In the interest of having this knowledge in a public place, there's a theoretical new TAS route for Ages involving a pretty awesome japanese-exclusive glitch. I discovered this back in March and was thinking of making at least a LOTAD for it, but never got around to it, so I'll at least post it here so it's known about.
After you get the bombs from Queen Ambi, there is one frame where you can move. In the japanese version ONLY, it is possible to use the harp during that one frame. (In other versions you can use other items, but not the harp.)
Normally you would only have the Tune of Echoes at this point, so playing the harp would do nothing. However, a TAS can skip the queen ambi cutscene entirely, meaning you can return later - in other words, you can return when you have the Tune of Currents.
This would seem meaningless by itself - playing the Tune of Currents in Ambi's Palace merely sends you to Nuun Highlands, an area which you would already have access to. However, it ALSO creates a "return portal". By re-entering this "return portal", you can access ambi's palace before beating dungeon 6 and get the Tune of Ages early!
Specifically, the steps you would take are as follows:
- Initially skip the Ambi's Palace cutscene by using toilet warp + pitwalking to get bombs from a chest
- Play normally until you get the Tune of Currents
- Trigger the Ambi's Palace cutscene
- Warp into the present during the cutscene as you get bombs
- Savewarp back to the past
- Enter the cutscene again and complete it normally (necessary because it didn't fully play out the first time)
- Go to nuun highlands and use the return portal to get into Ambi's Palace with full control (must use Tune of Echoes otherwise the return portal will disappear)
Nitroz has also created a candidate route using this trick, I haven't reviewed it myself but I'll leave it here:
https://pastebin.com/JGj6U9qP
I've just found that it's also possible to skip the boomerang. In the setup shown in my video, the boomerang is required for 2 roosters, and is also used outside onox's castle, so not having the boomerang gives a deficit of 3 objects. Here's how that can be fixed:
* Pick up and throw the sign on top of d4, using that to replace the boomerang clink. Then dig twice and have the season blurb on-screen as normal. The timing for this is tight since the season blurb barely stays on-screen long enough.
* On the screen with Moosh, dig twice instead of once. This isn't as difficult.
* Use the trick I showed in the video to get one extra rooster from the moosh area.
All in all, this probably saves around 20 seconds at most. The boomerang only takes a minute to get, and this makes the setup longer. It's obviously worth it for a TAS, but it's rather questionable for an RTA run, since it makes the setup a lot harder.
Awesome to see this finished, I hope it's accepted. I do see many places that could be improved, I'll come up with a list or something at some point, but of course scopr acknowledged it's not entirely optimal. These improvements consist mostly of movement optimizations and stuff like that, the route itself seems fine aside from getting the expert's ring. Just as Tompa said, nothing too major.
I wouldn't encourage you to use the whimsical ring later on, mostly for your sanity's sake, but that's your call. The timesaves aren't reliable since you never know what RNG you'll actually be able to get.
Afraid not. I'm still doing stuff with this game just... not actual TASing. It's been on the backburner for a pretty ridiculous amount of time, I know.
Things like slayed enemies, etc. don't carry over between games. Most of the enemy farming is done in seasons at tarm ruins.
When you do the veran warp you get the save and quit prompt you'd normally receive after finishing an unlinked game. This causes npc's from the end of an unlinked game to appear, even on a linked file. Hence, a "hybrid" game. We need to use a link cable to continue to the next seasons playthrough, though. Idk how a tas would handle that unless we somehow "cheat" to see the password, because farore won't show it to us for whatever reason... :P
I'm guessing this is all theoretical though, since we're having enough trouble finishing ages any% :P
You can't do 100% in only 1 game, unless you use premade secrets, which would be kind of lame. Here's my 100% route for reference. Normally it would require 4 playthroughs in total, but the veran warp glitch kind of lets you skip one playthrough.
http://pastebin.com/FW50SGuq
As for the any% TAS, I haven't been working on it for a while. Scorpianman has decided to give it a try, though he's said he's not sure if he'll have time to finish it.
Been a while since the last update. I think I burned myself out a few months ago, but I'm going to give it another shot now. Partly the problem was that I kept "resetting". In fact I've restarted for a 3rd time for 2 reasons: firstly bizhawk 1.8 has non-messed-up frame timing. Secondly a new trick was found with veran warp which lets us skip some of veran's textboxes, but in order to set it up, I must let the seed satchel fall on the left side of the screen when I talk to the maku tree.
