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D.A.M.N.
I think that's a good idea to just get to the credits as fast as possible.
This is turning out so much better, and any reason why people complained from the first submission is getting addressed... it's faster, it has more variety, is more entertaining/less repetitive, is more precise, and will be shorter for total movie length.
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I have a bit of a dilemma. I finally beat my 1-01 time of 6.35", something Deign and I had been trying to get for a while, and that we deemed impossible, but I finally beat it by 0.02". Even though I'm currently on Missile Surf, I have had this annoying itching sensation at the back of my head ever since I've been working on this that there might be a few stages where it can be slightly faster. Not only does this game have some incredibly random encounters where you can do something much faster (bosses and minibosses come to mind) but there's just always that 1% chance that you missed a frame somewhere or that you can make one spot juuuust slightly faster.
So I kinda want to redo for the 2nd time, even though I'm so far already. Reasons:
-I still feel like I have not searched for the absolute limit for the lowest time a stage can be for every single stage (for most I have.) Some I feel I made too quickly, and kept because it beat Nitsuja's time.
-This site aims for perfection, and I want this run to be as perfect as possible. I do not want to say "list of possible improvements" in the submission page, nor do I want to do a second version.
-I need to get rid of this itchy feeling in the back of my head
-I think I have already found a few places where I know I can save some frames
-I finished world 1 and world 2 in one month. I might not make the 2008 deadline, but it's not too much of a setback.
-I can TAS all stages faster since I know what to do, and can hex in stages I know to be perfect to save time.
I want everyone's thoughts on this matter.
P.S: Moozooh don't kill me :-)
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JXQ wrote:
Values in memory don't have to represent pixels per frame, either. For example, Mario's top flying speed in Super Mario World is 51, but it isn't 51 pixels per frame. I'm not sure what a good consistent measurement system would be for all platforms.
Also, do any of these games not run at 60fps by default? If so then the pixels/frame would need to be adjusted to an average over 2 or 3 frames.
I'm talking about a completely different address that tells exactly how many pixels per frame you're going. It doesn't exaclty conform to the numbers of the widely variable addresses used for speed (like the speed address you mentioned for SMW.)
Some N64 games don't run at 60 FPS, they can clock in at 20, 30, or varying amounts.
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well, Adelikat has found pixel coordinates in 3D games (Glover, Mario Kart 64, etc.) so it should be possible to find out how many pixels per frame you're going assuming you go along only the X or Y. However, I was guessing that in any 3d-ish game you could use a speedometer, if present to gauge speed. Also, I have found general velocity address (the horizontal velocity of a character in the direction that he is facing) for Majora's Mask, and I know from many games that if there's a speed address, there's also a pixels/frame address, so that should be possible too.
More mentions:
-Super Monkey Ball/Super Monkey Ball 2
-the GC 3D sonic games
-Pilotwings 64, using the gyrocopter and some techniques to reach 2400 km/h speeds
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hey, I like that you're working on this druski. I noticed a few improvements you made, but as pirate and moozooh mentioned, there's a few things to be noted:
-getting the gravekeeper earlier: throw a spear at the top of one of the down hill slopes like pirate does, you'll get backdash as soon as you get out of the water.
-backdashing up slopes: pirate (and yrr and klmz) do this:
AL
A
A
A
(3 frame wait)
repeat
it seems more smooth and slightly faster
-switching souls often is really good, it adds a lot of variety. The skeleton soul is helpful in that it can speed up the creaking skeleton fight, and also you can attack enemies above you. the creaking soul is really nice in that it deals a lot of damage, and has an incredible reach, both above you and to the right of you, and plus it has that tasty glitch that pirate found.
Pirate's first WIP, although obsolete, was in my mind the most exciting because it used a huge variety of the souls he had gathered (enchanted arrow, muer, etc.) and he'd constantly do two things: activate some attack that would grab a soul of even a monster that fell behind him, or set up multiple attacks that would kill a big monster in his way without slowing down at all (enchanted arrow from one screen back, muer, a spear, and a dagger attack.) This multitude of soul using (in my mind, the "all souls run" should use the souls in various and numerous ways) and attacking was very entertaining, it was a flurry of movement and attacks that I could barely follow that all were carefully set up to kill enemies in specific ways.
-does jumping up before you reach uphill slopes and jumping down slopes make you go faster?
yesterday I lost internet before I could post, so this is what I remembered of what I had tried to write.
The all soul is a run I look forward to, so best of luck!
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some more mentions:
-ECCO
-Mischief Makers, when going off a spring (14+ pixels/frame)
-Battle of Olympus using left+right
-F-Zero X (in light of F-Zero being mentioned, these cars go 3,000 km/h)
-Enguarde from DKC3 (seems to go faster than in DKC2)
-Gradius full speed powerups
-Castlevania: HoD: using whip-launch (I've gotten 17 pixels per frame or higher with Maxim)
Now, one more idea I'd like to add is which character has the fastest reaction time (can maneuver throughout obstacles quickly and make many different moves very fast), not just max horizontal speed.
