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Posted: 9/6/2007 1:28 AM
Post subject: eh, removing the chart
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Pressing pause can be beneficial for real time players. I know Veysey used it in 4-02 in Toadly Raw and during the dash events. It really does seem strange that it calculates it 1/60th of a second exact. I know for example that Mario Kart 64 has the timer increase by 0.033" a frame (only 0.03" change is visible), so that in the 30 FPS game after 3 frames 0.10" has gone by (the last visual timer change is 0.04".) I have made 1 frame improvements in MM that have both gained 0.02" on the timer or 0.01"; most of the time 1 frame saved equates to 0.02", but if that was the case then 60 frames would equal 1.2 seconds, which is inaccurate because the game is 60 FPS. So like MK64 it should have the timer increase by 0.01667" each frame, where two of those frames it increases visually by 0.02", and one frame it visually changes by 0.01". Hrmph. I suppose we'll figure it out. Until then, good luck address while hunting while I learn how to Hex-edit, hunt for more strategies and techniques with the other MM speedrunners.
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Posted: 9/21/2007 2:19 AM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Plugin problem. gln64 0.4.1.1 does not seem to do some of the things that it should; the boulder in 4-01 is still invisible, and the stage is graphically worse now, because the middle of the screen is a dark circle and the rest is brighter, creating the opposite affect of how the stage should be. However, the other things that it was supposed to fix works wonderfully; this is especially noticeable in world 2, where indoors everything is so much closer to what it should look like. There's more color to lots of the platforms. Also, the Math Fun questions are not rendering; I don't know if this was supposed to be fixed with this plugin (based on Nitsuja's wordings, it seemed like they would be.) When I eventually get there it'll be tedious using rerecords to figure out the answer to each question, but on an audience viewpoint it'll just look like I'm grabbing randomly at numbered balls (the entertainment of that event is reduced from not being able to see the answers. It adds impressiveness that the TASer gets the right answer, but still.) Is there anyone willing to take a look at the plugin and modify it to be even better? (just needs 4-01 fixed and mathfun to show questions.) (Source). Having the unnatural lag in some stages like 2-03, 2-08, dash events, etc. removed would be nice, but I suspect that to be more of a ROM problem than the plugin. Plugin wise, I am continuing to record using Jabo's 1.6, especially since I encode each stage I complete individually. I have experienced problems encoding with the gnl64 0.4.1.1 (as I mentioned before) but I did more tests getting worse results. I still stand that submitting it with the .m64 having Jabo's, but recommending using the 4.1.1 to watch/encode. 4.1.1 is FULLY synch compatible with Jabo's, so no one should get any desynchs whatsoever; I even had Halamantariel hex to swap the .m64 header to have 4.1.1, and the movie played to the end. Progress wise, I am starting 2-07 Tight Rope Ride, and the trend of improving every stage so far (except 1-10) is still going strong. I have a hunch this trend might start getting harder to hold in world 3, but we shall see. If all goes well, the deadline of "submit before 2008 comes" will be met. I just know that something or other will cause it to take longer, but fingers crossed and hope for the best.
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Posted: 9/21/2007 5:09 PM
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Shadow_Byrn
Joined: 3/16/2006
Posts: 289
Yay! Good to hear that someone is going through with this. It does kinda stink that those two levels won't render right though. I played through this game a while ago on this emulator and had a very wonderful time trying doing those levels. A tip for math fun: save before the question let the Clancer answer it. Now that you know, you can just reload and go!
I am just a silhouette, a silhouette of a memory of a solitary night .. nothing more.
Posted: 9/21/2007 5:18 PM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Ohhhhhh, the Clancer will answer it if I wait too long? Ah, that does save time, I was going to just test every single answer, but that seems much easier. Thanks! What will be a drag is knowing the first possible frame to grab the balls. Also, if altering what frame I enter will affect the questions asked, to try and manipulate as many one digit answers as possible. (is that even doable?)
