Post subject: Castle of Dragon, Preliminary Run
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Hello all, I have just made my first timeattack. The game in question, as you can tell from the topic, is Castle of Dragon (or Dragon Unit, as it's known in Japan). The arcade version of this is one of my favorite obscure titles (swords, anime, and a kickass heavy-metal soundtrack, some 9 or 10 years before Guilty Gear no less!), and I have a soft spot for the NES version as well even though it's much worse. So, anyway, I made this my choice for my first timeattack. It was done with the patched version of FCE Ultra, which works perfectly fine as far as I can tell (movie plays back perfectly and everything). It would be greatly appreciated if someone could host the movie file for me, so I could receive feedback from you guys. Here are some various notes to help you all make more sense out of this game: - The total time for this run was 8:36, and I used 303 rerecords. Quite a few of these were on stupid stuff, mainly determining that my multiple savestate slots were all at the right places. Also, if anyone cares, the whole thing was played at 25% speed. Not sure what most people do, but this worked fine for me. - There are 8 levels. The first three are your route to the castle, and the last 5 all take place in said castle. Levels 4-7 can be done in any order, it doesn't make any difference in time. You actually can go to the last level once you reach the castle, but if you haven't beaten the other four, you will not be able to hurt the last boss. - The whole game is basically boss fights, with a few inconsequential normal enemies and some annoying jumps thrown in there. - The control is just HORRIBLE, which is the main reason those jumps are so annoying. Everything is so slow and clumsy... - I don't ENTIRELY go for fastest time in this one...I show off by making some difficult jumps over sets of enemies. This is slower because there is a slight pause before you jump. - You start out with a sword. The second-level boss gives you throwing knives, and the third-level boss gives you a spiked mace. The knives are your only long-range weapon, but they do the least damage (with a couple exceptions, which I'll mention later). I mainly use the mace after getting it, as it has longer range than the sword and usually is by FAR your most powerful weapon. There are also two powerups which some enemies drop: The Flame Sword and the Lightning Sword. The former shoots a multi-hitting wave at the enemy, while the latter shoots a homing lightning bolt that is EXTREMELY powerful. Both of these are always worth picking up, with one possible exception (again, will get to this later). - If you want a fast time in this game, you have to fight ugly and take many, MANY hits. It's possible to make a run where you dodge just about everything (there are a few hits here and there that you HAVE to take), but that makes battles take forever (mainly because of your high and floaty jump). - Armor, in this game, basically gives you two lives. When your lifebar while in armor runs out, you revert to your normal look and have another full lifebar. If you pick up a suit of armor while without it, you put it on but your lifebar doesn't change any. On the other hand, if you pick up armor while already in it, your lifebar is filled up completely. Hence, I almost always pick up the armor icons. - Fairies fill up your lifebar but push you back a tiny bit, costing you some time. - You gain levels by killing minibosses and bosses. The meter to the right of your lifebar is the experience meter. It only affects the amount of life you have, not damage or any other attributes. Also, if you die, you go back to the beginning of the game but your experience level remains the same. - Against the giant blue dragon and the weird chicken thing, the knives hit multiple times. This is why I use it against them in my run. - If the enemies are pushed back into the corner, they sometimes take damage but usually don't. This is why I tend to hesitate when attacking with my mace...I want them to get closer to me so they don't get pushed back that far. - You randomly take a couple points of damage from swinging the mace sometimes. - I absolutely DESPISE the boss of the fire level. You'll know why if you've seen the run. Sometimes, in a real game, I can beat him without losing my armor, but such was not the case in this run. Hm... - To beat your mirror image in the last level, you have to lose your armor, and then lose half of the second lifebar. The fastest way to do this is to walk into him constantly. - I use the sword against the last boss because it's the only thing that hurts him. Also, his hitbox seems to be quite random, as sometimes I hit him right in his head (his weak spot) and nothing happens. There are a couple wasted slashes that looked like they should have hit him. - Various possible points of improvement in the run: 1. Do a better job against the purple guy in the first castle level I did. He got stuck in the corner often, which resulted in the mace doing little damage. 2. Don't use the fire sword in the 7th level I did. The mace seems to kill harpies much faster. 3. Use the mace against the blue dragon and Chicken Thing. It may still do more damage than the knives, I am not sure about this. 4. Don't waste any slashes vs. the last boss. 5. Just control enemies' randomness in general, to make them constantly come to me. 6. Let Chicken Thing destroy my armor. This greatly reduces the amount of time spent on the evil mirror image in the last level, as your lifebar gets refilled after each level. In the run I had some "armor" life left, and it got completely refilled resulting in a longer battle against him. 7. Determine which fairies are worth using and which ones aren't. Remember, they slow you down a tiny bit. That's it, hopefully you'll all get to see what the hell I'm talking about soon. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Joined: 7/11/2004
Posts: 30
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
How big is this moviefile?
