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I have a feeling that I might find something. After all, world 8 truly is a big world. But I'll try to improve 4-2 first.
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Forget the competition. Cooperation makes better movies, isn't that right?
I'm not afraid of doing anything, because 8-2 and 8-3 doesn't seem hard to me at all.
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I swear I wouldn't. I'd do the best I can to help you. Is that OK?
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Thanks, I don't mind at all. I'd like to hear criticism as long as it's friendly or helpful.
By the way, did anyone really see my WIP? I would really like to see comments for that.
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Brandon wrote:
1-2, sorry. There's a point in which you run into a block and I don't understand why you do that instead of jumping over it. It doesn't save any presses.
Oh, the coin block in 1-2. That's a clever part, because I won't be able to do the wall jump if I don't slow down a bit, but since I'm holding right for a long way, I have to bump into at least a wall.
As for a fully optimized minimum presses run, I don't really enjoy doing this. So I might be more willing to help you find improvements instead, or a nice and friendly co-authorship would be better.
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Well, I don't read RAM so well, so what I often do is guessing over and over again. You do better than me of course.
Excuse me, but I didn't get what you meant when you were saying "floating block at the beginning of 4-2". Could you tell me where exactly is the block? Thank you.
Edit: Since I've created a demo, don't you like to improve it yourself?
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Thanks, Brandon. I think my input configuration might be wrong, thank you for telling me that.
I've hardly ever watched memory addresses of enemies. I'll try to learn it if it's necessary in 8-3.
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Yeah, that's right. But every strategy has its limit, we have to imagine what would be the limit of this run, that is to say what would be the future of this TAS.
First of all, I've proved that 1-2 can be done 12 seconds faster. I don't know if it's a good thing from the entertainment point of view, because it does make the run looks even more like a "newbie run" or something that has been mentioned above.
World 8 might have several improvements. I'd like to see how it would turned out, whether getting more and more similar to the published warped run or getting more and more similar to a "newbie run", or perhaps, having its more distinctive own character. I'd probably make demos for that.
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Thank you Personman for telling me that. I hate to be egotistical or something, and I don't think that I trumpet my work a lot. But I did seem to be a little too picky about the TASes here recently, because I simply don't see them worthwhile for publications on this site. If you check out our Chinese SMB forum, you'll find out that I'm actually really happy for seeing so many recent good TASes produced by new Chinese TASers.
But as a matter of fact, the work simply can't speak itself, for you see, there haven't been a single comment for the WIP itself till now. When submitting a WIP of Hard Relay Mario, you have to at least put on some commercials, or no one would like to watch that.
It truly is "one of the hardest tasks in the world", even I think it's the craziest challenge I ever faced, but it might be inappropriate to say it here. And I really shouldn't say this run beat someone else "pretty hard", I wasn't meaning that way, I just want to find a comparable movie to tell how much faster is my movie. I'm sorry, and thanks for pointing those out.
There are technical challenges more than anyone could imagine, but unfortunately I cannot introduce them well in English, because it includes lots of glitches haven't shown in other movies yet.
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Talking about fun, there should be 2 kinds of fun for a TAS: the fun of making this TAS and the fun of other people watching it. In my case, I always try my best to increase the latter, even if I have to loose a great deal of the former.
But when we're discussing about whether a movie should be published, we're not going something like: "Hey, this movie's fun, let's publish it." "Hey, that movie's fun, let's publish it!" Up to now, I always think TASVideos is a fair place, and sometimes, even a cruel place, and that's why most of our publications remain on a high level. As Mars said a bit of angrily to me yesterday: "If TASVideos are going to publish such a movie that only takes several S/L to finish, then I have nothing to say."
SMB TASers like me and Mars may not see Super Mario Bros like the way normal people do. SMB is more than just a game, it's a whole new world for us. We all know there are million ways to perform Super Mario Bros, and not all of them have a chance to make to publications on TASVideos. Mars said to me last night that in no way would any true SMB TASers vote Yes on this submission, and he thought that I was like arguing with some newbies of SMB. I'm not saying that I totally agree with him, but you've see how we truly feel about SMB TASes.
As for me, I still can't understand how could a movie like this has any technical standpoint or entertainment, and I quite don't understand how would 142 presses be your 8th attempt at this feat. It seems to me that I would end up at around 146 presses for the first time if I was doing it, honestly.