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Been waiting since the agonizing days of Facility.
This run is truly awesomeness.
This is faster than speedy gonzales and entertaining as hell to boot. Star material for sure.
You probably should mention strafing and ladder warps as techniques in your submission text too.
I spend the rest of my day happy. thank you.
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AKA wrote:
1) I'll wait for the AVI, I don't know SDW well enough to be able to properly visualise the improvements mentioned "better this" "more optimized that" is hard to visualise unless the actual submission has been viewed beforehand.
2) Again I'll wait for the AVI, which is why I haven't voted.
I'm not that huge into SMW/SDW either and I can instantly see even frame improvements. I read the submission text first, so I knew what to look for (you should generally ALWAYS do this), and BAM I saw every improvement they mentioned. Wasn't hard at all. One was so major NOT to miss (the crystal...cave....thingie.)
If they say "stage X was improved because of Y" when watching what stage look for Y.
Also, you mentioned how Misty Star world was yawnsnake. First, that phrase is always out of place when not coming from JXQ, and second the autoscroller is the one of the cruxes of entertainment in runs of SDW; there's 5 minutes of pure showing off, and it's usually a flurry of movement, glitches, and insane stunts like juggling, avoiding death, etc.
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Maybe you should have. And yes, memory addresses can tell you anything about the game, you just need to know how to filter for it and what the address's values mean.
Mukki, how did you find the HP values for the bosses, and how accurate are they? I have a HP address for a boss in Mischief Makers, but it seems to randomly have its number change when the boss receives damage, not have a set number that reduces itself to 0.
Also, I want to pop this question now that the any% is complete: what are your thoughts on MM 100%?
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xenos wrote:
I tried but it did not work too well. I don't think the memory adresses will be of great help.
Ok, don't sweat it too much, you do have a speedometer after all. If however you do find yourself in need, just PM Adelikat, he's a genius at finding N64 memory addresses.
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Fabian wrote:
JXQ wrote:
Dear Fabian,
Why doesn't Comicalflop like me?
T-T-Totally Dude,
-Jixie
I'm probably forgetting a lot of the reasons. I think it probably has to do with him being a fan of N64 TASing and you being, well, not. I'm also guessing he feels you complain a whole lot about random shit. I can't recall any specific arguments you two have had at the moment.
I think it has more to do with this never being a part of JXQ's childhood.
No, seriously, I hope I can clear a few things up.... (sorry to have taken so long with this, I had meant to earlier)
I don't hate JXQ, I just disagree sometimes on his opinions. I like some of his TASes, I don't like some others (I loved the Harmony of Dissonance run, but not the SM 100%. SDW 120 star from you was also good, as is your work with sonic.) I like a lot of JXQ's opinions, and some I don't. I'm not a JXQ groupie, but I don't hate him like a certain Phil does.
The reason why it seems I'd dislike you- which I don't- are thus:
-Our views on N64 TASing differ. However, we tended to both present it in the wrong ways- me with too much overzealousness, and you with too much anti-bias, to which I reacted negatively to . At this point, I try not to overdo it, but I still try to help in various ways to get more N64 TASes made, and to not get angry with people who strive for the opposite. JXQ, if you don't like N64 TASes, that's fine, I respect that.
-Our methods of argumentation differ. You have a zany style of humor which can go awry when you either use too much sarcasm to the point of arrogance, or use verbal abuse or an offensive comment made to be funny. I try to stay as clear headed as possible (*see below for an example of when I don't) and to spend as little as I can in insulting people and their intelligence. I probably wouldn't like to get into an argument with you, since we'd do it in different ways and I wouldn't like the outcome. I see too much of the 'JXQ vs. Phil battles' and I'd hate to be on the opposing side of JXQ.
-When a MK64 TAS was submitted a while ago, I got incredibly upset for my reasons, you thoroughly listened to my words and my arguments with full reasoning, analyzed it, and heavily critiqued it. You were spot on the money, as much as I didn't want you to be. Of course, your wording was none too friendly, but you hit the nail on the head. So you were completely right int hat instance, but I didn't like you for it (at the time.)
-I think one of the big things I definitely mis-read was mrz's sdw submission, and you wrote "well, this is submitted, I'd better get to work on improving it" which I misinterpreted as "I'd better re-claim my run." (which, by the way, you did. Awesome job.) I probably accused you of being too much of a 'pride TASer' when there was only that one instance which I mis-interpreted (and you showed me that I was more so at the time. So again, another instance of where I was wrong, and JXQ is right. Which at the time would seem like it'd be reason for me to hate you, but I don't, I try to learn from my mistakes.
