I appreciate the honesty here in admitting there were improvements you could make. I will wait for an encode to watch before I cast a vote.
I do think unexplained no-votes are still terrible things and wish the site required a person to make a post in order to vote no. It's just not helpful to anyone to say "I don't like it" and never say why, not to mention it's awful discouraging to a new runner to insult his work without justifying your logic.
I am assuming this TAS will be over 20 minutes of game play, if that is the case a 1-frame improvent is not considered enough of an improvement to get accepted on it's own.
^This. I think there would be public outrage and twenty pages of disagreements and furious posts if a long, high-quality run was obsoleted by a one-frame improvement gained from a technical difference.
For reference, look at the huge controversy that came up around the Japanese OoT run that replaced the USA version. And THAT was in a situation where there were actual, significant game improvements, AND the old run was beaten in real-time.
Of course a big factor in that debate was the language difference being a frame-saver, but just the same, it's proof that many people don't want to see a run be obsoleted merely on technical grounds. The gameplay itself must be more optimal, unless the frame wars are on to the extent we've seen with, say, SM64.
I like that there is an OoT hack but this doesn't really seem significantly different enough from the original game to warrant publication. Keep in mind that a TAS of this game is mostly travel, and a lot of the overworld is exactly the same from what I've seen.
I also might suggest just editing your post instead of triple posting, if only to make you seem more like someone who is competently invested in a TAS and less like Synx or some other OoT fanboy. That sort of presence usually hurts your own interests, as it can come off more annoying than helpful.
I get the sense you might possibly not be an English speaker first, of course, and if that is the case then take my advice with a grain of salt. And I might challenge you to TAS the game yourself if you are interested in it; not a lot of people have any desire to take on a game as difficult to optimize as OoT, much less a variation thereof. (Hell, MM is an official Nintendo game using the same engine and look at all the progress that isn't getting...)
Thanks for sharing. It seems like this is a common problem then. I have to think we should not need to use an older version to avoid something that is likely a relatively easy fix. I'm not entirely sure who to contact or where to go to report known bugs, or if anyone cares... but I'll look around, I guess.
Yeah, I considered some sort of FRAPS or screen-capture device to film me as I'm playing it, then go back and edit the loading of savestates etc. Of course that wouldn't be submittable but it'd be a fun watch. My poor laptop would probably not survive the process, but I have a mean desktop back in the states that could handle it easily enough. Hopefully I have something to show for it soon.
At this point I'll probably just be practicing techniques and optimization. I'm not worried about movie recording yet simply because the desynch issues are too abundant. This is more a test run.
I was going to use the most current revision but the hotkey issues are too game-breaking for me. I'll probably revert to r7323 myself as it's been suggested as most reliable. I do agree that at this point it's unlikely we'll see success in publishable format; we also desperately need an analog TAS input plugin (probably less important for four swords, though, I suppose).
If you do make any progress, recordable or not, please share in an appropriate thread; I love Four Swords and would be glad to offer any suggestions/critiques if they'd help.
What a lonely lil' topic.
I would probably not risk a one-frame gain at this point as there's not really any set precedent for Dolphin-run TASes. The rule with other games with memory cards generally has been conservative; best to assume the worst here as well, I think. Realistically I doubt you would get a run turned down over something like this but I'd be cautious anyway.
I'm having the same problem Phazon described where I can only use non-gameplay buttons (save states, frame advance, etc.) for a few seconds after making the emulator the active window, then the only input it accepts is normal controller inputs.
I'll try the suggested version instead of what I'm using now. In case it doesn't work, Phazon, if you were able to resolve the issue some other way, please let me know.
I did manage to get this game up and running. As I suspected my laptop barely handles the load--it's playable but only at about half speed. I'm also pretty sure a TAS input plugin will be mandatory for any truly impressive works. I'm going to try frame advancing my way through the escape sequence just to see how low (or, rather, high) I can go time-wise.
If anyone has suggestions on things that need testing, I'll be doing a normal playthrough but probably mess around with frame advance at various locations. Just post it here if you want me to look into a particular potential skip or time-saver. I'll be working on this between classes for the next couple weeks, and commit to it full-time when I'm back home, I think.
