004
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that probably wouldn't work because the star isn't centered in the wall. it's clearly closer to the rotating bridge.
what you're trying to do here is make mario grab the ledge of the seam. his hand will touch the star on that frame.
Great WIP once again. Just wondering, as I haven't read the above posts, is the 100 coins in shifting sand land optimal?
Won't you gain some time by taking more red coins instead?
^_^ Thanks. Would've said something earlier, but I haven't been on the forums for a while. I'll watch it as soon as I can.
EDIT: Okay, now you're just showing off ;)
Incredible, incredible work, as always.
Currently working on:
(All Consoles) Improving my TAS abilities
(GBA) Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow
Future runs:
(SNES) Ys III: Wanderers From Ys
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nope it isn't faster. that's why i chose not to do it this way + i already had 2 uses of the elevator in the movie. but yea, even so, i should have done it like this, but now it's done, and can't remake it.
I just watched Spezzafer's 16 star run again and I have to say, one of the things I'm most excited about your work on the 120 star run is the improvements that can be made to the 16 star run. Not wasting time opening the cannon in Whomp's Fortress, and getting Blast Away the Wall without it alone is a huge time saver, not to mention the way you get Shoot Into the Wild Blue.
After seeing your video of getting to the floating island in Bob-omb Battlefield using only the backward longjump glitch, I'm curious as why it's impossible to use the blj on the stairs in front of Jolly Roger Bay or Bob-omb Battlefield and change direction to pass through the locked door and have a 0 star run. Is the angle impossible, or is there a load point that wouldn't be triggered if you passed through the door without the key? What actually would happen if you went beyond the door or back wall?
I'm sure most of us have done the trick where you fall through the roof into the lobby while the courtyard is still loaded, and when you go through the door you're in the courtyard but the castle is loaded. I remember it being possible to get out of that eventually. I'm thinking that if you were on the other side of the door but the stairway didn't load, would you be able to open the door from the opposite side and then be in the lobby with the stairway loaded? Then, using some nifty glitch work, get to actually be in the starway with the stairway loaded and head upstairs. Am I completely insane or is this remotely possible?
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The difference is the amount of stored speed. Using the elevator in BoB, i can do so many jumps (like 20) and each jumps adds to the stored speed. But with the stairs in front of JRB, i can only jump about 5, which doesn't give much speed. When i'm steering backwards, mario is losing speed due to friction with the ground, and the distance is enough to make mario go really slow before he can reach 1st bowser's door.
About the load point:
- firstly, you'd need to get through the door by glitching, which hasn't been done yet.
- secondly, i believe that the way to get out of the trap is to open the door and jump back inside before it closes (i'm guessing it, i don't remember having seen someone get out of it). But for that you'd need the key..
Oh, I only remember that you could get out of the front door trap because you were allowed to walk through the wall next to the door for some reason. A one-way wall?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
I dont think there is any reason to believe the key doors can be passed through without a key. When mario walk ups to a door between different zones he enters a scripted animation which leads to the next area being loaded.
The castle front door is an example of what happens if you get behind one of these doors. When mario is in the hidden black room he enters the opening door animation which causes the next area to be loaded just as normal (except he is on the wrong side).
What this likely means is that if you somehow get into the fake area behind the key door and walk to the door you will just get the message that you need to have a key to pass (without loading the next zone).
This can probably be tested easily by messing around with the memory. You could find the location of mario's position and simply add a value to his xyz to put him on the other side but Im not sure how much Mupen64 lets you try stuff like this.
Now if you can find a way to get through all bowser doors (none involve loading), then you can do a 1-star, 2-key run (dire dire docks needs to be cleared to expose bowser 2).
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Humans may have trouble getting two of the stars without the Metal Cap.
Which two?
Sorry, I didn't notice the question. I had a heck of a time getting the stars in the jet stream in Jolly Roger Bay and Dire, Dire Docks without the Metal Cap, but I've done it.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
@FODA
What is exactly the key to do the BLJ?
