Personally I really hate it when a well optimized movie gets rejected simply because its boring (or too long) to watch, or there is another movie with different goals that is more enjoyable.
I would be nice if these movies got published, but with a warning stating that the movie is not all that fun to watch, but is a good demostration of optimization.
Making a TAS is not all about making it enjoyable for others to watch, it is also about the challenge of making a 'perfect' run; these efforts should be noticed, and not thrown away along with all the other "I spent a whole hour making this speed run."
the tools we have can be used for entertainment, or for perfection. often both at the same time.
the stated goal of this site is to produce entertainment though, and I think it's good that way.
Why should a boring, perfect movie be published? There won't be many people watching it, those who do might be disappointed (you know how well warning labels work), and those who would watch a run just for the perfection probably want to watch it on the emulator anyway.
and not thrown away along with all the other "I spent a whole hour making this speed run."
you're telling me you want waste separation.. because one kind of waste doesn't want to be associated with the other? :p
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This topic misses the point of the site. The site isn't about being a record keeper of all games. Rather it picks out the best of the best and displays them. Perhaps another site could be created to keep track of all tas records and host these more "boring" movies, but that has never been the aim here.
Personally I appricate the technical merits that go into a speed run.
If someone posts a boring speed run of a game on your tube, I'm not intrested because
1. I don't know they cheated.
2. I can't see the button combination used during the movie.
For me, many movies I read the author commantary on what stragities were used, and how the game engine works. I then look at the replay as a guide in showing me how it turned out.
I am 99% certian if someone made a well optimized TAS of Pokemon Dungeon Red, the movie would be boring as ever to watch. However I would be very intrested on the techniques used to optimize the entire dungeon ahead of time to minimize the amount of walking from one exit to the next. You are saying such an effort has no place here. I cannot think of any other site that would either.
If someone posts a boring speed run of a game on your tube, I'm not intrested because
1. I don't know they cheated.
Ok, first of all, we are not cheating. We are using no cheats whatsoever. If you are refering to slowdown, frameadvance, and save-states, those are tools. Not cheats. Big difference.
subanark wrote:
2. I can't see the button combination used during the movie.
Yeah, that's a valid point. But the published AVIs don't contain button presses. However, you can just view the movie file. This brings me to my next point...
subanark wrote:
For me, many movies I read the author commantary on what stragities were used, and how the game engine works. I then look at the replay as a guide in showing me how it turned out.
I am 99% certian if someone made a well optimized TAS of Pokemon Dungeon Red, the movie would be boring as ever to watch. However I would be very intrested on the techniques used to optimize the entire dungeon ahead of time to minimize the amount of walking from one exit to the next. You are saying such an effort has no place here. I cannot think of any other site that would either.
You can browse the WIP and Grue forums for runs that aren't or will not be published. The movie files are all there, and if you ask the author, he can provide a description (provided it is not there). The info is available.
There is no point to publish movie that isn't interesting, or has a various amount of no votes, or is deemed non-publishable. The only thing you are missing is an AVI file. But still, it seems like you only want the movie files, because you can't tell if you "cheat" if you just have an AVI, and you can't tell the button presses on an AVI if it not encoded with them (which they aren't).
If we were to provide a description of all movie files on the main page, it would get clutter fast. And it would be WAY too big of a job. AND it would be redundant, since all rejected/WIP runs are available in the forums!!
So I'm sorry, your idea isn't feasible.
It could be a typo; maybe he meant "I don't know if they cheated." It's easy to run across YouTube movies that showcase some Gameshark code.
And subanark, if this has anything to do with your Drill Dozer run... I think that has some potential to make for a non-boring movie, no need to create a new category of movie for that.
This topic misses the point of the site. The site isn't about being a record keeper of all games. Rather it picks out the best of the best and displays them. Perhaps another site could be created to keep track of all tas records and host these more "boring" movies, but that has never been the aim here.
Although you are right about that, I have the feeling that this direction may change some day. The site is already more an archive than a selected-assortments collection, so one day I may extend it to be actually an archive of video-playthroughs of a large set of games.
But today it is not that.
And what I described may not actually happen.
May I note that there are *already* quite some published movies which are very long and boring. Personally I would say that the Bubble Bobble movie is a prime example of this (sorry Mattias).
Bubble Bobble was, IIRC, the first published movie I started skipping forward because it was so numbingly boring.
Joined: 8/26/2006
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How can any movie be fairly categorized as boring (supposing that it is fully-optimised etc.)?
For example, the FF6 run; to those that have never played it would find it difficult to sit through all 4 hours of this run, however, someone who has spent their life playing this game and loving this game such a run would be immensly interesting, just to see the route and tactics of the author.
Most genuinely boring movies come from genuinely boring games and such games will never have a place on this site. Therefore, we are already protected from genuinely boring movies.
I wrote:
1. I don't know they cheated.
Thats a typo, just as nitsuja stated, its ment to say:
1. I don't if they cheated.
The rules of the runs here are: The replay file 'wins' the game. If you have the source code for the game, and know exactly how the random number generators works, then use that to your advantage its not cheating (even though you have an unfair advantage in making the replay). If you have a super computer and have it do portions of the run for you its ok. If a team collabrates to make the replay, thats ok too (give credit where credit is due though).
Tool assisted runs for me are about what is possible, what would the perfect run look like. For me a tool assisted run is "a game was completed in X frames", where as a non-tool assisted run is "play X has completed the game faster than anyone else." TSAs stand on their own, there is not a TSA out there that I think is less enjoyable than a non-assisted speed run (of the same game and goals).
I think a well optimized run (with reasonable goals) should be accept regardess of the game.
