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Mothrayas wrote:
Regarding PAL runs currently on the queue (assuming NTSC is valid), it's up to the author if they want to cancel the submission and redo on NTSC, or let the PAL run be accepted for now and obsoleted with NTSC later.
PAL/NTSC info for the current queued C64 runs:
C64 Jungle Hunt in 02:28 -- faster NTSC run similar to current published PAL run
C64 Diamond Mine "2 player, 100%" in 17:51 -- This is PAL. Accept/reject as is for now, I'll look at obsoleting via NTSC later.
C64 Double Dragon "OCEAN Port" in 12:53 -- This is a PAL release of the game (graphical glitches in NTSC) accept/reject as is.
C64 Congo Bongo in 00:29 -- faster NTSC run similar to current published PAL run
C64 Frogger "Parker Brothers Port" in 04:12 -- I canceled the original submission that was made in PAL mode. I then tweaked the run in NTSC and uncanceled requesting in the author's comments that the submission .bk2 be updated to the faster NTSC version i uploaded to WIPs (link in comments).
Thanks to all of you for the discussion...it will help with TASing C64 in the future.
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Not sure if there's someone specific I should suggest this to, but I assume if there is, someone here will tell me.
I have a thought/suggestion for future BizHawk versions regarding utilizing fastloaders.
I have extremely little coding experience/understanding, so I have no idea how difficult the following suggestion would be (if it's even possible). But here goes...
Could a section be added in the C64 firmware settings for a fastloader cartridge rom?
If it is loaded in as part of the firmware, couldn't other games/disk images then be opened just as they are now, while still benefiting from the faster loading times resulting from of the fastloader cartridge?
Again, I have no idea if this is even possible in an emulated environment.
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Mothrayas wrote:
Of course, then it might be complicated what to do with obscure media that release info can't be tracked down for. Maybe allow NTSC anyway in such cases? I don't think there's any better option there.
If it is impossible to determine the release information for a particular rom, and there are no noticeable differences in gameplay (other than music/sound pitches and speed); wouldn't it be acceptable to consider either setting option as valid and select whichever results in a faster play-through for that particular rom?
The other option that needs to be considered by the site managers, would be to not allow any runs for publication unless the release region information can be confirmed for a particular rom file....And yes, I realize if this decision was made, it would negate most of the submissions and the few publications I have in the C64 section of the site.
Enacting this policy, however, may also deter people from TASing for the C64 in the future.
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c-square wrote:
Looks well optimized, voted meh for entertainment. Using the glitch to get multiple boulder scores would definitely help on the entertainment front.
I considered doing more glitches, but I didn't think more uses of the glitch would add enough entertainment value to bump this video up a tier to moons (assuming it obsoletes the current run). Perhaps I'm wrong on that. Oh well.
There are actually a couple other movement glitches that I could find no benefit for (at least not yet):
In the boulder section another one makes it appear as though you are in the canopy for a very brief moment, it may help land jumps faster, but i'd have to investigate this more. Even if it does, it's just a visual thing...it doesn't speed up the game.
In the last stage (Saving the girl), there are two similar momentary canopy glitches. One always seems results in instant death. The other usually does, but if performed in the right spot, you can survive and move slightly to the right. Neither is beneficial for this very short stage. As far as I can tell, doing either of these for entertainment/demonstration reasons, would only add to the length of the run.
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mklip2001 wrote:
Using a bot would be an interesting thing to try in the future, but it's certainly not a requirement at the moment.
I'm sure I'd appreciate the ability to use bots to figure things like this out, but I don't know anything about programming bots ...or even where to begin learning to doing so. I don't have very much programming knowledge; just enough to recognize some basic things.
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For anyone who cares, this version of the game is PAL format. Switching to NTSC settings in BizHawk results in graphical glitches.
That's one less game to completely redo...at least until feos finds something else I can majorly improve in the run.
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Un-Cancelling. Changing settings from PAL to NTSC resulted in a significantly faster video with minimal input changes to re-sync. See updated submission notes for more details.
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Alyosha wrote:
C64 core in BizHawk defaults to PAL video mode. Also, I believe many of the readily available ROMs are also PAL.
@DrD2k9: I would strongly recommend that you research the ROM you are using before trying to change the emulation settings. C64 appears to be quite a bit messier in terms of ROM cataloging then other systems. Also, check other sources to see if the game sounds correct and seems to be playing at the correct speed, as these are often obvious signs of using the wrong region.
Using PAL isn't necessarily wrong, and NTSC is not necessarily faster.
Thank you for the info.