"When all else fails, hit it with a sledgehammer." "I know Kung-Fu!" "No, you do not. You're an idiot."
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Something like 40KB. I definitely would have submitted it, except FCE Ultra isn't accepted. And I think that's the only emulator that actually does this game accurately... -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Joined: 7/11/2004
Posts: 30
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Send it to my email dennis.t@idgmail.se and I'll put it up on my webserver account, if you wish.
"When all else fails, hit it with a sledgehammer." "I know Kung-Fu!" "No, you do not. You're an idiot."
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
DAMN YOU TO HELL, FCE ULTRA! DAMN YOU!!! OK, I just did a second version of this in one sitting, and improved it to exactly 8:00. And when I played it back, it somehow desyncs at the first level (the guy slashes after killing the first enemy). I wonder if button-mashing causes this, but I did that all the time in my first version. Ah well...for now I'll tell you what I've figured out from this, game-wise: 1. All of the possible improvements I mentioned turned out to work, with the exception of using the mace on those two bosses (the knives do more damage). 2. I still need to get better at controlling enemies' randomness. How do you guys do it? Mainly, I still haven't figured out how to tell when they've decided what they're going to do... 3. I may not need to jump into any fairies at all. I did so with the one before the last boss, but it didn't take me half my lifebar to beat him IIRC so... 4. A more effective route is to do the fire level last, as you can let the boss quickly destroy your armor before the last level. Anyway, Invoker, I'll hold off on sending until I can get a WORKING sub-8:00 movie. Thanks a lot for the offer, though. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
A few things: 1. I have just finished version 3. The time is now at 7:26, a 34-second improvement from version 2 and a 1:06 improvement from version 1. This time I used quite a few more rerecords than before (375, to be exact). These improvements over my previous movie came mainly from controlling enemy randomness better and utilizing a trick I just figured out. Here's how it works: If you kill normal enemies with the flame sword, its "lifeline" is extended noticeably. Hence, by taking out everything out see with it, you can use it to kill bosses. I use this on the first and third level bosses, and in other levels to kill minibosses more quickly. 2. There is still a bit of room for improvement. It is possible to kill the third boss with the flame sword (in this run I almost do so but not quite), and I need to figure out exactly how many enemies I need to kill with this powerup in order to beat the first boss with it. See, to kill normal enemies you usually have to jump. This is a Bad Thing for two reasons: There is a slight pause before you jump, and you move forward more slowly while jumping than you do while walking (didn't figure this out until this last run). The benefits you gain in boss-fighting are more than worth it, but I still need to figure out exactly how many normal enemies I have to use up time on... Additionally, the run looks a little icky in places. I am not consistent with my strategy (sometimes I walk through enemies, sometimes I jump over them). Also, I still can't get the skeleton mages and the giant blue dragon to do what I want them to. And I lose a second or so on the last boss due to savestating too late and not being able to hit him twice in one particular jump. 3. Invoker, I'd appreciate it if you could host this movie for me. An e-mail has just been sent to you containing a zip file with the movie. 4. Forum denizens, once this movie is hosted, please do check it out and give me some feedback. If you don't have the patched version of FCE Ultra, go HERE and click on the attachment in blip's post to get it. Thanks, Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Could somebody please move this thread to the Workbench forum? That is where it belongs, my mistake. I suppose I could do that if I wanted to, but Bisqwit locked the workbench forum so if I did move it then you wouldn't be able to post in this topic any more. Also, Bisqwit said that "Movie planning can be done in the NES/SNES/Genesis forums".
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Ah, thanks Michael. Wonder what had happened there... OK then, that's it for now. Version 4 beginning tomorrow! -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Joined: 7/11/2004
Posts: 30
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
http://hem.thalamus.nu/~gvp018361/CoD.v3.FunkDOC.zip There, hosted and ready for download.
"When all else fails, hit it with a sledgehammer." "I know Kung-Fu!" "No, you do not. You're an idiot."
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
As a show of gratitude, I have this for you: My Present =) -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
Josh the FunkDOC wrote:
And I lose a second or so on the last boss due to savestating too late and not being able to hit him twice in one particular jump.
So.. why not play back the movie, savestate just before this, and load before the end of the movie?
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Because I'm a total noob and didn't know you could do that. Hell, I don't even know how to make movies in more than one sitting. =P Besides, so many other things to work on...need to make a whole new version anyway. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
OK, version 4 is finally done. Actually know how to stop and resume a movie now, yay. More than twice as many rerecords as the prior version for...a 4-second improvement. Um, I really don't know how I should feel about that. EDIT: Okay, for a further explanation... All of my improvements (controlling enemy randomness, faster methods of fighting the skeletons on the first two stages) turned out to be of the extremely minute variety. Also, there are three enemy battles which I did more slowly than in version 3, so I'll go back to where the first one was and redo the rest of the movie. After that, I finally feel ready to submit this...is there any chance that this site could take an FCE Ultra movie, or would I have to go the speedruns.org route? Please don't tell me to use another emulator, this is the only one I know of which accurately displays this game's graphics. Thanks, Josh.