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Posted: 9/23/2007 4:36 AM
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Shadow_Byrn
Joined: 3/16/2006
Posts: 289
Hmmm..didn't even think about question manipulation. That would be interesting to look into. I guess the "perfect" manipulation would be making all the numbers you need to hit on the bottom row AND be single digit answers. But of course that is assuming it can be manipulated... By the way, is there a video plugin that will show the rock/question text?
I am just a silhouette, a silhouette of a memory of a solitary night .. nothing more.
Posted: 9/23/2007 6:41 PM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Yes, assuming it can be manipulated. I'm betting good money that mathfun and ball are manipulated by what frame you enter, for two reasons: 1) I manipulated 2-01 to get a faster time by entering the stage with 1 frame delay (I did this to cause a red ball to bounce in front of me rather then behind, so that I could get a speed boost off of it.) 2) In real time playing, if you play mathfun/ball over and over again on the same file, the age is not changing but what frame you enter, and the outcomes are always different. As I mentioned earlier, gln64 0.4.1.1 is not emulating Rolling Rock as it's supposed to (maybe it's my computer, but Halamantariel was also getting this same problem), and no plugin has so far shown the questions. Unfortunately, it seems that many of world 4's stages have the same "dark cave with a flashlight in the middle" effect, so it may be that all of world 4 gets emulated incorrectly. That'd suck. World 2 done, moving onto to the next.
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Posted: 10/5/2007 1:36 PM
Post subject: redo? need opinions
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I have a bit of a dilemma. I finally beat my 1-01 time of 6.35", something Deign and I had been trying to get for a while, and that we deemed impossible, but I finally beat it by 0.02". Even though I'm currently on Missile Surf, I have had this annoying itching sensation at the back of my head ever since I've been working on this that there might be a few stages where it can be slightly faster. Not only does this game have some incredibly random encounters where you can do something much faster (bosses and minibosses come to mind) but there's just always that 1% chance that you missed a frame somewhere or that you can make one spot juuuust slightly faster. So I kinda want to redo for the 2nd time, even though I'm so far already. Reasons: -I still feel like I have not searched for the absolute limit for the lowest time a stage can be for every single stage (for most I have.) Some I feel I made too quickly, and kept because it beat Nitsuja's time. -This site aims for perfection, and I want this run to be as perfect as possible. I do not want to say "list of possible improvements" in the submission page, nor do I want to do a second version. -I need to get rid of this itchy feeling in the back of my head -I think I have already found a few places where I know I can save some frames -I finished world 1 and world 2 in one month. I might not make the 2008 deadline, but it's not too much of a setback. -I can TAS all stages faster since I know what to do, and can hex in stages I know to be perfect to save time. I want everyone's thoughts on this matter. P.S: Moozooh don't kill me :-)
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Posted: 10/5/2007 8:45 PM
Post subject: Re: redo? need opinions
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bkDJ
Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215
comicalflop wrote:
I want everyone's thoughts on this matter.
You a 4channer, or do you have other means of obtaining all those macros you like posting? :) Anyway, I'm having flashbacks to your DKC2 TAS which was redone... what, 10 times? Either way, that product came out amazing, so if the effort you put into this is anything similar, then I'm sure any redo will be worth it. Though, shouldn't you check to see if the plugin you're using actually renders more of the game correctly than any other plugin, before getting too far again?
Posted: 10/5/2007 8:46 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Yeah, I'd go for redoing with a more compatible plugin.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 10/6/2007 3:30 AM
(Edited: 10/6/2007 8:36 PM)
Post subject: need plugin gurus
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
bkDJ wrote:
comicalflop wrote:
I want everyone's thoughts on this matter.
You a 4channer, or do you have other means of obtaining all those macros you like posting? :) Anyway, I'm having flashbacks to your DKC2 TAS which was redone... what, 10 times? Either way, that product came out amazing, so if the effort you put into this is anything similar, then I'm sure any redo will be worth it. Though, shouldn't you check to see if the plugin you're using actually renders more of the game correctly than any other plugin, before getting too far again?