You're a good man JXQ. You're a very productive TASer, and have made some fine TASes to this site. I think that besides the OoT TAS there was one of your 11 exit runs that got me into TASing. So yeah, I disagree with you sometimes, when our opinions are opposite and when you prove me to be in the wrong. But I don't dislike you.
Stay cool, keep TASing.
Oh huh, this is a Fabian thread, isn't it?
Hey Fabs.
Um, gosh there's been a ton of questions I had wanted to ask that are already answered.
Ok, here's some:
I don't know if you read science fiction novels, but which novel do you find most likely that our future in this world will mimic?
Would you find cats more useful if they were frozen and used for bowling?
If there was one system besides SNES that'd you'd like to TAS with, what would it be?
Which newest member that has submitted a recent TAS or is making a WIP do you think has the most potential?
Will Nitsuja ever come back? :'-(
Would you host/attend a worldwide TAS party, if there would be one?
Is 'The Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer' really then end of black and white film as one critic put it?
Do you like Lego my Ego waffles?
Have you ever seen a White furry lobster?
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in mupen, go to the same place where you'd see 'start movie playback/recording', somewhere underneath it you'd see 'start AVI recording'. it'll open a file, you select the file you want to save it in and give the avi a file name, and hit save. then a window will pop up asking what codec you want to encode the run with, and if you want to do it multi-pass, etc. if doing basic encodes, choose single pass, choose the codec you want (I usually use h264) and hit ok. unpause the emulator, and it'll start encoding. go to the menu, and under the 'start avi record' there should be now 'stop avi record' which you do once you wish to stop.
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Yowzee. Talk about a truly fantastic improvement, as well as completely befuddling glitches that come as freebies.
Actually, for the record I was 10% more entertained by jf's 120 star misty star world than this version. This was still good, but contained some item juggling that slowed somethings down, and repeated some of the tricks found in 120. The whole run was good, but watching this misty world star's was not as virginity losing as 120 star's was.
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Well, I'm told that MHS works wonders for mupen, but that for other systems, the in-built memory watchers in the emulator are better (since MHS has a harder time knowing which addresses are for the ROM itself and not the emulator.)
I found the speed address for Majora's Mask in about 2 minutes, which is extremely lucky. I still have not found a speed address for OoT, I may or may not have a sub-pixel range speed for Super Mario 64, and I found all my addresses for Mischief Makers (x/y speed, X sub pixel range speed, x/y pixel position, x/y sub pixel position, y sub pixel position of Marina on the screen, etc. etc. I also found an address that sort of shows Migen Jr.'s HP changing) within a day or two. It all varies, and it takes a little practice to know how to filter for the one you're looking for. The best part is that once you're absolutely sure you have the right address, watching it is real easy and it vastly improves the precision.
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you to have MHS be watching mupen.... you go to file, and have it watch process, and select mupen when it's running the and ROM is loaded. In the main window there'll be a blank space, with description, address, current value, type... press the blank white page button, and you can input the address for Link's speed (the address itself, what type, and you can give it a description.) then it will be watching that address.
Memory watch in MHS is a side tool that lets you watch a huge range of addresses of a game at once. it's not what I use for watching, I use the main window that has the expression calculator and found addresses on the left side.
In order to find addresses, start with a data type search, then use sub-search to filter out addresses.
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It is in fact general velocity, showing the speed of whichever direction Link is moving the most in (think of it like a speedometer). Some other values probably keep track of the angle.
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moozooh wrote:
Although your behavior of saying that all projects are on hold until MM is done then immediately submitting yet another short run can be called whimsical at best.
2 days ago I just completed Seasick Climb; that's 20 out of 52 stages done so far, or over 20%ish. I knew it would take a lot of effort to get this next boss fight optimal and entertaining, so I took a mini-break. I got bored, and started a little on this out of curiosity. And ended up finishing it today. And very soon I'll start Migen's Brawl.
And even so, it shouldn't matter, right?
I'm not mad or anything, but... You don't see me sheparding your TAS activities.
I know you want to see MM finished, so I apologize for this 2 day deviance, and shall get back to Mischief Making.
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YautjaElder wrote:
Also remember to always spin before hopping on water with Deku Link, it gives a significant speed boost to your hops, it also gives a lot of extra distance.
I tested and you get a mini boost if just as you are about to leave the lily pad you spin, and the spinning animation happens JUST as you're about to leave the lilypad. In mid air, Deku Link is about to spin but stops and realigns himself forwards, and he gets extra height, distance, and speed when doing this.
Are there maybe some tall obstacles you can get over with Zora and a stored bomb jump (the sun block in stone tower temple comes to mind)?
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nfq wrote:
I don't know much about speedrunning this game, but I also thought it seemed unnecessary to get the sword. I guess it was for the bottle, but isn't there a faster bottle somewhere?
comicalflop, where can I get that memory watch program you used to find the speed values?
