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Phallosvogel wrote:
He did, right now he does quite nothing.
Guano is currently in Spirit Temple, at least last time I checked up with him which was not long ago. And guess what? Testing things and making it incredibly precise takes time and effort.
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Hey, I was just reading the submission text and got confused. One of the massive improvements in the run came from preserving the boost speed from only touching the ground for one frame and bunny hopping through levels... is that already in there (and thus difficult to understand since I couldn't see it) or does it need adding in?
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There's a mupen that "shouldn't" desynch when playing back movies, but I don't think there's quite the "doesn't desynch when TASing" mupen yet.
I'm also all for another version to be done later. A better synching mupen, better memory watching, increased precision (especially those parts where I keep saying "sidehop up and down hills") would all add nicely to a v2.
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Hero, you should do the 100% with the plethora of tricks you've been finding, which all add up to the amount of improvement that's already to be had. You just showed like 6 different strategies in the last 2 pages, and I bet your knack of constantly finding new and good stuff would suit the run.
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I can't think of any, especially since I don't know of any tricks or parts of the game that are speeded up by dying, let alone dying twice. I'm guessing just novelty and weirdness for now.
It's been a little while since we had the categories debate and it seems that the rate of you discovering tricks is declining (not to undershadow this one or criticize you for not finding anything substantial) but have you considered how you're going to go about with categories (like will yours use DMD and everything to kill ganon as fast as possible, and just keep EG, any%, and 100% as the three categories where any% uses every glitch besides EG) and if you will stop trick hunting and start TASing?
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Thanks to L-Spiro's Tool, I believe this is the first N64 submission with full memory watching use? It really shows.
This was faster, better, more entertaining, and had more chutzpah. This gets my yes vote for sure. Shazam!
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DaShiznawz wrote:
3. How do you skip the first owl with a deku stick?
You have both the deku stick and the slingshot out on C buttons. Press the c button for the deku stick and backwalk when holding it out. after 18 frames, press the c button for the slingshot, and keep backwalking. after 6 frames, press the c button for the deku stick again. Keep going back and forth.
I forget exactly if it's 18/6 frames of wait (I think it is) but basically what you're doing is on the first possible frame pulling out the other item, so that you're in a constant state of pulling out the items. You'll know you did it right if one frame later after you pressed one of the buttons the owl text appears.
In the .m64 that Guano/me had, I did the owl skip part.... I think I should link it so that there is a good sense of how to do that trick, and also what the bar if optimization is (barring in mind we know of exactly one spot in the deku tree that could be improved, which is to roll past one of the skulltulas instead of jumpslashing.)
here ya go
Now, onto the run. I haven't found the time to watch it yet, so I will not be voting, but here's what I've surmised from what I've read.
40 minutes saved is coolio, non-precision not so much.
I would probably vote meh if I had watched the entire thing. I was higly entertained from the very first one, having not known what 100% OoT precision looked like; the game was being pwn-snaked in my virgin eyes. If this was the first submission for the game, I'd probably cream my pants as much as I did the published one last summer.
However, being one of the peeps that was TASing this game, I know so much better about the standards of what is optimal in this game and what viewers want to see technical wise. I would probably wince every now and then if I watched it, despite liking the game very much and having the patience to watch many runs of it over and over and going through the cutscenes. (I had to to make synch checks.)
I don't think this should be published. I applaud the final product, but a better one is in the works and while the first one was published partly because it was in demand, now the demand is for a tightly optimized run.
If I had more time I could address a lot of the other issues that have been brought up in this thread (a lot I want to address but poo-poo for business), but for now, I would most likely vote meh and this should not be published.
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Adelikat, you cheating Cheaty Mc-Cheaty-Cheat. :-D
Awesome stuff, it was incredibly noticeable where you're saving time and it's more entertaining to boot. Can't wait for you to finish this one.
