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Masterjun wrote:
Actually, giving a rating only takes a few clicks. It doesn't distract from encoding or publishing.
Actually, considering the fact that he (and also EZGames69) have copied my exact rating for MrWint's run, it takes more than a few efforts since he chose to make it personal.
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Mars608 and I wish to replace the current screenshot (3-2) with the same frame as our suggested screenshot (5-1) from our submission text, if possible. (Fixed. Thanks to klmz, and also for the very precise descriptions.)
Edit: Both encodes seem broken to me. Modern HQ (13.35 MB) is not in sync most of the time, Compatibility (40.28 MB) is in sync but drops frames in many places.
We take this work seriously, and we expect our experienced encoder and publisher to do the same. Unfortunately, to me, Spikestuff was too busy giving this run a bad rating to do his job right.
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Congratulations on Submission #6000. And NES TASer of the Year?
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I think Brazil (though it's my favorite team) will be beaten by a European team like France. Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi will both cry. Germany should be in top 3.
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Thank you feos for your compliments. Glad you like it.
Since there have been already three people (mtvf1, feos, Challenger) nominated this for Star, plus both Mars608 and I have little idea of how our warpless walkathon got the Star instead of the warpless run, is this worth discussion?
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Sorry but I just saw this topic and the branch name changes of my familiar movies. I have to say honestly I prefer the old way of naming branches, and to me, branch names should be as short, simple and elegant as possible.
Nach said "you know what each run is about by looking at it's title", but we also have tags which also contain information and are helpful to newcomers.
I think branch should reflect goals in the simplest form, and we don't need an artificial branch for a simple "any%" goal.
For example:
NES Super Mario Bros. (JPN/USA PRG0) "warps" in 04:57.31 by HappyLee
I don't think this "warps" branch is necessary, because the goal is equivalent to "any%", and "warps" is just one of the basic things Mario can do, not a limitation or special goal choice. We don't used to have it and it worked just fine.
For example, we have:
NES Contra (JPN) "pacifist" by Soig & zyr2288 in 09:29.08
and
NES Contra (JPN) by zyr2288 in 08:51.73
These two branch names are simple and elegant. We don't have to call the latter:
NES Contra (JPN) "kills" by zyr2288 in 08:51.73
Just as it would be a disaster to call the current SMB run:
NES Super Mario Bros. (JPN/USA PRG0) "warps, jumps, runs, kills, no-powerup, not maximum coins" in 04:57.31 by HappyLee
However, "warpless walkathon" is totally necessary, because with "warpless" removed from the goal, it's just "walkathon", and walkathon's a lot faster with warps.
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Nach wrote:
Please see everything I wrote in this thread about psychology and the links I provided to understand this topic better.
I totally see what you mean. Thank you for your comments and advice.
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I don't find investigation for this particular case necessary, since it's not that hard to figure it out using common sense. Nach has already provided a perfectly good explanation, and even though it's just his assumption and really hard to prove it, I find it a fair assumption.
I think the first step of fixing a problem is to admit there is a problem. Although many statistics suggest that there's something unusual about the amount of negative votes for this particular submission, and clearly I'm not the only one noticing this, but what's even more disappointing is that many people refused to admit there is a problem and tried to justify the voting result, while blaming me for all what's happened. This could make my run look as if it deserves so many negative votes, and make me look crazy instead of the victim of an unfair voting result.
p4wn3r has already suggested a solution satisfying to me, even if it doesn't require investigation, and just with an administrator or a judge reminding people to vote rationally and based on the movie. I don't think such solution would offend anyone, and would definitely prevent the situation from getting worse.
feos wrote:
...because our goal is making this site a good place for TAS artists and other enthusiasts.
I have to say, as a TAS artist, I'm disappointed this time, and even somewhat regretted submitting our run here. I don't like to be constantly blamed by many people over trivial things, neither does our hard work. Criticisms are OK, as long as they are fair and rational. But this time, having to argue over a run that shouldn't be controversial at all really upsets me.