I'm up to the end of the maku path now. It's going relatively quickly since I'm using the same rng seeds so far. I think I'll post a "WIP 1.5" once I'm done the first dungeon. Though it'll probably be almost the same as what you've seen already :P
Text warping doesn't work that way, it's not like screenwarping in link's awakening. It has no affect on normal screen transitions, as far as I'm aware - it's only for building exits.
"GBA" please :)
Since getting the pegasus seeds I've been more conscious of this, since subpixels affect all movement, you can actually overshoot the pixel you want sometimes.
I've been doing corner boosts by walking directly into NPC's at the corner, it moves me 1 unit in both directions without affecting subpixels. I think I got a "double" boost on one of the workers that was moving towards me. Is it better to walk diagonally into them?
In the beginning I wasn't quite warmed up to the idea of damage boosts, I guess. By the time I thought of doing that for the crow, I would have had to rework the RNG at the start of the dungeon to make it work :(
I wasn't really interested in killing that like-like, but it did allow me to get that dance pattern, which was worth it. It was tricky because I had to manipulate the dance right after manipulating the like-like...
I somehow hadn't thought of killing the shrouded stalfos with a bomb. But, they don't count as kills if they fall into the holes. It doesn't seem realistic to get all 3.
I noticed that after rewatching it yesterday :(
Hmm. I believe I lost a few frames because of the direction he moved in, but I noticed that you did 2 slashes and a spin attack, while I did slash spin-attack slash. I'm not sure if that matters, I didn't experiment with that.
Good to know.
Thanks a lot for this :)
Looks like I have my work cut out for me :P
I'd watched swordless's TAS, but somehow I couldn't figure out how that would be faster. Turns out I wasn't standing close enough to the torch. Ah well... maybe I could splice it in, but that hasn't gone so well for me in the past.
How is it that I could've killed the gels faster?
I have a new WIP up to the start of dungeon 2. I hope I didn't make too many mistakes :P don't be afraid to criticize though.
Like I said I redid it from scratch, unfortunately I didn't save as much time as I'd hoped (22 frames entering d1), but I'll take it. I managed to kill 29 enemies between planting the 2nd seed and finishing d1, and that number went up to 35 by the time I entered d2. That leaves 5 enemies to kill in dungeon 2, easy.
I opted to not get the whimsical ring. If I was doing all the dungeons I'd probably get either that or the power ring L2 from the advance shop. As it is, it would have to save some time in D6 to be really worth it, which I'm not confident that it will (because of the extra trip to the ring shop).
Oh and Pokota, if you kindly decide to encode this one, please use the GBA palettes :P
Well, this explains a thing or 2. I could not understand why, randomly, my inputs were sometimes delayed by one frame after certain screen transitions or menuing (both of which disable the LCD temporarily). When this happens, it also tends to break some of my scripts which do certain inputs for me (mostly text mashing).
I can work around this, but I would probably revert to bizhawk 1.6 for my next TASing project.
So, here's something interesting. I managed to recreate the Veran Warp glitch in the japanese version of Ages, in real time, using a weaker form of sockfolder's arbitrary code setup. It's kinda ridiculous for RTA, though. Here's the highlight.
I don't know how to call the credits directly, and I might not have been able to anyway, since I could only run a very small amount of code. Veran Warp was just a matter of overwriting 2 bytes. In any case, I'm going to stick with the US version, since I don't want to run the risk of having a full minute of staring at the map screen in the TAS...
I found a (pretty much) TAS-only trick when I was running this game. When you're falling down to the final boss room, if you pause the game one frame before nightmare's textbox appears, something will happen.
99% of the time, the game softlocks. Of course, that's what happened to me :( but rarely, the game just continues without showing nightmare's textbox. So that can shave off several seconds from the any% TAS. As far as I know it's RNG whether this happens.
edit: oh, well it looks like it doesn't appear anyway in any%, for some reason. Nevermind I guess :P
That's pretty much what my test run did, correct? Aside from the whimsical ring. It's not likely to be worth it. We'd have to bump into maple, and add a second trip to the ring shop, just so we can... 3 cycle the d2 miniboss? idk what else you'd use it for.