In the real console you must tap the A as fast as possible, but that doesn't always mean Mario can go fast enough.
Do you have to meet the step right after you press A? Is the angle important?
The difference is the amount of stored speed. Using the elevator in BoB, i can do so many jumps (like 20) and each jumps adds to the stored speed. But with the stairs in front of JRB, i can only jump about 5, which doesn't give much speed. When i'm steering backwards, mario is losing speed due to friction with the ground, and the distance is enough to make mario go really slow before he can reach 1st bowser's door.
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FILIM0NAS wrote:
@FODA
What is exactly the key to do the BLJ?
In the real console you must tap the A as fast as possible, but that doesn't always mean Mario can go fast enough.
Do you have to meet the step right after you press A? Is the angle important?
Mario needs to land on ground just a few frames after he starts the jump so he can jump again. Doing this second jump "before the first jump has finished" is what gives the extra speed. It can be acomplished if you have enough speed so that when going up you land on a groung above the ground you jump from (stairs for example) or if there's a low enough ceiling so that mario is blocked from jumping and can jump again quickly., or if the plataform mario is standing on moves upwards faster than mario's upwards speed when jumping.
@FODA
What is exactly the key to do the BLJ?
In the real console you must tap the A as fast as possible, but that doesn't always mean Mario can go fast enough.
Do you have to meet the step right after you press A? Is the angle important?
A BLJ always gives you a speed boost (even on flat ground) but there is always friction which decreases your speed. Normally you cant do BLJ's frequently enough to overcome this friction. So BLJing stairs and upwards platforms works by allowing you to do BLJ more frequently than you would normally be able to. A forwards LJ gives you a boost too but the forward speed is bounded while backwards speed is not.
I think the way BLJ works is that at the very first frame of a LJ mario is raised instantaneously from the ground so he can't jump again. If this amount is less than a traversed stair height or the movement of an upwards platform then the game puts mario back on the ground and mario can immediately jump again. When mario walks up stairs you can see how he is instantaneous transposed to higher ground levels.
With stairs then that means that at most he can get the jump boosts at every stair (by abusing instantaneous transposition to higherground). Marios max speed on stairs is then limited by the number of stairs.
The angle need only be sufficient to reach the next transposition (basically slamming into the front side of a stair is ideal). If he cant make it then I think FODA can add an extra jump to position himself better to hit the transposition. Each positioning jump though adds time and mario's speed is naturally decreasing over time (by friction) so this has to be taken into effect.
So if you were to see what is happening in slow motion while BLJ up stairs you will see mario BLJ into a stair front face at which point he is raised up to ground and starts walking backwards (on the higher stairs). He will continue to walk backwards (even up several stairs) until he jumps again, at which point he gets another boost and slams into another stair again and starts walking backwards, etc.
So on a console you will need to first start the BLJ cycle by BLJing into the front faces of stairs until you get enough speed to hit every stair, at which point as long as you just hit jump faster than the frequency of stairs, you will have optimal acceleration.
There is also probably a limit in the code as to the maximum height that will allow a transposition (an upper limit on the stair effect). So mario should be able to walk over any small object.
Actually when I think about it this way... if mario could obtain enough initial backwards momentum he should be able to BLJ up slopes. The trouble though is getting the initial momentum as with stairs you can just use a few multi boost-jumps (via transposition abuse) to slip into the hyper-BLJ mode.
Maybe if mario slides backwards off a steep enough slope and hits an upwards slope he would have the required speed? Steeper upwards slopes would require less initial backwards speed.
Of course sliding phyics might interfere... the upwards slope might be limited to ones you are allowed to walk on...
FODA you might want to look out for these situations. I'll try to think of somewhere this would come into play...
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It doesn't get any more complicated than what i already said. Still, i'll talk about what you said, because there are some imprecisions.
asteron wrote:
A BLJ always gives you a speed boost (even on flat ground) but there is always friction which decreases your speed. Normally you cant do BLJ's frequently enough to overcome this friction. So BLJing stairs and upwards platforms works by allowing you to do BLJ more frequently than you would normally be able to. A forwards LJ gives you a boost too but the forward speed is bounded while backwards speed is not.
