Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
Excuse me? I made it controversial? How?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
Spikestuff wrote:
To echo what Scepheo said, we're defending our votes because Lee wants to make us feel as if our votes are invalid.
So you're defending your votes, but I'm defending our work which shouldn't get so many unearned "no" or "meh" votes. Like I said, this particular run shouldn't be controversial at all.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
Grincevent wrote:
I kind of got an overdose of "every".
Every enemy that could be killed was killed.
Every trick that was possible to do was done at every opportunity.
Every boss was killed with fireballs (except the last one).
Every time Mario could, he shot fireballs at everything, including enemies that can't be killed with it. And every fire breath from bowser/koopa was hit with a fireball or more, for example.
Almost (combo breaker ^^) every castle had at least one part with Mario shooting according to the music.
That's why I did find it predictable after a couple of levels, particularly from the moment the fire flower was taken. Predictable and relatively repetitive.
There were some tricks that I liked, one off tricks and surprises, but they ended up mostly drowned in the rest for me.
So I get criticism for "doing the best I can" or "showing as much interesting tricks in a TAS as possible". OK, that's new.
It's true that (almost) every enemy that could be killed was killed, because I can't live with the guilt to let a poor enemy go free if I had the chance to kill it. You said it's predictable, but I bet you'll never know how exactly each enemy would be killed. I tried as much new and interesting ways of killing enemies as there is, and how to make the use of each enemy to the extreme. Also, I bet you weren't even sure which enemies belong to "could be killed" category until watching this run, since some of them are just really difficult to kill.
It's true that every castle had music synchronization (except 3-4), and that's because castles tend to be boring since there are basically no enemy to kill. But what you didn't say is that each time I do music synchronization, I use a different beat, so you'll never know what beat I'm going to play.
It's true that every boss (Bowser) was killed with fireballs (except the last one), but it sounds like you've never watched an SMB warpless TAS before.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
EZGames69 wrote:
HappyLee, I would really appreciate it if you addressed feos's post about professionalism and creativity. He brought up some really good points that I would like to hear your thoughts on, but it seems like you're purposely ignoring them.
I totally agree on feos, and would like to thank him for his kind words and inspiration. Sorry that I don't have the energy to reply to everyone here, but I did read every post seriously. Also thanks to people who liked this run and for their support.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
None of where I slowed down looks like an oversight or mistake. Perhaps you're not paying attention to the details. The truth is, this run is as optimized as an SMB TAS can get. Did you also feel that, Scepheo?
TiKevin83 wrote:
I'll just make a note that I heartily agree with the idea that more people would be satisfied with the final entertainment focused submission if it were accompanied by an input file that has the optimized individual level frames. The final product of this TAS is awesome but without the other file it's much harder to improve on, even if such improvements are hard to impossible anyway.
So you're saying that we need to make two version of this movie just to make some people satisfied, or for it easier to improve on?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
I might need to add a few things explaining my "trading in-level frames for entertainment" approach, since some brought it up.
* I've been practicing this approach since my last warpless TAS in 2012. I've used it many times in "maximum coins TAS", in SMB2J TAS and SMAS Lost Levels TAS last year, and very recently in "all items" TAS. I don't remember anyone telling me they don't like this approach, and there have been almost no "no" votes. Yet this time is the only exception, much to my surprise.
* It's never sloppy, and quite the opposite. All the places where I slowed down was well planned and calculated. Remember, not slowing down is the easy way to do.
* I never slow down for no reason. If slowing down is necessary for killing an extra enemy, showing an extra glitch, or in other words, making the run less boring, predictable and ordinary, why not? Slowing down isn't always bad if you know what you're doing and have a higher goal in mind.
* Nobody really cares of in-level frames. You can't even tell the in-level frames anyway without memory watching, All the SMB real-time speedrunners I know don't keep track or in-level frames except for 8-4. All they care, and all what matters is whether they save or lose a framerule. SMB is a framerule based game, and SMB speedruns largely rely on framerule. In fact, probably no one cares or knows about in-level frames more than I do, since I can remember approximately the frames needed to save the framerule of all levels in SMB TASing since years ago. Yet entertainment means much more to me.
* What's the point of saving in-level frames anyway? You'll just end up losing all of them when the level ends. So why not put the frames wasted at the castle pause (nothing happens) to where the real action is?
* I found an idea fascinating in TASing: sometimes you waste time to save more time. A perfect example is 8-2 Bullet Bill glitch ending by klmz. In this case, you waste time but not lose time, to earn something more, which I found also fascinating, because you have to take advantage of the framerule, and make careful plans to do it right, something that takes imagination and courage, and can only happen in a TAS.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
DrD2k9 wrote:
The only reason I see to make this type of egocentric statement is to puff yourself up and suggest that your methods make you superior to others. As with anyone else's, your methods aren't superior...they are just different.
