Random question about special stages: If holding up saves a small amount of time, doesn't that mean walking backwards wastes time because you're not holding up then? What about holding down when you're walking backwards, does that help? Also, I am guessing that holding up only helps for 1 frame of each turn you make; if it constantly changed anything it would save more than 30 or so frames, and turning is the only action you do that few times throughout the stage.
Whenever there was a sequence that involved walking backwards, I tested the amount of time it took to complete the special stage if I continued backwards along sprint-god's planned route, vs if I resumed going forward at the first turn (where it takes the least amount of time).
Switching from back to forward seems to waste at least 6 frames of redundant movement, but there's been one case so far where it got me to the emerald faster.
Moving backward seems to prevent acceleration, the counter still accumulates as normal, but the acceleration won't happen until you return to forward movement. As a result, I suspect that holding down while going backwards would be useless. That and when I tried it on one special stage there was no noticable change.
You might be right about the turning thing. That would make sense with the behavior I've observed.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
You probably already know this, but the type of bonus stage that you get is solely influenced by the number of rings that you have whne you touch it. Depending on your strategy, you might have a reason for wanting one over the other.
There's a FAQ about it at GameFAQs, but they are a bit draconian about direct linking to files, so I can't give you a link. But you can find it on the page for Sonic and Knuckles.
You probably already know this, but the type of bonus stage that you get is solely influenced by the number of rings that you have whne you touch it. Depending on your strategy, you might have a reason for wanting one over the other.
I don't think he's playing any bonus stages at all. Only special stages, to get emeralds. There's only 1 type of special stage that I know of, the collect-blue-orbs kind.
I don't think there are any plans to enter a bonus stage (as opposed to a special stage) at any point in this run. They're all time-consuming, and the best result Knuckles can hope for is getting to 50 rings in order to go super. I don't know of any place where you could get to 50 in a bonus stage faster than you could get to 50 by progressing normally through the level.
I don't think there are any plans to enter a bonus stage (as opposed to a special stage) at any point in this run. They're all time-consuming, and the best result Knuckles can hope for is getting to 50 rings in order to go super. I don't know of any place where you could get to 50 in a bonus stage faster than you could get to 50 by progressing normally through the level.
Well, there is a second use for bonus stages -- the only way to turn back to normal after going super is by beating the level, or entering a bonus stage.
As, once he's got 50 rings, knuckles can't glide without going super, this could be useful to conserve rings for a boss (I'm looking at you Sandopolis, and Flying Battery).
At least, if there weren't the matter of waiting around for the star circle to form, it could be.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
I thought that I heard the words "Bonus Stage" mentioned in this thread, that's why I mentioned it. And they maybe do have a use to build up rings, although the way that you freaks play, that's hardly an issue...
But if my memory serves me right, it costs you nearly 10 seconds to go in, then come back out, and that's a bloody long time in any Sonic game...
New wip here
Completes through ice cap.
Also redid quite a lot in Angel Island, Hydrocity, and Marble Garden. Prior viewers should watch again from the start.
Well, okay, you can skip the menu.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Looks good. But, the start to Hydrocity 1 can be done at least 73 frames faster still. (movie)
And about 30 seconds into that level, you can move left then right to have more momentum when you get over the wall, saving at least 10 frames because the propeller won't lift you as high.
Also, why not use the through-the-wall Hydrocity 1 glitch that SprintGod used? (movie 82 frames faster, a little better is probably possible)
It seems like there should be a way to beat that boss faster, as well.
about 35 seconds into angel island one. can't you hold right until the last possible frame where holding left will not touch the wall to end up a little closer to the rocks you spindash through?
For hydrocity 1, are we absolutely sure going down into the water at the start and messing with the conveyers is faster than taking the upper route?
for marble garden one: so is regular sonic the only way to beat this boss before it gets too high?
for marble garden 2 boss: uh, why did you leave two hits till the end?
For Ice cap 2 boss, why don't you just glide and stay in the air at the beginning. you could get a hit early probably.
For hydrocity 1, are we absolutely sure going down into the water at the start and messing with the conveyers is faster than taking the upper route?
Unless there's a glitch that allows Knuckes to glide or move to the right faster than normal while falling, taking the upper route involves climbing up the wall.
about 35 seconds into angel island one. can't you hold right until the last possible frame where holding left will not touch the wall to end up a little closer to the rocks you spindash through?
I believe I already am.
Edit: oh, you're right, I'm not. This could maybe save a frame or two, I'll try it.
Edit2: Oh yeah, i don't do it because if I have more than about 1 pixel per frame of leftwards momentum when I land, I can't spindash without spending an extra 5 frames. This is why I currently don't even hold left all the way down.
IdeaMagnate wrote:
bkDJ wrote:
For hydrocity 1, are we absolutely sure going down into the water at the start and messing with the conveyers is faster than taking the upper route?
Unless there's a glitch that allows Knuckes to glide or move to the right faster than normal while falling, taking the upper route involves climbing up the wall.