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feos wrote:
HappyLee wrote:
I think maybe under circumstances like this, some administrator should come up and say something like: "People, place your votes seriously, and don't let your feelings take over the facts" (except I can't express it well).
Which circumstances exactly?
I think that's really obvious. Surely Nach and p4wn3r knew what I was talking about.
HappyLee wrote:
I'm just not happy with so many people not voting seriously in this particular case. It happens to be the run I value the most, which happens to be a run that shouldn't be controversial at all.
Nach wrote:
The problem here is that some people are not voting on the run at all, they're voting on what they liked or disliked about what you had to say regarding SMB and TASing in the past couple of weeks. They'll even make up excuses why they voted the way they did instead of just outright saying "I'm angry at you because I don't like what you've written recently, and penalizing all your SMB submissions because of it." (yet in their own minds not necessarily see it as an excuse, they may 100% believe they don't like the run)
p4wn3r wrote:
That's exactly what people were saying at the thread at the time, and instead of addressing the issue, all responses were like "yeah, the poll is like that. it's not appropriate of you to complain about that. stop calling out the voters."
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feos wrote:
What's with this decision to skip questions from staff about your suggestions to staff, HappyLee?
I'm sorry, but I really don't know what you're talking about...
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c-square wrote:
I was surprised you took a firework on 6-1, but I'm guessing it's slower to wait. Also I'm guessing you didn't do the flagpole glitch on 8-3 to avoid getting three fireworks. Am I right?
One firework won't coast a framerule 20/21 of the times, so I won't have to avoid it in 6-1. Yes, 8-3 is to avoid three fireworks. Thank you for enjoying this run.
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Suggesting truly exhaustive search of the entire game is simply infeasible and totally unnecessary.
In my opinion, partial and limited exhaustive search is still exhaustive search.
For example, you want to exhaustive search one extremely difficult movement, which is 100 frames in search length, and you can limit inputs to A B Left Right only (probably because you don't find Up Down Select Start useful in this particular movements). Variants_of_input = 2^4 = 16, and variants to check = 16^100.
I don't find it feasible using lua script (since it's too slow), but it's totally feasible using MrWint's approach (as we all know he has succeeded in doing it). So my question was, could it be achieved without creating a model so it can fit any game?
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Nach wrote:
I recommend trying to understand why they're upset (even though it may be irrational), and working to make them less upset. Also don't take the negativity you see about your run so seriously, not everyone is being objective at the moment.
I know you're right. Thanks for your advice. :)
p4wn3r wrote:
The situation is extremely easy to solve. When HappyLee canceled the submission, say something like "it has reached us that the submitter canceled the submission in protest regarding the validity of the No/Meh votes. Given that this submission has received an unusual amount of negative votes, we decided to investigate. Upon consultation with the No voters, we received the response that they would have preferred a more minimalistic approach to the levels than the ones provided here. Although troubling, we did not find any conclusive evidence of voting guideline violation. We ask that the users vote based on the merits of the movie and not on previous events and ask the submitter to reconsider the cancellation in view of these facts.", and that's it, no drama, no bans.
Yes, I'm pretty sure I would be satisfied with that.
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Actually I'm OK with our current voting system. It's definitely useful to a certain degree, and I wouldn't like it to change. I'm just not happy with so many people not voting seriously in this particular case. It happens to be the run I value the most, which happens to be a run that shouldn't be controversial at all. The voting result has made our hard work seems very bad and somehow controversial.
I think maybe under circumstances like this, some administrator should come up and say something like: "People, place your votes seriously, and don't let your feelings take over the facts" (except I can't express it well).
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What if we use an open-source emulator, minus graphics and sound and all unnecessary process? Could anyone tell me how much it would be slower than MrWint's approach (simulation)? Theoretically it could fit all games, without code disassemble or creating a simulation.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
No one here has confronted Lee personally for anything OTHER than how he has disrespectfully responded to other people's opinions regarding his work (which includes the voting tally).
It's never my intention to respond to others disrespectfully. I always aimed to argue rationally and respectfully disagree with some of the opinions, though I may fail without knowing it sometimes (because of my language and cultural barriers). And if that's the case, I apologize for that.