What friction are you talking about? ground friction? BLJ can be done by touching the ground for a single frame time, and this doesn't change whether you jump high or low. The amount of ground friction is the same for every jump. This is not the reason for the accumulated speed gain.
asteron wrote:
I think the way BLJ works is that at the very first frame of a LJ mario is raised instantaneously from the ground so he can't jump again. If this amount is less than a traversed stair height or the movement of an upwards platform then the game puts mario back on the ground and mario can immediately jump again. When mario walks up stairs you can see how he is instantaneous transposed to higher ground levels.
Yes, that's what i said, when you jump to a higher plataform, you land on it.
asteron wrote:
With stairs then that means that at most he can get the jump boosts at every stair (by abusing instantaneous transposition to higherground). Marios max speed on stairs is then limited by the number of stairs.
It's not possible to jump on every stair. When mario gains more and more speed, on each jump he may be thrown several stairs away in a single frame, so you can't jump there. If it was possible to force mario to jump on every stair, you'd need to be able to jump on 30 stairs / second and that'd be a limit to the speed (moving 60 stairs per second). This doesn't apply, there's no limit to the speed you can acquire with BLJ.
asteron wrote:
The angle need only be sufficient to reach the next transposition (basically slamming into the front side of a stair is ideal). If he cant make it then I think FODA can add an extra jump to position himself better to hit the transposition. Each positioning jump though adds time and mario's speed is naturally decreasing over time (by friction) so this has to be taken into effect.
What you're basically saying is that if i miss landing on an upper plataform i can try and land on the next BLJ? I don't see any place where this could be used, because there aren't stairs in front of slopes or anything like that. It's either get it right or try again.
asteron wrote:
So if you were to see what is happening in slow motion while BLJ up stairs you will see mario BLJ into a stair front face at which point he is raised up to ground and starts walking backwards (on the higher stairs). He will continue to walk backwards (even up several stairs) until he jumps again, at which point he gets another boost and slams into another stair again and starts walking backwards, etc.
here you contradict what you said earlier, yep, each jump may send you through several stairs.
asteron wrote:
So on a console you will need to first start the BLJ cycle by BLJing into the front faces of stairs until you get enough speed to hit every stair, at which point as long as you just hit jump faster than the frequency of stairs, you will have optimal acceleration.
The way to do this is real time for me, is press "A" as fast as possible. There's not much science about it, just get the angle straight and then tap A. You may miss some of the first jumps but in no time mario will start gaining enough speed so that on every jump he lands on the upper stair.
asteron wrote:
There is also probably a limit in the code as to the maximum height that will allow a transposition (an upper limit on the stair effect). So mario should be able to walk over any small object.
I don't think i follow. You mean the height a plataform must be above the one mario is standing so that when he pushes against it he climbs it instead of being blocked? Obviously. But this is no BLJ effect, it's the normal phisics of the game. That's why mario can walk on stairs without needing to jump every step.
asteron wrote:
Actually when I think about it this way... if mario could obtain enough initial backwards momentum he should be able to BLJ up slopes. The trouble though is getting the initial momentum as with stairs you can just use a few multi boost-jumps (via transposition abuse) to slip into the hyper-BLJ mode.
Slopes do seem to allow for that, but just the slopes where you can do normal longjumps (some slopes don't allow you to crouch and do the LJ. But then again, there are no stairs or elevators in front of such slopes as i recall.
asteron wrote:
Maybe if mario slides backwards off a steep enough slope and hits an upwards slope he would have the required speed? Steeper upwards slopes would require less initial backwards speed.
Of course sliding phyics might interfere... the upwards slope might be limited to ones you are allowed to walk on...
slides backwards...? you can't starts longjumping from a sliding position, or an standing sliding position even. You can only start LJ from forward movement. So if during a BLJ effect you stop doing the continuous BLJ and gets into sliding, there's no way to start BLJ again unless you start moving forward.
asteron wrote:
FODA you might want to look out for these situations. I'll try to think of somewhere this would come into play...