I think one reason I'm not inclined to balk at this game's publication is because most of the argument against it haven't been used consistently. I realize of course that the publication of questionable games in the past shouldn't justify what happens in the future, but given the sheer amount of early-gen console runs we already have, I feel like this one would just be a humorous drop in the pond. There is already a massive amount of meh-quality games that have been accepted; if the spirit of the rule is to avoid adding to that, I have to question why we keep around so many other games.
Of course nobody wants to be the person who depublishes the first one, but I think unless we go back and clean up the mess that was made long ago, being consistent on this rule now is sort of... pointless. And since it's pretty clear nobody is going to unpublish anything, ever, I have to wonder if it's worth it to be so picky now, when we've already got a massive library of questionable games that are less entertaining than this one.
Anyway, again I realize this argument isn't one that will justify the publication of this run... but you can see why people would say, "come on, what's one more? at least this one's short and funny." It has novelty appeal, which is more than can be said for some other runs. For that, I'm sure it'll at least find a home in Gruefood Delight.
Watched this and not sure what I saw. It is short, and it seems optimal enough, so I'm comfortable voting yes on the assumption that this series is probably enjoyable to people who know what the heck is going on.
I won't make the mistake of arguing votes again... just going to point out that the game appealed to me because of its goofy nature, and that did inform my vote. So, on some level, I'd say the game can be an important factor.
However, by all means, it comes down to this: everyone should vote however they wish. That's what I've learned.
-As for the hack itself, I personally didn't feel there was much rehashing with rooms from the original game. I'm pretty familiar with it as it's a top Metroid game for me, but there's only so much that can be changed without breaking the game. I don't have a very strong knowledge of SM hacks, though. I'm not sure what the game can and can't handle.
This is a would-be Yes vote from me, but I'm still a Lurker, and don't know when that will change.
Having some infamy in the world of SM hacking for a project that I promised would be released 4 years ago, I can tell you a little about the state of SM hacking. Basically, the tools are pretty powerful and you only need a minute knowledge of hex editing to completely repoint to free space; it's possible to easily add in new tilesets and change room sizes/proportions. There is a bevy of information available on the subject (best reference is here). I have gotten a trained eye for hacks over the years and I can also see the rooms that weren't significantly altered; however, in the schema of hacks available, this is definitely one of the more original and interesting ones.
The community around SM hacking is really nice and helpful and it's not at all hard to get into. It takes a long time to make a quality hack and there's still some limitations, but at this point level design is limited mostly to your imagination and creative talent (being good at tileset drawing/ripping also helps).
I believe you need 50 posts to move past "lurker" status.
boct1584 wrote:
The colors being a bit muted gave this a very dark feel. I really liked that. The use of the X-Ray Scope to preserve Speed Echoes was really cool, and overall, I like this a lot more than I like Mockingbird.
Voting YES on this run, and I propose that this run obsolete the Mockingbird run.
I'm curious why you specifically think this should obsolete Mockingbird. I don't know of any mandatory limitation on how many hacks we can have, so it isn't strictly necessary, and to me these are very different viewing experiences. However, I'm rather tired of arguing about voting; if you don't feel like explaining, no worries. I don't think this will get published anyway, because there is a general resistance on the site to hack TASes etc.
I'm still not entirely sure why we can't accommodate hack TASes more liberally, as they have their own section and are already guaranteed to be watched mostly by fans of the original game--I would think that it wouldn't hurt to have four or five runs of different good-quality hacks for popular games. But of course that's just my two cents.
Thank you! I still don't understand why anyone would want all those comments going over the video, but whatever, I know how to turn them off. It must be a cultural thing.
Having watched it, yes, it's a great improvement. Makes sense that it'd be faster to level up enough to kill the boss before he can use that slow, time-consuming wing smash attack.
mklip2001 wrote:
Could somebody more familiar with the game explain more of what's going on here? I'm curious how the players are all of a sudden able to dash a lot near the end.
PoR has a pretty easy-to-abuse suspend glitch (can be done in real time). Basically, after saving the game, if you suspend on the veeeeeery edge of a screen, the game thinks you're in the next room when you aren't; when it loads you back in, it can do crazy stuff, like launch you at high speeds or toss you into an entirely new area.
At about 2:32 the runner uses this glitch to teleport himself into a room in the Throne Room area that has the Speed Up spell floating. The text is scrolled too quick to see it, but he equips that spell right as he does the next suspend, then is using it to move very quickly for the rest of the game. It's similar to the Black Panther soul in the other Castlevania games.