DrD2k9 wrote:
Some have simply expressed their perspectives on why they found the run entertaining or not.
Yes, and I have simply expressed my view (as one of the creators of this run) on their perspectives.
DrD2k9 wrote:
However, I believe that HappyLee's biggest problem with this submission/discussion is the that he simply can't accept that things didn't turn out exactly as he EXPECTED; and that, in my opinion, is arrogant/egocentric.
I don't think it's wrong to have expectations for hard work. After all, it's not like my expectations are anywhere near unreasonable. I already stated that it's perfectly normal to have 98% "yes" votes and no criticism for my run just a year ago. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but this whole thing and sudden change seems more than a coincidence.
Many people justify the voting results without a satisfying answer to my question. I think the obvious answer is, that many people didn't vote seriously or rationally this time, or were just biased or making it personal. You said I made this claim without evidence, I don't, but I don't think I'm alone in questioning the voting result this time, and I don't think it's arrogant/egocentric to expect exactly what this run deserves.
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I totally agree with p4wn3r.
Just to add things up: I find MrWint's approach of TASing SMB (or any game) with algorithms highly intelligent and brilliant, even probably revolutionary. However, I do think it can be controversial in some ways, since it's just so different from the usual approach we've been practicing for years. For an observer or outsider, it can be seen as real progress and something really beneficial, but for an experience TASer like me, it can hardly make me happy, and actually got me worried.
Maybe very few could understand how I felt. It's like you study Go the entire life, and fight hard to be one of the top Go players, and then you meet Alpha Go, which would beat you almost inevitably. This really has nothing to do with my ego, but just some seemingly unimportant concerns that very few could understand.
Edit: BTW, I believe it's possible to make a bot that's truly exhaustive, for a small part. I'm interested to know how long does it take for a bot to exhaustive search 10 frames or 100 frames (for simple NES games, for example).
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Zeupar wrote:
Which are these facts you mention that prove that their opinion is "false or biased or stupid"? Because that claim is so bold and presumptuous that I hope you have some undeniable facts to back it up.
I've argued about this several times, and even wrote a long argument since so many people brought it up this time. The simplest fact I mentioned is that not slowing down is the easy approach. For more facts, please take a closer look at my arguments.
I've even brought up our guidelines, and it has a lot to support my approach. I don't know if those people have ever read it, so I'll just quote some of those here.
"Create art even when waiting."
"Do something unexpected."
"Be different. Take faster routes or shortcuts that no one takes, whether undesirable or impossible in real play."
"If you have the choice, try to do things in a more impressive way than the easy way. If enemies are hard to kill, kill them."
Zeupar wrote:
Speaking of facts, MrWint's run's average entertainment rating is currently 7.9 (and that's including your and Mars' very low ratings) compared to the 8.4 of your 2012 run. Don't you think that a measly difference of 0.5 is not enough to repeatedly claim that your approach to TASing this category is undoubtedly superior?
Again, I'm containing myself not to really comment on MrWint's entertainment because I hate to criticize his work, so pardon me for skipping this question.
Zeupar wrote:
For a good example of how to defend one's work in a respectful manner, something that you seem to be quite bad at, check MrWint's posts here.
By the way, I have seen you using the language barrier as an excuse for your behavior, but that won't fly. When you consistently belittle MrWint's run and hard work and use terms like "laughable", "stupid", etc, you mean it.
I agree that MrWint's manner is better than mine. For me, the language barrier is very real, and there's culture barrier, too, since I'm Chinese. It's also my style to argue straightforwardly instead of containing my choice of words for manner. To be honest, typing so many words already means lots of headaches for me, so I can't afford the extra time or energy to be polite all the time. Sorry.
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TheProJamer wrote:
HappyLee, I don't believe anyone has said that your opinion is wrong, most posts have said that entertainment is subjective and nothing else.