It doesn't get any more complicated than what i already said. Still, i'll talk about what you said, because there are some imprecisions.
What friction are you talking about? ground friction? BLJ can be done by touching the ground for a single frame time, and this doesn't change whether you jump high or low. The amount of ground friction is the same for every jump. This is not the reason for the accumulated speed gain.
No friction is not the reason of the boost but is always present. It explains why you cant gain speed by BLJ on flat terrain. The speed boost though overcomes it when you are doing hyper BLJs.
FODA wrote:
Yes, that's what i said, when you jump to a higher plataform, you land on it.
Sorry for repeating you, it took me a while to write that post and didnt see yours.
FODA wrote:
It's not possible to jump on every stair... there's no limit to the speed you can acquire with BLJ.
I meant to use 'max' as a simple upper limit.
FODA wrote:
What you're basically saying is that if i miss landing on an upper plataform i can try and land on the next BLJ? I don't see any place where this could be used, because there aren't stairs in front of slopes or anything like that. It's either get it right or try again.
I was thinking along the lines of angling diagonally up stairs so you can store speed in a blocked direction. The point was that at the beginning you are not necessarily jumping at each frame.
FODA wrote:
here you contradict what you said earlier, yep, each jump may send you through several stairs.
Again I was thinking of an upper bound without necessarily considering aliasing effects
FODA wrote:
The way to do this is real time for me, is press "A" as fast as possible. There's not much science about it, just get the angle straight and then tap A. You may miss some of the first jumps but in no time mario will start gaining enough speed so that on every jump he lands on the upper stair.
Yeah I was trying to describe the effect in more detail. The point was that you need to get some boosts off of the stair skips until you are guanarteed to hit stairs.
FODA wrote:
I don't think i follow. You mean the height a plataform must be above the one mario is standing so that when he pushes against it he climbs it instead of being blocked? Obviously. But this is no BLJ effect, it's the normal phisics of the game. That's why mario can walk on stairs without needing to jump every step.
Yeah this was actually just me thinking out loud about stairs. I was actually considering if moving up slopes uses the same code... and maybe a similar downward skip exists for walking downstairs and going down slopes.
FODA wrote:
slides backwards...? you can't starts longjumping from a sliding position, or an standing sliding position even. You can only start LJ from forward movement. So if during a BLJ effect you stop doing the continuous BLJ and gets into sliding, there's no way to start BLJ again unless you start moving forward.
I have slid backwards to get a significant speed and upon jumping out of it landed on flat ground with considerable backwards walking speed. I was thinking about this effect.
Actually I just remembered about all the crazy steep slopes in Bowser 3. I think it might be possible to BLJ up those if you do frame perfect jumps... hmm
EDIT: Well I tried out bowser 3 and there ARE a few slopes you can BLJ up :) The super steep ones have very weird physics (you can tiptoe up them but you cant stand on them without falling), but they still might be possible with perfect frame jumps. There are though a few fairly steep ones that you can just stand on and they are pretty easy to BLJ up. I found them in the steep green metal area before the arrow lift. I dont see a compelling reason to BLJ there but if its possible there it could be possible on other slopes in the game :) A 45 degree slope you can stand on is pretty easy to manage on a console but Im sure in a TAS you could handle more shallow angles, especially if there is a way to get the initial backwards velocity.
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asteron wrote:
No friction is not the reason of the boost but is always present. It explains why you cant gain speed by BLJ on flat terrain. The speed boost though overcomes it when you are doing hyper BLJs.
You can't gain speed on flat terrain because of what i said: you need to jump again "before the first longjump ended". I believe there's an acceleration value that starts high when you first do the jump and it starts to decrease as time passes. If you manage to jump again before this value reaches 0 it will accumulate. This was evident when i did some BLJ on big boo's haunt (by using the secret books as low ceiling for mario to jump). At that place it was possible to get "limitless" speed, but it took more jumps than it would on a stair to actually start going through walls.