Edit: technically I guess we could buy it from the advance shop. It could save time with the d6 bosses, which would require a separate trip than if it were used in dungeon 2. Still not sure if it's worth it.
I should've watched your WIP earlier, bizhawk 1.4 is just really slow on my laptop.
Well, come to think of it, there's another disadvantage to getting that 2nd rupee, which is that I can't equip my satchel during the transition from leaving the maku tree screen. It saves half a second because of the way palette transitions work. I see you didn't do that in your old WIP, it's like nobody knows about that trick :/
Alright well, I think tokay will be a pain, but I'll cut out that 2nd rupee. I'll try to incorporate those optimizations also.
Here's a WIP up to the start of d1. I'm not doing d1 yet since I need to plan my kills, but feedback would be nice, so I'm sharing it now. Technically, yoll graveyard isn't "final", as I'll probably edit in some slashes to get the RNG I want in the dungeon.
I managed to get 2 big blue rupees before unequipping the shovel, one of which was spent right away. I still need 1 more. Unfortunately maku path isn't quite as optimal as it could have been, but I think it's worth it, since I'll probably save an equip later on.
Btw, the d1 miniboss will be great for farming kills, as it looks like it will be necessary to an extent.
Oh, and I'd recommend changing the palette settings so it doesn't look washed out from being in GBA mode.
It may be slightly faster to pitwalk in the gasha seed room, I just haven't tried it.
We need to get 2 rings, because the first ring you get is always bad. You can't get a tier 4 ring from your first gasha tree.
It's simple to convert if you understand memory domains. In fact, if you set bizhawk to use the "System Bus" under "Memory Domains", the addresses will match. Though I'd recommend using the WRAM memory domain when dealing with memory in the Cxxx-Dxxx region. Simply subtract C000 from your VBA address to convert it to a WRAM-domain Bizhawk address.
Use ram watch on link's coordinates, at 0x100D and 0x100B. Also 0x100C and 0x100A for x and y subpixels. Helped me a lot :)
Though, sometimes, there's a frame of lag before a directional button updates his coordinates, which makes pitwalking more confusing. Pausing and unpausing gets rid of the lag, but idk what causes it... it might have something to do with going through time.
Anyway, I've finished my little route test. It's not optimized of course, though I did try to be optimal in the very beginning, while learning the ropes. It clocks at 1 hour 33 minutes.
Some notes about it:
- I didn't use GBA mode for the gasha seed in the advance shop, which I'll do for the real thing.
- I forgot to visit the ember tree in Lynna! Well, this is what tests are for. I'm supposed to use it to get to ambi's palace. Surprisingly though, it's only several seconds slower to swim there. I'll need to time how long it takes to visit the tree.
- I will, of course, use "A" as the filename in the real thing.
- Exactly 2048 rerecords :O
Also, the veran warp behaved differently than it would in an RTA run. The main difference was the sprites. The "old man" sprite replaced the cursor, I don't think I've ever seen that in an RTA run... and also the portal sprite was corrupted in a different way than usual. It still works, I just find it interesting.
Yep, the respawning bushes in d3 are bugged. They always have a chance of dropping scent seeds, even if you never got them from the tree. So we can use them in d6 and for the guard skip in ambi's palace.
The trading sequence is just too long... I can't imagine the noble sword would make up the time it takes to get it. In particular, getting the tasty meat will waste a ton of time, due to the expert's ring skip.
The green ring really isn't viable without password abuse... there are only 2 gasha spots which can give it to you, neither of which are convenient in the slightest... one of which is only accessible in a linked game... I can't imagine it would save all that much time, either. We already have the expert's ring, which does a spin-attack's worth of damage, useful for certain bosses.
Thx for the address though :)
I don't see much of a problem with GBA mode, it's just a simple flag the game checks for. It doesn't use any extra hardware or anything.
As for a linked game, though, I feel like it would be taking the easy way out if we just coded in all the rings we need... though I'm not sure if that's what you're suggesting. Doesn't sit well with me at least.
I mean, I'm down for a normal linked game TAS that doesn't abuse passwords... but if we end up calling the credits, it would be kind of pointless :P