How did I make myself superior to others just by saying the fact that I did this run without additional tools? Isn't it how people normally make TASes? Honestly, MrWint's way of making a TAS looks superior to me, since very few people on TASVideos has his ability to create more advanced tools for TASing.
I won't reply to your further statements. Sorry for my "ego" or "egocentric statement" or "egocentric view" which you can't stop talking about.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
thecoreyburton wrote:
It's just one of those things that happens, especially when there's some debate or controversy surrounding a run.
Except this particular run shouldn't be controversy at all. It's two solid improvements over a run of a very old and important category of an already maxed out game, and we did it without additional tools.
The reason for the cancellation is simple. I'm not happy with some people here who didn't take voting seriously, of whom in this case there are too many. With so many "no" or "meh" votes, I have every reason to believe that maybe our hard work doesn't belong to TASVideos after all.
For a maxed out game like SMB, entertainment choices mean everything. Mario could have just run from the beginning to the end, which is so easy. Yet no one takes entertainment as seriously as I do, not even Mars608. I've been tirelessly digging out new entertainment strategies just to make the whole running process less boring. No one can imagine how pissed off I am to hear some people saying that this is somehow less entertaining than MrWint's run without providing evidence or details. Yes, entertainment can be partially subjective, but at least don't let your feelings go over the facts.
Like I said earlier, if I really were to criticize MrWint's run, the easiest way is to start from entertainment, because that's what I value the most, and I can talk about it all day. Since some people brought up the comparison of entertainment to MrWint's run, I thought a lot yesterday about whether I should compare entertainment and talk about details seriously, but then I decided not to start on it this time, because I still wanted to be nice.
So all I say is this: I didn't have to be so hard on myself when making this run and spend so much effort trying to bring this run into a new level of SMB TASing, just to have my work degraded by some people here. I could have done this the easy way, without having to worry about how to deal with every jump, every fireball, every detail, every new and exciting ways of killing enemies, new ways to show more glitches of this game, or where to slow down for entertainment. If people here can't appreciate it, why should I bother submitting my work on TASVideos at the highest standard possible? I could care less.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
Spikestuff wrote:
HappyLee, why didn't you bother actually bringing up that the file axe grab was a frame off? If we knew about this we could've fixed it to the "prefered" ending frame of Super Mario Bros. but no, you hammed it in through majority of the "discussion" on that submission and never brought it up only until your own submission.
Simply because I didn't make a comparison video or actually calculated the frame result back then. I just knew that he saved 21+21+3 frames, and assumed that he ended the movie on the correct frame. Besides, isn't verifying a movie more like a judge's job? I'm not a judge, and I mainly watched MrWint's TAS on YouTube. I just found it when I was making the comparison video this time and noticed there's a 1 frame error. Did I do anything wrong?
Edit: Just noticed that you're the publisher of MrWint's movie. So let me ask you this, how could you not notice and write 46 frame improvement in the description text, when MrWint clearly wrote "saving 45 frames" in his submission text? And you're blaming me over this? Why should I be responsible for not noticing the frame off MrWint's movie, since it has nothing to do with the improvements?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
Kung Knut wrote:
But entertainment is subjective, and MrWint's run was more entertaining to me.
Entertainment is subjective, so could you answer the following question in general, just from your subjective point of view?
Do you like a TAS to be more like a superplay or a regular real-time speedrun?
If your answer tends to be the latter, then why not watch Kosmic's real-time speedrun? It's fast enough, and it's live. Why watch a TAS?
It's so easy to do this TAS in the easy way. I don't have to slow down for entertainment. I don't have to spend so much effort shooting more Spinies in as many ways as possible in 4-1 and 6-1. I could have just killed the Latiku right from the start and run through the entire 4-1 and 6-1 like a pacifist exactly like MrWint did. So why do I bother trying to make an entertaining run?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
Nach wrote:
HappyLee wrote:
but I'm not into other games anymore
Not even SMB2j?
Those pretty much count as the same game to me. You know what I mean. Many people asked me if I'll ever try TASing other games instead of SMB all the time, but maybe I'm just too old for other games. Besides, my quest on SMB is yet to be done.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
Challenger wrote:
EDIT: I like how you manage to make entertainment during most of the levels : )
What'll your next project someday?
Thank you. Me and Mars608 have a few projects in mind, but I'm not into other games anymore, so probably won't be any surprise. Considering the fact that we've already maxed out the game pretty hard, I'll probably take a little rest and leave this game in peace.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
Spikestuff wrote:
It's very undeserving by your part by not crediting MrWint as an author especially when you straight bullied him on his movie. You dismissing him here too?