Perhaps a run could have ratings:
1. Fun to watch
2. Professional (well optimized)
Games on the site must pass both of these criteria to get published. It would be rare to see a run that meets the first, but not the second, since a professional is either out or in the making.
Boring runs do occationaly get accepted, e.g. Mario Legend of the 7 stars. I could not bear to sit though that movie without fast-foward. The main fall back on that is its very long, but the game is popular enough to warrent a published status.
P.S. The run I'm currently doing (if I ever finish) I think is fun enough to watch.
I wrote:
1. I don't know they cheated.
Thats a typo, just as nitsuja stated, its ment to say:
1. I don't if they cheated.
The rules of the runs here are: The replay file 'wins' the game. If you have the source code for the game, and know exactly how the random number generators works, then use that to your advantage its not cheating (even though you have an unfair advantage in making the replay). If you have a super computer and have it do portions of the run for you its ok. If a team collabrates to make the replay, thats ok too (give credit where credit is due though).
Tool assisted runs for me are about what is possible, what would the perfect run look like. For me a tool assisted run is "a game was completed in X frames", where as a non-tool assisted run is "play X has completed the game faster than anyone else." TSAs stand on their own, there is not a TSA out there that I think is less enjoyable than a non-assisted speed run (of the same game and goals).
I think a well optimized run (with reasonable goals) should be accept regardess of the game.
Perhaps a run could have ratings:
1. Fun to watch
2. Professional (well optimized)
Games on the site must pass both of these criteria to get published. It would be rare to see a run that meets the first, but not the second, since a professional is either out or in the making.
Boring runs do occationaly get accepted, e.g. Mario Legend of the 7 stars. I could not bear to sit though that movie without fast-foward. The main fall back on that is its very long, but the game is popular enough to warrent a published status.
P.S. The run I'm currently doing (if I ever finish) I think is fun enough to watch.
Boring runs are in the eye of the beholder for the most part. This is why we rely on the voting decision to help decide if movies should be published.
I see nothing wrong with what we have been doing, and no need to change it.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
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Like Bisqwit said, the possibility to publish a movie for every game has been discussed before.
I'm a fan of that option, but i also agree that it doesn't suit the current format (of having only entertaining runs). Maybe one solution would be to publish the movie but don't make an avi for it. Rating would take care of labeling it as boring, instead of a single person's judgement.
I would perfer a focus on TASing new games, rather than going for that 5% improvement on existing good runs. Most of these runs are just a tad bit more optimized and are not really any more enjoyable then the movie they replace.
I don't want to see people discouraged since they picked a 'bad game' to TAS.
I would perfer a focus on TASing new games, rather than going for that 5% improvement on existing good runs. Most of these runs are just a tad bit more optimized and are not really any more enjoyable then the movie they replace.
Not always true. Most of the time, improvements [as big as] 5% come from the increased precision or some new tricks, and generally are more fascinating to watch. That becomes especially apparent with games that have somewhat complex movement systems, like Umihara Kawase, Sonic series, Metroid series (well, except NES Metroid), GBA Castlevania series and the like. Even small overall improvement looks different enough. Personally, I'd rather see runs of the games I like and am familiar with done better and better, than see a lot of probably good (as I can't always judge the quality of a run of a game unknown to me) runs of the games that would not appeal to me.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Also I agree that watching the improvement of some movies has been one of the most interesting thing in this whole TAS community thing. While one might hastily think that improvements just prove that the earlier version was nost perfect and thus it's a bit of a disappointment, it actually doesn't feel like that at all. Instead, improvements show the TASing perfection achievable with the current knowledge and experience, and it's quite interesting to follow how these things have developed during time.
In fact, I would even go so far as to say that I would like to see more improvements on existing movies (especially the old famtasia ones) than movies of new games. (Not that I don't like seeing those too, but I would like to see more improvements.)
Haha, I find it funny that there are games that get weeded out for being "boring" when there are some games that aren't quite up there on the entertainment factor.
(Note that all of this is opinion, and if you get pissy about it, then it's your own fault.)
Take Star Ocean for example. I cannot sit through that TAS for the life of me, and this is despite the fact that I know a good bit of what's going on (haven't played through it all yet, but I'm getting there). The optimization is just incredible, but other than that, it's just plain dull.
Final Fantasy VI is another one. To be fair, I thought the first part of the TAS was absolute win... and then Seltzer came along and Joker Doom'd everything in his path. Yeah, that's some nice optimization for unlocking the slots, but what the fuck? I understand that the aim is to finish the game as possible, but there's not much entertainment when damn near everything get one-shotted.
Chakran the Forever Man. Oh shit don't get me started on that one.
Now there was a run that was rejected a while back, Who Framed Roger Rabbit? True, it was confusing if you didn't know what was going on, but that's true for a lot of games (y helo thar supa demo za worldo). It was short enough to not come across as too boring for too long, and sweet enough to not look too shabby. And that got eaten by a grue. :(
So yeah, I think that the term "boring movie" is subjective, because (looking back from my examples), there are different views on what's boring and what's not. Now repetitive on the other hand is a different matter. It's easier to make a distinction on what's repetitive (i.e. holy shit does all he do is walk?) and what's boring.
At least, that's just the way I see t*ninja!*
I'm not opposed to the idea of having a run for every game either.
There are quite a few games I'd like to see beaten, simply for nostalgia's sake. Most of them probably wouldn't make an entertaining TAS though, and thus would not be acceptable for this site. I think it would be great if one day we did have a TAS for every game, simply so you can see the game that frustrated you as a kid beaten (or pwned, as the kids say).