Remember my latest SMB warpless run? No I think you've probably forgotten it already. I spent two years working extremely hard on it to maximize both the speed and the entertainment to the top, and I can't think of a single reason why it shouldn't be a Star movie, but it end up not having a moon at least, and with only 7.5 votes in such a long time. I have to say that I was disappointed, but, TASing goes on.
TASing shouldn't make things the easiest way, in some ways, TASing is tough. And we should not judge a book by its cover, we have to go deeper than that.
Actually we're arguing for the very same purpose: to make our site a better place, so there's no need to be "so what" all the time. Please forgive me if I said anything wrong, because I don't really know how to express myself well in English. But I can honestly say again that I have absolutely no disrespect to anything or anyone related.
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Here's another DEMO till 4-2 with an easy 714 frame (12 seconds) improvement in 1-2.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/79973731/HappyLee_SMB_MPdemo4-1.fcm
And somebody please help me check the sum of key presses in my DEMO to make sure it's exactly the same as Brandon's, because that lua script won't run on my computer due to some reasons.
Even I can't make the run interesting, that's the truth. I'd probably test out 4-2 though, to save some presses.
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Even though I know it aims for the minimum presses I still don't find it impressive anywhere, in any ways.
To be a Tool-Assisted Superplay, the run has to be "super" first. Judging from the technical standpoint, entertainment, and difficulty, it doesn't seem to be "super" at all, and that's fully agreed in our Chinese SMB forum which produces world-classed TASes. This run has it's advantages, but mostly I was bored watching it all the time.
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I think it's really a crappy thing to do that.
By the way, how is the SMW 96-exit and the SDW 120-exit projects going on?
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mklip2001 wrote:
I feel that this category really lends itself well to the theme of this site: playing beyond human means. Very few human players could keep a running tally in their head of all the presses they've made, so this is totally a type of run that shows off what TASing can do. It's ingenious in its own way, and I'm heartily voting Yes again.
I have to say that I'm just feeling the opposite. Sure human players don't remember all the presses they've made, because they don't want to. I hardly think anyone would like to keep the sum of presses in their head when playing a game. So in a way, the minimum presses strategy doesn't make much sense, especially without DDR-style effect. TASing can do all kinds of stuff in a game, like what Mars said, but we have to consider whether it's worthwhile to "show off" a concept like that seriously.
In my opinion, this run, even would been improved, would never look like a TAS. Mars said that he feels he can get it done without using other tools beside S/L, and I agreed, because this is quite a simple task, way easier than "minimum score 500", and I have a feeling myself would complete the task with S/L only with hardly any difficulty.
If not looking the bullet bill manipulation in 8-2, this movie looks just like a newbie playing Super Mario Bros, really. Routes in 1-1 and 1-2 are completely routes that newbies would like to choose, because it's just too easy. And newbies would also bump into a lot of walls, especially pipes, that that's exactly like the run has shown. Some of the newbies I know likes to run through a hammer brother a lot when it's jumping, because it's a safer way for newbies, and that is also shown in this movie. So I think this movie really sets an nice example for newbies how to complete Super Mario Bros with low difficulty, and is that what TASes all about?
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Here's an extremely easy 42 frame improvement in 1-1, just a demo for showing that this run is much improvable.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/497728135/HappyLee_SMB_MPdemo1-1.fcm
It would be much easier if the time didn't turn to "xx3". I have to waste a lot of frames in the first stage and 1 frame in the basement in order to make it "xx2". Felt kind of stupid doing this, but I'll probably make a demo for 1-2 if it's asked.
Once again, "minimum presses" might be a strategy suitable for challenging, but it only leads to boring movies. Maybe in 8-2 it starts to seem a bit cool, but so does 8-3 in my "minimum score 500" run. And as Mars said, it just seems too easy to be produced, way easier than getting 500 socre in SMB in my opinion. So I don't think it appropriate to be published on this site.
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Still voting no, with no disrespect. I know how hard you've tried to do this, but I just don't like to watch one of my favorite action games Super Mario Bros being done that way. Maybe other games would work better for this idea, such like puzzle games, or other action games.
Edit: Actually it still seems much improvable to me, not only key presses but also the speed. I would probably make a test run of it while I'm free. I'd like to discuss with you about it with PM or something later on, and if you need any help, I'd like to test it out for you while I'm free. But still, it would be sad for me to see it published on this site, even if it's well improved.
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Nach wrote:
As for counting key presses per submission, that's not really a big deal.
As a matter of fact, it is kind of a big deal to me, because it would look stupid on the submission page.