Bisqwit wrote:
That way, you can be saved from doing wasted work even if nobody happens to guess your mind like Comicalflop did.
My mind reading should never be in doubt ^^ It was redone 8 times. And even then it still needs one final redo, as it was good when it came out, but became bad in comparison to Arne's. I believe I'm putting far more effort into this; the rerecord count is higher, everything is super-uber-duber optimized, I test out far more things, redo when necessary, and keep using outside-the-box-thinking to come up with new techniques and time savers. I've changed and improved a lot since fall last year. I mentioned before about the plugins... TASing wise, I'll keep going with what I have, all of the plugins as far as I know are fully synch compatible and can be hexed into the .m64 at will. Over the course of the TAS if a superior plugin is found, then it will be used for submission/recommended. It seems that some plugins correctly emulate some parts, but there's no one overarching plugin that covers everything the TAS needs, which is: -world 2's background textures -world 4's lighting effects -mathfun's questions -intro cutscene when Theo is kidnapped -invisible boulder in 4-01 (the TAS doesn't need this actually, since even the speedrun goes too fast before it appears, but it's worth mentioning.) The mixture of plugins available might correctly emulate some, but then incorrectly emulate something else. If anyone wants to noodle around some, feel free. Nitsuja's gln64 0.4.1.1 came closest, so if anyone wants to mess around with the source code please do so. I have little computer skills and messed up my rice plugin the last time I tried screwing around with settings. Redoing was an awesome idea... 1-01, 1-02, 1-04 all saved some frames, and 1-05 is saving major time. And that's just the beginning...
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Posted: 10/6/2007 1:51 PM
Post subject: Re: redo? need opinions
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OmnipotentEntity
He/Him
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2631
bkDJ wrote:
comicalflop wrote:
I want everyone's thoughts on this matter.
You a 4channer, or do you have other means of obtaining all those macros you like posting? :) Anyway, I'm having flashbacks to your DKC2 TAS which was redone... what, 10 times? Either way, that product came out amazing, so if the effort you put into this is anything similar, then I'm sure any redo will be worth it. Though, shouldn't you check to see if the plugin you're using actually renders more of the game correctly than any other plugin, before getting too far again?
You a 4channer, or do you have other means of obtaining all those macros you like posting? :)
You a 4channer,
4channer
Stop breaking rules one and two.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Posted: 10/6/2007 4:36 PM
Post subject: Re: redo? need opinions
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Veysey
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
comicalflop wrote:
I have a bit of a dilemma. I finally beat my 1-01 time of 6.35", something Deign and I had been trying to get for a while, and that we deemed impossible, but I finally beat it by 0.02".
Hmmm, I might have forgot to mention at some point in time... in MM you ca not get times of xx.x1 xx.x4 xx.x6 xx.x9 that whole 60 fps thing :P Anyways, I have a question regarding that... If you were to get to the end of the level and grab the star a little late to get say 6.40"... then grabbed it exactly one frame sooner, do you still get 6.40" or 6.38"? Do you have to shave those 2 frames to get the 0.02" difference? Or does the game simply just ignore those times? I only ask because this information would let you know in advance whether you were looking to improve anything vs at least 0.02"... As for redoing it, I think anything with a better end product is always nicer plus if you do it again, there is always the chance you'll reveal something you missed your first time through
Posted: 10/6/2007 5:38 PM
Post subject: Re: redo? need opinions
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Halamantariel
Player (105)
Joined: 1/30/2005
Posts: 564
Location: Québec, Canada
Veysey wrote:
Anyways, I have a question regarding that... If you were to get to the end of the level and grab the star a little late to get say 6.40"... then grabbed it exactly one frame sooner, do you still get 6.40" or 6.38"? Do you have to shave those 2 frames to get the 0.02" difference? Or does the game simply just ignore those times?
In this game, 3 frames = 0.05 seconds. That means that for every 3 frames, 2 of them are 0.02s and the other one is 0.01s.