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
?A?c?t?u?a?l?l?y? ?g?o?o?d?.? ?I? ?f?e?l?t? ?l?i?k?e? ?t?h?a?t? ?a?l?s?o? ?f?i?r?s?t?,? ?I? ?t?h?o?u?g?h?t? ?t?h?a?t? ?l?e?s?s? ?r?e?-?r?e?c?o?r?d?s? ?s?h?o?w?e?d? ?g?r?e?a?t?e?r? ?s?k?i?l?l?s?.? ?A?n?d? ?y?e?a?h?,? ?I? ?g?u?e?s?s? ?i?t? ?i?s? ?l?i?k?e? ?t?h?a?t? ?b?u?t? ?t?h?a?t??s? ?n?o?t? ?t?h?e? ?p?o?i?n?t?.? ?A? ?g?o?o?d? ?m?o?v?i?e? ?i?n?c?l?u?d?e?s? ?l?o?a?d?s? ?o?f? ?r?e?-?r?e?c?o?r?d?s?!?
/Walker Boh
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
The more re-record the better it is.
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Edited my last post with a couple things.
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
My sort-of version 5 is done. Another 10 seconds of improvement, due to speeding up those boss fights I mentioned plus finding new ways to improve the blue dragon and the last boss. Total time is down to 7:12 now, and this version totaled 1335 rerecords. There are a couple other ideas I have for improvement (five of the bosses, to be specific), so I'll hold off on submitting anything. I love everything up to the blue dragon, so that's where I'll start off next time...somewhere between 7:05 and 7:10 should be possible. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
OK, the quasi-Version 6 is done and I ever so slightly beat my prediction. The time is down to 7:04, with almost 1700 rerecords this time. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
YESSSSSS!!! After figuring out how to beat some bosses faster and further extend the life of the flame sword, I finally got under 7 minutes (albeit only 18 frames short)! I'm done with this game now... -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Post subject: Castle of Dragon
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
I noticed on the MoviesToObsoleteFrom2004 page that someone is working on this game, and since I did some work on this a long time ago I thought I'd share what I know to the mystery TASer who is working on this: 1. First off, I'd like to point to the WIP I posted. It beats about half the game, and is several seconds ahead. You can probably improve it further with some patience. 2. Pressing left+right when the screen is scrolling and you're standing at the right part of the screen will make the screen scroll a lot faster. See my WIP for this. 3. $0539 decides how long your weapon will last. By shooting, you can stop this timer, so you'll want to continue shooting if you want to keep the weapon for a boss later on. 4. When using a weapon that deals continuos damage, look carefully at th enemys' HP (stored at $032A) to make sure you deal as much damage as possible, since the amount of damage you deal with such as weapon vary greatly depending on your relative positions. Otherwise, this game is mostly trial and error, so you'll just have to test different stragies. Here are the RAM addresses I have:
0301 X|pos
0300 Y|pos
00F2 Screen|X|pos
030A HP
032A Enemy|1|HP
0321 Enemy|1|X|pos
x0512 Weapon
0539 Weapon|last
0311 Shot|X|pos
00F6 Screen|speed
| |
| |
06FD Level
0536 EXP
030B Timer
03CA Dragon|HP
0305 Attack|on|3
| |
| |
| |
| |
0306 RNG
| |
| |
Good luck!
NitroGenesis
He/Him
Editor, Experienced player (556)
Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873
I'm the one working on this! also, i've seen your WIP.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
NitroGenesis
He/Him
Editor, Experienced player (556)
Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873
I'm posting this: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/383881709/cod-wip-nitrogenesis.fm2 so I don't overwrite it or anything. Feel free to ask questions! (and use old ppu)
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Joined: 8/27/2009
Posts: 159
Location: California
I'm posting this. Encode. Question, why do you jump before shooting each time, and why don't you get closer? Does the period of invulnerability after a hit last so long you can be on the opposite side of the screen with the sword without losing time?
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
You can only move forward and attack at the same time during a jump, if you attack on the ground you always stand still, and it's usually a good idea to keep moving forward during fights. The reason why he had quite some distance to the enemy is just as you said, the sword blast will deal damage to the enemy as long as it is in touch with him, that's why it's faster to lure the enemy towards the middle of the screen before shooting. The flail works in the same way, it's faster to have the enemy as close to you as possible before attacking him, so he takes more damage. The WIP is looking good, I'm looking forward to seeing the finished run!
Joined: 8/27/2009
Posts: 159
Location: California
Hey, nitro, just got your YouTube comment. Sorry about not crediting you, it slipped my mind on your video. I commented back there, but they don't really notify you about profile comments well, so I figured I'd post here to let you know I'd edited the video's description.