Nach wrote:
It's "super", because it requires long range planning in finding how to trade multiple buttons presses for less. It also shows off things in the game you just don't normally see. Mario walking by Hammer Bros like they're not even there? They just jump out of his way? Or bouncing off lots of things with no effort expended.
You don't look at the game as "oh I beat it in no time at all", it's more of "I beat this in my sleep, I barely even pushed anything". Or "Hey, I tied a rubber-band around the controller and walked away, and look, the game was beaten, this *game* is pathetic".
Unlike fastest time, this really is about "effortless play".
Well, it doesn't seem super to me. I see lots of people running through Hammer Bros that way. It's a lot easier and safer. I often use it myself, not in TASes.
Saving some presses ain't "cool", and getting the lowest score would make the game more "pathetic". And this run didn't "barely even pushed anything", actually 145 is still a great sum. Without the lua script, I don't think people would care or remember the sum of key pressing in a movie.
Nach wrote:
However, a Rubik's Cube competition can consist of doing it as quick as possible, in the most entertaining way as possible, or in the least amount of spins as possible. With TASing, we currently are missing this last metric.
I know, I'd very like to see a a Rubik's Cube soved with the least moves, but I don't like to see Super Mario Bros soved with the least key presses. The idea would kind of ruin my favorite action games. Maybe the idea works better with puzzle games.
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If it would get published, then TASVideos would open a gate to welcome all kinds of "minimum presses" TASes, and soon there would be SMW MP, Megaman MP, and so on. We would probably need a counter for key presses for every submission, and "minimum holds" TASes would want to join in TASVideos, too.
If it would get published, then I think we would have to change the defination for the word "TAS" again, since it's neither a speedrun nor a playaround.
Glitches of this game has hardly been shown in this run, only a walljump or two. And like Tub said, it's too similar to the warped run of mine, just avoiding needless jumps and more bumping into walls, really actionless for such a cool action game looking from the outside.
People do enjoy incredible speed and amazing entertainment in TASes, but do they really care how many buttons are pressed? The sum of key presses are not that meaningful in my opinion, although I always keep the key inputs in its neatest way, and some TASers like music playing with inputs, but those are for making movies perfect and surprising the audiences. It's not like solving a Rubik's Cube with the least moves, key presses are something that buried deep inside the game and shouldn't be digged out. Besides, a little more presses won't hurt your keyboard or your gamepad.
Again, this is not a bad movie or an April Fool's submission, but forgive me, I just don't see it worthwhile to be published.
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NitroGenesis wrote:
great work, you beat a playaround. clap clap
It's not really a playaround, because the author Mushroom was clearly thinking about how to complete the level quickly, although it's not strictly aiming for the fastest time, which requires lots of techniques and TASing skills.
Actually, this run does not compete with Mushroom's run, it's mainly an improvement to Mars's HRM speedrun, which is much less known here than Mushroom's run.
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Here's one of my my latest projects, a Hard Relay Mario speedrun. This is definitely one of the most challenging tasks in the world, and especially for stage 1-A. I hope that I can finish it to 4-1 in this year.
Here's the first WIP of the project, where stage 1-4's just finished. It's pretty closed to the limit as I see it, and it beats Mushroom's runs pretty hard (3843 frames already).
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/927061085/HappyLee_TAS_HRM_WIP1-5.fcm
Have fun watching, and don't forget to bring comments, thank you.
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Voting no for a branch that shouldn't be published on this site I think, good movie though. It would make a good April Fool's Day submission, but since we should take it seriously, so no.
It doesn't look entertaining on the outside, and seems not too technical to me from the inside. So I think a "minimum presses" on SMB might not be a wize choice to be published on this site. Maybe there are other games more suitable for that strategy, I don't know.
"Minimum Presses" seems like a strategy apart from the most of the TASes. It created a challenge outside the game, and only meaningful in a TAS movie. I don't know if the strategy makes sense to most of the TAS viewers and game videos viewers. It seems to me, that in TASes we should pay more attention to the motion of the game itself, and created more interesting movies to watch, instead of putting lots of mind on how to save "a press". But it could be a interesting competition outside the publications of the site, though.
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Nice April Fool's joke.
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The new run I made beats Mushroom's run PRETTY HARD. Anyway it's not a good place to talk about it, I'll probably release a WIP after finishing 1-4.
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I'm not saying I'll go for the run at once. I'll probably make a DEMO chosing the fastest route for ones who want to have a try.
I have other TAS projects, most recently, Hard Relay Mario.
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