Furthermore, the upper route involves skipping the first giant ring, which would delay getting Super Knuckles until sometime in carnival night 2.
bkDJ wrote:
for marble garden one: so is regular sonic the only way to beat this boss before it gets too high?
Sprintgod does it by getting the first hit from beneath, and using the lightning shield to jump through. Knuckles can't do that.
bkDJ wrote:
for marble garden 2 boss: uh, why did you leave two hits till the end?
No matter how many times you hit him while he's drilling, it will take at least one hit once tails comes in.
But more to the point, Knuckles can't jump high enough to get any more hits in any time where the boss isn't already flashing.
bkDJ wrote:
For Ice cap 2 boss, why don't you just glide and stay in the air at the beginning. you could get a hit early probably.
I can't just glide left, because it's a spindash jump, so I have to turn around. And even if I start gliding from the peak of the jump, by the time I've turned around, I'll be below where the platform is when I currently land on it.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
It seems like there should be a way to beat that [Hydrocity 1] boss faster, as well.
I was right; at least 144 frames faster is possible by jumping from the left wall (movie). I forgot to check if gliding before the last hit on the boss can save even more time (it probably can).
At the start of Hydrocity 2, jumping underwater there slows you down a lot, so you can save some frames (at least 11 getting to the same spindash position) by continuing to roll for a while and re-spindashing as necessary.
About 11 seconds in, why do you do a full-power spin dash and jump a few frames later? A weak dash and a sooner jump saves a few (at least 5) frames.
Do you need that bubble shield that you get after glitching through the slide the first time? If not, you can save ~30+ frames by glitching through the slide further down it.
It seems like there should be a way to beat that [Hydrocity 1] boss faster, as well.
I was right; at least 144 frames faster is possible by jumping from the left wall (movie). I forgot to check if gliding before the last hit on the boss can save even more time (it probably can).
Initially I did it slow so that the pillar would be in the right position in HC2.
I haven't yet taken the time to redo it.
Although from current, (with your additions to HC1) I can only actually save about 56 frames without the pillar in HC2 blocking me.
So after doing thos fixes in the beginning of HC2, I can only really afford to speed the boss up by ~30 frames.
nitsuja wrote:
At the start of Hydrocity 2, jumping underwater there slows you down a lot, so you can save some frames (at least 11 getting to the same spindash position) by continuing to roll for a while and re-spindashing as necessary.
Yeah, I did this before I had the speedometer, and didn't realize that underwater jumps begin losing speed immediately.This shouldn't be a big problem to fix. I'll still want to be standing by the time I hit the ramp, though, so I can do a controlled jump.
nitsuja wrote:
About 11 seconds in, why do you do a full-power spin dash and jump a few frames later? A weak dash and a sooner jump saves a few (at least 5) frames.
An oversight on my part. After the full power spindash, the jump I do is the soonest that i can jump and not be brought to a complete stop (by surface tension?). I didn't play around with spindash strength. I can probably save a few more frames by doing a weaker spindash on the set just above, too.
nitsuja wrote:
Do you need that bubble shield that you get after glitching through the slide the first time? If not, you can save ~30 frames by glitching through the slide further down it.
No, I don't. I was just following Sprint's route without thinking about why Sprint did it there. I feel stupid now. Heh.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
So after doing thos fixes in the beginning of HC2, I can only really afford to speed the boss up by ~30 frames.
It should work to do everything before the pillar as fast as possible, and wait for it to get into position when you get there. Even if it's not really faster, that would raise less questions, since it's obvious you're waiting for it there instead of being inexplicably slow on a boss way back in a previous level.
So after doing thos fixes in the beginning of HC2, I can only really afford to speed the boss up by ~30 frames.
It should work to do everything before the pillar as fast as possible, and wait for it to get into position when you get there. Even if it's not really faster, that would raise less questions, since it's obvious you're waiting for it there instead of being inexplicably slow on a boss way back in a previous level.
Stylistically, I feel that the less time spent with no motion, the better.
For instance spending an extra second defeating a miniboss which, even with the extra time only appears on the screen for about 30 frames, I may not be doing that specific thing as fast as possible, but I'll be in motion. Whereas if I beat the boss as fast as possible and then wait for the pillar, I'll be standing still for an extra second.
For me, and for the average viewer, the version which doesn't wait for the pillar is more entertaining, and shows more planning, than the one which beats the boss as fast as possible.
I will, however, redo the boss so it gets beaten in just the right number of frames to be the same speed as waiting for the pillar.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
So after doing thos fixes in the beginning of HC2, I can only really afford to speed the boss up by ~30 frames.
It should work to do everything before the pillar as fast as possible, and wait for it to get into position when you get there. Even if it's not really faster, that would raise less questions, since it's obvious you're waiting for it there instead of being inexplicably slow on a boss way back in a previous level.