The series as a whole is fun to play through and I recommend giving it a try if metroidvanias have any interest for you at all.
I'm going to be very disappointed if we don't have about 8 more submissions of this game. Ideally it can approach SM64 levels of optimization. I think that'd be a good way to spend our time.
Yes vote again for Moses' mother getting all New Testament and having more faith than Peter.
I agree that this game is pretty basic and not very interesting to run, but it is short enough that I can enjoy it, if only for the laughs. It's a shame we don't have a "lols" category for submissions... but I guess if we can't publish colored dinosaurs, this will go down in like form.
Enjoyed watching the YouTube encode. It seems pretty optimal and I think the hacks section is pretty sparse overall anyway. I don't really understand the practice of turning down TASes of hacks that aren't groundbreaking. I think this one would be fine and I enjoyed watching it through--it's definitely different enough from SM in my book. Yes vote.
Only good way to make any sense of the plot is to ignore all the obvious evidence that it's a stupid storybook ending and adhere to the "Rinoa = Ultimecia" argument. This isn't a spoiler because it's not true, but god, I wish it was. (Also, why we're using spoiler tags in a game that came out when I was in high school is confusing.)
Patiently and excitedly (yes, both) waiting for an encode, as I have no way of accessing my ROM collection from here. Ironically I am actually the kind of person who has bought every game he has ever had on a computer... Anyway, there's almost no way I can imagine I won't end up yes-voting an improvement of such significance, but of course I'll wait and see what we get.
mtbRc: Hello, and welcome to TASvideos : ) Your English is much better than my Japanese so do not worry. I understood what you said perfectly and I do not think anyone will have trouble reading your words.
Before you throw in the towel and wait for memory watching tools, I'd at least play around with the game some and see if you can't find any other ways to manipulate (changing equipped weapons, opening chests, rescues, etc). I can't remember this game too well as my copy was ruined shortly after I finished playing it, but there's surely some ways to advance the RNG that are more efficient than battle saves. It'll at least be worth experimenting if you haven't already.
For the sake of sanity, I would probably not go into hundreds of battle saves unless each one is a significant time saver. I think it'd be an acceptable speed/entertainment tradeoff to lower your segment count to a couple dozen and use saves only when manipulating the RNG will make for an impressive view. That's also going to require reset re-recording, wouldn't it? Does Dolphin support that already?
Edit: Never mind, battle saves, duh.
... I was seeing these highly standarded (?) TASes on Youtube to see what people comment about them, and this one on Rockman 12:23.34 ... really put me to think... the person said something like "If TASes break a game so badly, what's the point, just jump to the ending"
That isn't the perspective of a "regular person." I'd say he's the minority. I grew up with lots of friends of various levels of geekiness and nerdiness. I was the first of us to stumble upon TASVideos, and I've slowly spread the word, but not once has anyone watched even the most broken of videos and said "I don't like this because there's too many glitches."
I think on the internet you just get people who like to disagree for no particular reason. This is a pet peeve for me--people somehow seem to think that their voices are unique if they provide dissent, like the kind of person who goes around on YouTube posting "dont be stupid thats obv. fake" in comments. These people are trolling, intentionally or seriously... they are cynical shadows in the forms of human beings, offering nothing but negativity as though that somehow helps in mass amounts. Not that they give a shit about helping anyone.
"Laugh and the world laughs with you; cry, and you cry alone." Well, bitch at everything, and everyone will think you're a bitch. In other words, while it's good to stop and think about someone else's viewpoint when it doesn't level with yours, it's important not to forget that some people's opinions are only worth the substance behind them, and I don't think a post complaining that a game is "too broken" was a post that was really thought out.
It has been suggested several times in the past that all games should deserve a published TAS (at least if it's technically without obvious flaws) because all games have value to some people, and at least some people would enjoy seeing a TAS of a game they once played, or are otherwise curious about the game in question (or about a TAS of it). The rating system is there for people who want to see the most "entertaining" and "technically awesome" TASes if they want to. Don't remove the fun from those who would want their obscure childhood game being TASed.
This plea has always fallen to deaf ears, so the policy is not likely to change anytime soon.
I haven't ever particularly minded this argument. However, I think we do have a good runner-up for this function in the blessed shrine.