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Ok, so TAS wise you really should be BGing all the time, and slide jumping should be used as infrequently as possible (except when needed for obvious reasons.) This I deducted from memory watching. Perfectly timed BG's preserve the fastest possible SJ speed as long as you can go, and SJ's have exactly one frame where you are slightly slower than your fastest BG maintaining speed. So, in order to maximize sub-pixels (which I will be doing), and to hopefully attain 0.01" on the in-game timer after a distance, I probably will be BGing all the time. Of course, the one frame slightly-slower speed will probably not make any difference at all across short distances, but one can never be too sure (or I can test and leave in what doesn't lose any time. BGing can be boring.) The difference is not noticeable enough for normal speedrunning.... so you can Slide Jump to your heart's content.
Achieving max BG speed can happen as soon as you want. Once you do a slide jump, you'll be flying in the air at a speed of X, and assuming you do 100% perfectly timed BG's, X will not change.
I imagine that the number of secrets left in this game is really starting to decline... But there is one biggie left, and that is the other method of squeezing through walls that you told me about Veysey, by grabbing projectiles... do you know if you have a video example of this, or know of a "sweet spot" like in 4-01 where it can be done consistently, so I can do some research on it and figure it out?
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Flip wrote:
How far back did you restart from? The earliest improvement I can think of is inside of the deku tree, getting a little boost off one of the skullwalltulas instead of climbing all the way round the vines.
From the very beginning, compared to the old WIP. Way back when I did the Kokiri Forest more optimally and saved 6 seconds at the moment of entering the deku tree. I then got all the way to the slingshot, and Guano took over from there. From that point to where he's at now, nothing was my work except the owl skip, and will likely remain that way since I can't afford to actively TAS this.
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Yeah that seems logical.
I also remember you mentioning that all of those times were achieved with almost perfect boost grabbing (not TAS frame perfect but slowdown achieved goodness), not going at all faster than normal slide jump speed, so that the theoretical limit was almost reached.
Sub-pixel perfection really makes a difference in this game, making an in-game timer goal the best choice... somewhere in between 1-01 and 1-02 my 19 frame gain became 17 due to game randomness, but I still had gained 0.01" on the timer at the halfway star (I still need to redo that segment again anyway because of a slight sub-pixel error I made in slide boost jumping vs. boost grabbing. 307200 does not equal 327200 >_< So maybe I can squeeze in another 0.01 hopefully.)
In the end this means that most of the levels will be improved by a minuscule amount, which hopefully is what viewers want to see; but with luck major time can be saved in some stages more than the already known ones.
Nitsuja: Is the current TAS Input Plugin's combo feature working correctly? Those boost grabs, especially in testing over large distances for the perfect angle and approach, can be quite tedious.
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I can't wait to find some time to watch this. Will most likely get my yes vote as soon as I do.
edit: tooketh me a while, but jah you get that yes vote.
"Spider-Bond, Spider-Bond, does whatever a Spider-Bond does... can he sling, from web? No he can't, he's just Bond, look out... here comes the Spider-Bond..."
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the "no desynching whan TASing the game" part is kind of what I wanted to be fixed more for N64 TASers than the actual watching .m64's part....
But a work in progress is a work in progress I guess, good work.
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I'd not say inherently... more like most of the submissions are incredibly bad quality of playing that makes babies cry, one good run was canceled and redone, which was rejected more because of a fight between the author and a judge than for anything else, and mine was rejected after a huge debate, which was really close.
There are only really two good submissions that have a chance I suppose, if antd finally submits his 1p which is faster than nico's and makes more interesting/entertaining choices on some levels, and like Zurreco/Baxter have requested one that does BtT/BtP modes.
Until then, it's cursed because of poor submissions.
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Hot pot of coffee!
I so can't wait to see this when I get back home tonight.
Excellent that you're watching RAM and stuff for boss hp values and such... I forget if you had mentioned if you were doing this all along, but I just recently got mem watching to work for N64 games and I'm just overall pscyhed about that and this new WIP and how close it is to being done.
At camp last week one of our admin team members talked about a phrase"smelling the barn"... nobody quite got the reference, but it has something to do with thinking about being at the destination before you are there or something. Well, I am definitely smelling the barn now :-p
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At the end of the 4th room, you are 18 frames behind shinryuu (which is where his WIP ended.) Lemme PM you his .smv, if that's alright with you shinny :-P