Stylistically, I feel that the less time spent with no motion, the better.
For instance spending an extra second defeating a miniboss which, even with the extra time only appears on the screen for about 30 frames, I may not be doing that specific thing as fast as possible, but I'll be in motion. Whereas if I beat the boss as fast as possible and then wait for the pillar, I'll be standing still for an extra second.
For me, and for the average viewer, the version which doesn't wait for the pillar is more entertaining, and shows more planning, than the one which beats the boss as fast as possible.
I will, however, redo the boss so it gets beaten in just the right number of frames to be the same speed as waiting for the pillar.
Just wanted to throw my opinion in here upthorn. I've been wondering why that boss has been beaten so slowly every time I've watched this, and it bugs me that SprintGod is so very clearly faster here. If I qualify as an average viewer, I'd much prefer beating it quickly and then waiting where the obvious wait is.
Edit: It's kinda like whoeveritwas's suggestion for the Sonic 1 emerald run (where real time was a priority over in-game time), to lose frames here and there throughout each level necessary instead of having a long wait at the goal. That suggestion was pretty much shot down by everyone, and for good reason I think.
Just wanted to throw my opinion in here upthorn. I've been wondering why that boss has been beaten so slowly every time I've watched this, and it bugs me that SprintGod is so very clearly faster here. If I qualify as an average viewer, I'd much prefer beating it quickly and then waiting where the obvious wait is.
Interestingly enough, SprintGod doesn't defeat the boss as fast as possible, so that the pillar will be in the right position.
Also my definition of average viewer is basically the same as who Bisqwit has said that the stars are aimed at: someone who's new to the site and watches TASes primarily for entertainment value, and will notice more if flow is broken than if there's some minor delays in activity which takes place off the screen. So it pretty much categorically excludes any active posters here.
Although, in this particular situation it's irrelevant because:
nitsuja wrote:
What about hitting the signpost to get the pillar in a better position without wasting any in-level time, after beating the boss as fast as possible?
That seems like an excellent compromise I'll do that.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
ok you answered all my points, but why do you think there's wall climing involved for the upper route. back when I played on console as tails, I could fly there from the start. heck, I could even carry sonic over if a friend and I were coordinated enough. you mean to say that you cannot glide from the start as knuckles?
You can't do anything except move left or right when you're falling at the very start of the level. However, Knuckles can glide up there from the platform on the left without doing any climbing. Whether that route change could be made to work well in an all-emeralds run, I don't know.
EDIT: Taking the upper path and still going to the same special stages is a second or two slower than taking the lower path.
bkDJ wrote:
for marble garden one: so is regular sonic the only way to beat this boss before it gets too high?
Sprintgod does it by getting the first hit from beneath, and using the lightning shield to jump through. Knuckles can't do that.
But...Super Knuckles can do this and save 3 timeunits.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2185/MG1boss.gmv
Sorry I can't put the savestate on microstorage and I have no hosts so you'll have to fastforward.
edit* to upthorn: also, maybe a full spindash is not necessary, but I just saved after you spin dashed and tacked this on your gmv.
bkDJ wrote:
for marble garden one: so is regular sonic the only way to beat this boss before it gets too high?
Sprintgod does it by getting the first hit from beneath, and using the lightning shield to jump through. Knuckles can't do that.
That's brilliant and insane.
Thanks for the tip, I'm sure to be using it.
Edt: Dustin: I can't concieve of a way that using a weaker spindash would speed it up. But I guess I might as well test, eh.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
I'm not sure, but from what I've tried, it seems glide speed is determined by how close during or after the peak of the jump you begin the glide, the key to getting a slow straight glide is to hit it at the very peak of a jump and that's what I had to do in order to not lose altitude.
Like if you wait until after the peak of the jump you move much faster but you fall faster as well.
Also a big part of beating that boss like that is canceling the glides momentum, if you just glide into it you get bounced back to the other side of the room, also don't push right too early after cancelling the glide or you'll miss the second hit because of too much momentum and bounching just barely too far.
So in summary, I don't really know if spindash speed transfers to glide speed at all, so it could probably be done with a short spindash. But its probably not any faster to do so.
If anyone has any clearer info about the whole glide thing, I'd like to read it.
edit: spelling(anyfaster isn't a word)
edit2: good point below
Spindash speed does not transfer to glide speed, but it does transfer to jump distance.
Since gliding is slower than jumping we want to get as far to the right as possible before we start the glide, to save time.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
That method of gliding into the boss doesn't actually put you in a position you can't get to by jumping up there and starting/canceling a glide. The only reason it worked in that movie is that it somehow caused the boss to not start moving up when it normally does. Weird...
You still did that slow thing in Marble Garden 2 at around 30 seconds in. If you jump from the spindash above, then glide on the right frame (where arrow on the ceiling is) and immediately cancel and hold right, you'll land on the upper slope under the pulley. You can spin dash immediately upon landing, then continue as normal, saving at least 100 frames.