DrD2k9 said I'm "egocentric", Zeupar said I'm "arrogance", EZGames69 said "I shouldn't have made it controversial", and you accused me for "starting this sequence of events". So basically many people are blaming me (and me alone) for this drama while justifying the voting result, while all I did was defending my work and saying this run somehow got unbelievably more negative votes than it deserves, and that people should vote seriously. Am I expected to just "keep silent" when this happens to our hard work?
Even I agree that entertainment is subjective, partially, but do not ignore the objective goals and principles in entertainment. It's in our guidelines, and this run happens to have followed every advice from our guidelines.
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hopper wrote:
Pros: Improvement to an existing run.
Cons: ?
Cons: We can criticize this run for whatever reasons I feel like, but you can't even suggest our opinion is false or biased or stupid, since feelings (or anything subjective) can't be wrong. If you raise counterarguments with facts, it's called "shutting down the freedom to express" somehow.
GoddessMaria wrote:
Kudos to Mars608 and Mr. Wint for keeping a cool head throughout this and staying out of the chaotic mess.
So kudos for keeping silent? Are you suggesting that I should also keep silent and just pretend that all the negative votes and criticism towards our run make sense? So who's "shutting down that freedom to express"?
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NotoriouslyEpic wrote:
I don't believe that Lee can expect 90+% of people to enjoy the run (I don't think that should ever be EXPECTED), because at the end of the day, it's subjective.
Actually, I did, because TASVideos to me was always a place of talented TASers and rational arguments, and where very few people put feelings over facts. My previous SMB warpless run received 49 "yes" votes and only two "no" and "meh" votes all together, and my SMB2J TAS a year ago received 60 "yes" votes and only one "no" or "meh" all together, while its improvement is much less significant compare to this run. Also, not a single negative comment by all means.
This run is literally my most satisfying work ever. It's one of the most important categories of one of the most famous and classical games. The improvements are all nearly impossible. I've worked very hard to make sure every detail is in perfection. To me, this is seriously bringing SMB TASing to a new level.
So we end up with a polarizing submission of a run that shouldn't be controversial at all. Many people claimed that the vote result (once and for a long time less than 80% "yes" votes) makes sense because it's "subjective". My question is, what changed?
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Zeupar wrote:
how to ruin your reputation in a matter of days via pure arrogance.
If working hard on a project and defending your work is arrogance, then pardon me for being arrogant.
hopper wrote:
This should be uncontroversial, but I see people complaining about trivial stuff -- and yes, I'm using the word complaining, as opposed to "helpfully suggesting". By all means, make a helpful suggestion! Some people seem to have a compulsive need to find fault, while others seem to be making this personal. That ruins the fun for everyone -- especially the people who worked hard to make the run. I'm really just asking people to be civil and objective.
So true. I can't express it in better language so I just quote it.
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Spikestuff wrote:
HappyLee wrote:
So let me ask you this, how could you not notice and write 46 frame improvement in the description text, when MrWint clearly wrote "saving 45 frames" in his submission text?
Are you trying to ignore the fact that I'm a Publisher/Encoder to Super Mario Bros. not and I repeat not a TASer to the series? I don't TAS this bloody game.
Does it take a TASer to tell the difference between 46 and 45? BTW, I hate to mention that there was another obvious mistake in the text of MrWint's publication, which you fixed after I pointed it out. As an experienced publisher as you are, might need to be more careful next time.
I still have no idea why you blame me over this. I am a TASer of this game, but verifying TAS movies of others isn't my job, and I mainly watched MrWint's movie on YouTube.
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TheProJamer wrote:
You then responded to Spikestuff saying that he got the credit he should have gotten and claim he only voted "Meh" out of spite, and then practically make fun of Kung Knut for preferring MrWint's style, saying that if he prefers that he should just not watch TASes.
I'm not a native English speaker, so could you please tell me how I "claim he only voted "Meh" out of spite" when I said "I don't know if that's your real judgement or just angry talk", and how did I "make fun" when I asked a serious question: "Do you like a TAS to be more like a superplay or a regular real-time speedrun?"
I specifically said that I asked a general question, and Kung Knut gave his answer: both. So he thought a TAS should be both like a superplay and a regular real-time speedrun. What else should I say?
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