As it stands, I've become rather discouraged regarding the C64 and TASing. As much nostalgia as this system holds for me, and as much as I feel it deserves its place on the site for history's sake (even if that means just in the vault), I am struggling to find enjoyment in doing the C64 TASes compared to other systems.
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SmashManiac wrote:
Isn't it possible to avoid waiting for the last barrel through RNG manipulation here?
I cannot deduce the RNG well enough to manipulate it.
I can't figure out anything regarding the barrels or conveyors.
I believe the spawn point and movement of fireball enemies is impacted to some degree by your position on the screen, but subtle movements don't seem to have much impact.
I can't get breakpoints to work in the debugger. So attempting to reverse engineer the RNG is currently not an option. This leaves trial & error as the only option (at least for me--someone else may have other ideas/skills that I'm not aware of).
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adelikat wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
Cancelling--I need to check PAL/NTSC settings.
There are no PAL/NTSC settings...
Please don't cancel for that.
Under the C64>Settings menu there is a tab for Sync settings where PAL/NTSC can be changed. PAL was set as default on my BizHawk.
Unfortunately I can't just switch it on the .tasproj files i've already made, but will have to manually redo one of my C64 games in the other setting to see if it makes a difference.
This submission being short, I can at least check to see if there's much difference using it for comparison.
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SmashManiac wrote:
Voting No for bad port and lots of waiting.
Also, I'm concerned that you're not sure about the fill order. A bot should be able to easily test all 120 combinations per round.
Forgive my ignorance, but I don't have the knowledge/skills to use bots to TAS my games for me.
Spikestuff wrote:
Comparison to the Sierra Version which is more of an interesting and upbeat version.
I know the Sierra version is better (it's the version I had as a kid). I was planning on doing both versions at some point.
I don't expect many C64 games to have Moon-level entertainment value, but I do feel that they should have their place in the vault for history's sake.
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Due to the concerns of this run being incomplete due to not finishing the level loop, I'm going to cancel this submission. I will likely revisit this game in the future (even if it isn't the most entertaining watch).
Unfortunately many C64 games aren't very exciting to watch, but I feel that the system still deserves some TAS runs even if they are only vault worthy. The C64 is part of video gaming history and deserves it's space on this site if only for history's sake.
As far as the PAL vs. NTSC situation. I didn't realize my BizHawk settings were for PAL instead of NTSC.
That being the case, I'm going to have to revisit all of my Commodore 64 submissions as they've all been done with default settings...which means that they are all likely in PAL and may be faster if converted to NTSC.
Ugh. Now I have a ton of unexpected work to do.
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feos wrote:
And I'm not even sure my strat is fully optimal.
In working through this game using your strat of luring Abobo further to the left before attacking, I discovered a glitch. It's possible to control Abobo's flight with controller inputs from the 13th through 26th frames after the attack button press. This allows you to position Abobo close by for the next attack almost immediately as soon as he stands up.
It will save over 600 frames per Abobo fight if it works for all of them.
Unfortunately this doesn't work for all the regular enemies.
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TASVideoAgent wrote:
Fog</a>: After further deliberating with other judges, this cannot be accepted for the following reasons: <p>1) The goal choice is not quite clear. <p>The best possible goal choice that this run might be aiming for is maximum score. However, we do not know the highest possible score in this game with absolute certainty. If this game is aiming for fastest time, then taking scratches in all non-timed based events would be faster than actually completing the event. <p>2) The run is not entertaining enough for Moons tier. <p>Because the run's entertainment value is near-zero, this is automatically judged under Vault rules. This makes the rules much stricter in terms of goal choices. <p>3) The run does not match with Vault rules. <p>If comparing to the goal choices mentioned above, it does not neatly follow in line with what we allow in Vault. Vault requires either the fastest completion time, or the absolute maximum score possible (and proven to be such). Anything else is not allowed. <p>With everything above, this run must be rejected. </div></div></blockquote>
I guess I'm still new enough at this hobby that I sometimes struggle to differentiate human goal vs. TAS goal.
Thank you all for your input/thoughts/criticisms. I appreciate the scrutiny when it's offered with an explanation. It will only help me improve for the future.
I only wish I could guarantee that I won't make these kind of errors-in-judgement again. Hopefully they'll at least be less often.
Whoa...I didn't even think of drawing him into the room more.
Its weird how we sometimes don't even realize we're not trying all possibilities.
There are multiple Abobo fights where your strategy could be applied. If it saves that many frames each time, it will significantly shorten the submission.
It will take some time to re-work. I suggest a delayed decision. Or I could just cancel this submission. Or you could reject it. Any of those will suffice.