Another thing which may be useful which I noticed is that while rolling as a Goron (while you have magic), if you let him get close to the spike stage, then pull back on the analogue for a few frames, then push forward again, he resets the roll without stopping, so he goes back to having a normal roll without rully stopping or without every entering the spike stage.
That actually might be helpful, but the goron spikes stage gives the real speed boost in rolling.
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Link's speed:
00CD2D0A
Type: Byte
As I suspected, Link's sidehopping speed is highest when the sidehop starts (206), then in the middle of the hop it decreases to below backwalking speed, then increases as he starts falling (like if he sidehopped off an edge.) Therefore: in ANY up hill or downhill slope, of any inclination, sidehop instead of backwalk. Also, if the terrain changes from uphill to downhill or vice versa (like the bridge at pirate's fortress) use sidehopping all the way.
Notice the max backwalking speed is 191; I once tricked it into 192, so if you could find the trigger to fool it like that, it might help in a sub pixel way over long distances.
YautjaElder wrote:
Also remember to always spin before hopping on water with Deku Link, it gives a significant speed boost to your hops, it also gives a lot of extra distance.
I've also gotten this to work with sidehopping off of a lilypad (as I mentioned somewhere to you before.) With that speed address, I bet you can find which is the better one to do in each scenario.
Some more notes about movement optimizations:
-rolling shouldn't be used as frequently as you did in the movie. it's speed is 191, same as backwalking, but you have a pause in between each one. It might be handy for a short change of direction (like going around a corner) or to reach a doorway that is close by. If you do roll, and it doesn't end with you going into a doorway or loading point or something, follow it up with a sidehop (for another short distance) or a backwalk.
-See if wall clippings work (ala Mario 4.) Nothing like a good pixel boost.
-Sometimes you can angle yourself into a wall, and you'll be backwalking at the same max speed, then once you reach the edge of the corner, you go around it and backwalk in the angle you were facing. (watch guano's old OoT movie in Jabu Jabu, he does this sometimes in the hallways. I do it in my deku tree WIP.)
-The Deku spin: I'd have to have the x/y pixel addresses, in addition to watching speed to see if spinning or deku backwalk is faster. But like rolling, use spinning if it cancels into something, like off an edge, into a doorway, etc.
-When rolling off ledges, try to get Link's cartwheel-flip- animation, that is fastest. With Zora, there were lots of jumps out of and into water that were not optimal. Try to get either the dive or possibly a sidehop.
A sidehop off a ledge, and onto a nearby ledge (if you can make it) is faster for Link then when you roll off and he does that mega jump. (see my Deku Tree WIP.
-That's all for now, I'll try noodling around when I can to find more.
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Yes, assuming it can be manipulated. I'm betting good money that mathfun and ball are manipulated by what frame you enter, for two reasons:
1) I manipulated 2-01 to get a faster time by entering the stage with 1 frame delay (I did this to cause a red ball to bounce in front of me rather then behind, so that I could get a speed boost off of it.)
2) In real time playing, if you play mathfun/ball over and over again on the same file, the age is not changing but what frame you enter, and the outcomes are always different.
As I mentioned earlier, gln64 0.4.1.1 is not emulating Rolling Rock as it's supposed to (maybe it's my computer, but Halamantariel was also getting this same problem), and no plugin has so far shown the questions. Unfortunately, it seems that many of world 4's stages have the same "dark cave with a flashlight in the middle" effect, so it may be that all of world 4 gets emulated incorrectly. That'd suck.
World 2 done, moving onto to the next.
I have a bit of a dilemma. I finally beat my 1-01 time of 6.35", something Deign and I had been trying to get for a while, and that we deemed impossible, but I finally beat it by 0.02". Even though I'm currently on Missile Surf, I have had this annoying itching sensation at the back of my head ever since I've been working on this that there might be a few stages where it can be slightly faster. Not only does this game have some incredibly random encounters where you can do something much faster (bosses and minibosses come to mind) but there's just always that 1% chance that you missed a frame somewhere or that you can make one spot juuuust slightly faster.
So I kinda want to redo for the 2nd time, even though I'm so far already. Reasons:
-I still feel like I have not searched for the absolute limit for the lowest time a stage can be for every single stage (for most I have.) Some I feel I made too quickly, and kept because it beat Nitsuja's time.
-This site aims for perfection, and I want this run to be as perfect as possible. I do not want to say "list of possible improvements" in the submission page, nor do I want to do a second version.
-I need to get rid of this itchy feeling in the back of my head
-I think I have already found a few places where I know I can save some frames
-I finished world 1 and world 2 in one month. I might not make the 2008 deadline, but it's not too much of a setback.
-I can TAS all stages faster since I know what to do, and can hex in stages I know to be perfect to save time.
I want everyone's thoughts on this matter.
P.S: Moozooh don't kill me :-)