Posted: 10/8/2007 3:03 AM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Halamantariel is correct. Also, IF a stage can be improved by at least 1 frame (1 input frame), that will be in-game time saved, unless you possibly reduce the lag in doing so and the timer ends up longer anyways (only happened to me once on 1-03.) Also, zdude255, can you use your awesome magical powers and help me find some HP values for the bosses and mini bosses of this game? (I suspect knowing all of the HP addresses will help me in these most random of fights. How perfect this movie becomes heavily depends on this I suspect.) -Wormin' up (not needed, since we know OHKO to exist) -The gun clancer in Western World -Flambee -Migen Jr. (I think I have this one, but it's not consisten damage wise) -Clance War (is there an overarching HP address for all of these robot type mini bosses?) -Go Marzen 64 -Chilly Dog -Lunar -Cerebus Alpha -Toadly Raw -The 7 clancer kids -Clarina -Tarus (not needed) -Moley Cow -Sasquatch Beta -Clance War II -Counterattack (not needed?) -Merco -Trapped -Phoenix Gamma -Inner Struggle -Final Fight If you can find (any of) these, that'd be totally awesome.
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Posted: 10/8/2007 5:43 AM
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zdude255
Joined: 6/26/2007
Posts: 147
IIRC there was a modified plugin specifically for Mischief Makers, or does it still have those problems? Have you tried Rice? Also, don't stress TOOOO much about frame counts. Ultimately to a human viewer, 3 frames can't even be noticed. Perfection is a good thing to shoot for, but I'd also like to see a run published within 3 years. ;-) I'll try searching for some HP values when I get a chance. I have a ton of work atm, but I get a break after Wednesday. Which of those are most important for now? There's also the issue of if the HP locations depend on the run, but we'll deal with that if it comes up.
Posted: 10/8/2007 10:47 AM
(Edited: 10/9/2007 1:43 PM)
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
The modified plugin still has problems (it even added one of its own, though it wasn't supposed to) so I'm still working on that. The general idea is that I'll keep TASing with jabo's for now, and along the way or prior to submission the right plugin/settings will be found, and those will be hexed in/used in the sub text. I actually should be stressing about frame counts; more accurately about reducing the time for each stage, since this game is played competitively to get the lowest S-Ranks as possible. The MM speedrunners will see a 3 frame difference, and untrained eyes might not notice, but myself and the speedrunners will know if a certain stage's time can be faster; and viewers will see lower times far shorter than the previous TAS WIP or compared to the WRs; and I'll be able to confidently say that most of the stages have been lowered to the absolute limit. Also, I've gotten so good with the game that I can procure improvements in my head, as well as figure out what the theoretical limits to some stages are. And lastly, I want this run to be absolutely perfect, and while I've redone this twice now, this 3rd version is doing incredibly well. As for the bosses, the most important are: -Migen jr. -Go Marzen 64 -Chilly Dog -Lunar -Cerebus Alpha -Toadly Raw -Moley Cow -Sasquatch Beta -Merco -Phoenix Gamma -Final Fight The rest are either easy 1 hit KO's or require a certain number of hits that I can easily memorize. But these specific fights either have varying ways to receive different amounts of damage, or a different technique might be faster that could be found with HP watching. Big thanks in advance if you do find any of these.
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Posted: 10/9/2007 3:45 AM
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Shadow_Byrn
Joined: 3/16/2006
Posts: 289
This has nothing to do with the Run, but I remember when fighting Cerebus Alpha that during his 1st phase, when you're in front of him, right before he jumps over you he fires his big super beam. You can catch it and then hit him with it, and he'll do it again. Repeat till tired. Never seemed to speed up the other parts, though.
I am just a silhouette, a silhouette of a memory of a solitary night .. nothing more.
Posted: 10/9/2007 1:45 PM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
That's certainly a strat to think about and test. You can catch and drop those laser balls very fast, so if what you say is true, you can get on top and catch/drop until he's dead and this would beat the WR. How do you make Lunar keep doing the laser blast though? I thought he did a certain number of blasts, then went back to firing missiles like in Nitsuja's WIP.
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Posted: 10/9/2007 9:51 PM
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Shadow_Byrn
Joined: 3/16/2006
Posts: 289
Ah. He ONLY did this for me right before he switches sides with you for the 1st time. He would go BIG laser, then jump. But if I caught the whole thing, then hit him with it, he would keep on shooting. Only when I didn't return it would he move on. You are right, normally when he does this during the fight he will just move on with the missles. I actually don't recall very well if anything after that was shorter. If I can find the time I'll see about making a movie or something, but don't count on it! oo! I found a movie! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwgqjI_ZhM0 The player isn't exactly the best and it doesn't show what I'm talking about but it will at least help you understand the moment I'm talking about. At about 1:05, the player hits him with a missle, and the beam is firing. It's this moment right here that if you catch the beam and then hit him with it, he'll fire it again. Catch again, hit again. Repeat till tired.
I am just a silhouette, a silhouette of a memory of a solitary night .. nothing more.
Posted: 10/10/2007 4:40 PM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I talked with Reik and he believes this strat was already tested to be slower. Good creative thinking though. Almost at world 2 now... shouldn't be too long hopefully before I'm back where I was, except with faster times for most of the stages.
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Posted: 10/11/2007 1:55 AM
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Shadow_Byrn
Joined: 3/16/2006
Posts: 289
Yeah, like I said it probably would take longer. I remember hitting him like 10 times and he still took the same amount of punishment later. Soooo...are you just going to taunt us by telling us your progress or are you gonna be nice and WIP us?
I am just a silhouette, a silhouette of a memory of a solitary night .. nothing more.
Posted: 10/11/2007 2:07 AM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I'm going to be a meanie-poo and not show anything until submission, as I promised. You'll love the surprise factor, trust me. Sorry if that's not the answer you wanted. BUT. I am 35 in-game frames ahead currently at 1-10. So redoing was not a wasted effort, I improved 5 stages, some by significant amounts (if you count 0.37 hundredths of a second significant.*) Plus, I have ideas for more time saved in world 2. And I constantly watch the vids of future levels and think of improvements.
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Posted: 10/11/2007 9:08 AM
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Kitsune
Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212
I always wanted to see a TAS for this game. I remember beating this as a child. Was a hell of a lot of fun too. :3 This is a definate favorite. :3
Posted: 10/12/2007 8:58 AM
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zdude255
Joined: 6/26/2007
Posts: 147
Migen Sr. HP 009E2792 Unsigned Short Yeah, it counts down from 3 to 0, not that interesting Migen Jr. Related? 00A305C7 Byte This changes whenever he's hit. I couldn't find a traditional HP value, so this is what I found after looking a bunch. Chilly Dog 009DDB12 Unsigned Short Starts with 500 HP, counts down to 0 LUNAR!! 009DD7E2 Unsigned Short Starts at 150, goes to 0 Cerebus Alpha 009E6F4A Unsigned Short This jumps around a bit between forms, but it lasts for the whole fight. Could you post a saved game with all levels accessible? I don't have anything past world 3 atm.
Posted: 10/12/2007 12:55 PM
(Edited: 10/12/2007 5:15 PM)
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (735)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I actually don't have any savestates past world 3 myself, but I'll try. I'm not incredibly good with the game (I've only in real time playing gotten up to the day of events), but I'll give it a shot. I kid you not, that Migen jr. address is the exact same one I found before I started the fight. It seems to be a value that changes the exact frame that he is hit, but it does not conform to a HP number that Migen has. However, he's one of the bosses where HP watching is not needed that much, he always has 6 rounds of catchable punches after Migen sr. is defeated. (I just need to find how to shorten the amount of time spent between each catchable punch. What I originally had is 3+ seconds faster than Nitsuja's fight, but I have that itchy feeling it might be able to go lower still.) But Chilly Dog, Lunar, Cerebus Alpha; good finds there, that'll be mighty helpful.
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