What happened then is I offered a chance to credit MrWint as an author to our project, but only as an author who've found the 4-4 improvement, and MrWint kindly refused after some serious thoughts. In his own words:
MrWint wrote:
First of all, I'm happy to join you with your project to create an even better warpless TAS, but only if I actually can be helpful in the creation of whatever is left to do. I have already created the tools necessary to do precise optimizations, and I can apply them in furtherance of your project. It feels disingenuous to just join your project without actually contributing, maybe just to get this my submission out of the way of yours.
So I'm not bullying him or dismissing him or anything. I respect him and his work, and already give full credits of 4-4 improvement to him in my submission text. I don't find it necessary to credit him as an author just because he found the 4-4 improvement, since he didn't credit me as an author for all those previous improvements either. (And of course I'm not blaming him, because that's fair enough.)
Spikestuff wrote:
On the topic of entertainment, in comparison to this and MrWint's I prefer Wint's direction of the movie compared to yours. So in terms of comparison and entertainment I'm giving this a Meh.
I'm sorry to hear that. I don't know if that's your real judgement or just angry talk.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
xxNKxx wrote:
Yes, I think sacrificed for entertainment too. But example in 4-1 stage, nearly the flag, slow down to fire last enemy for entertainment, I think it's waste
What you mentioned in 4-1 is clearly slowing down, but it doesn't waste a framerule or an in-game second. It's like putting the time Mario inside the castle waiting for the next stage to appear inside the stage where real entertainment and action is. You have to understand that slowing down to shoot that Spiny is the hard way, and I totally didn't have to do this, but I don't like to be too predictable or too much like RTA runners in this TAS, and happen to think shooting one extra Spiny is a good thing not a bad thing.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
Mothrayas wrote:
According to forum statistics, ~6% of people with a gender flag set theirs as female, and ~87% as male. Take those stats as you will.
But having registered on TASVideos forum doesn't make one a real TASer. And there could be guys setting their gender flag as female for some reasons, so it's hard to tell what the real situation is.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
I'm not sure if creating TASes completely belongs to one of the nerd hobbies, since to me, TAS is the art of video games, not only speed competitions. Since it's art of some kind, and there are lots of female artists these days, why not female TASers?
I'm from China so I don't really understand nerd culture. Is computer programming a nerd hobby? But there are also female programmers these days, at least in China.
Also, if what you said is a fact, does that make us all nerds? Somehow I don't feel like a nerd myself...
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
I don't know if it's a silly question to ask, but after using search I haven't found any similar topic, so pardon me for starting one.
All TASers who I'm familiar with appear to be male (please correct me if I'm wrong). But it's ridiculous to believe that TASing is a man's game, since girls play video games too. I'm just curious to know if there are female TASers here who have made remarkable work, or what's the proportion of girls on TASVideos?
For guys coming into this topic, one extra question: How do your girlfriends or wives or close female friends see or understand what you're doing? Do girls like watching TASes or people making TASes?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
Thank you, arkiandruski, for putting the idea into action. (And for choosing SMB as your first video.)
First, some corrections on your document: the game doesn't save your subpixel position between levels. "Going right faster by going left first" isn't technically correct, and I believe it's called "backwards acceleration" or something.
I believe we should have separate videos on warps (any%) and warpless categories. Should be focusing on warps run first. Warpless TAS is more complicated, and its history is yet (very close) to be finished.
I don't think we should get too technical on subpixels, because most of the time, it doesn't matter. It doesn't really matter in 8-2, and it only matters in the first stage of 8-4, the one-frame improvement found by klmz.
What we should focus on is the wrong warp in 4-2, strategies in 1-2 and 8-4, and most importantly, the discoveries since klmz's time. Flagpole glitch is the most important discovery, and it saves the most time in SMB TASing in total. The Bullet Bill glitch in 8-2 takes even more imagination. Both of them were found by klmz and they are truly amazing.
The one-frame improvement of mine is really not that significant, if not for the facts that it improves one of the most unbeatable TAS that's been improved for years, and it could be the very last improvement to SMB warps (any%) TAS.
About the controversy you've mentioned in your document, I don't think it should be mentioned in the video. There are TASes that seek for fastest movie end and fastest completion, and I think for SMB, the latter makes more sense. How fast the movie could end largely depends on Bowser's movement and hammers' RNG. If the rule were ending movie as soon as possible, we would likely have to waste several frames in 8-4 on purpose to manipulate Bowser's RNG, which also means having to touch the axe several frames later, and I think that's just stupid, because 8-4 is the only level in SMB TASing that doesn't involves framerule and every frame matters.
I can go into details but my English skill limits me, so I only hope there's a chance that I'll see your document before it's finished so we won't make mistakes.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
This is a great idea, and I also have thought about it myself, but I can't make one due to my poor English skill.
I think we can make TAS progression videos at least as good as SummoningSalt's speedrun history series. I think he made some mistakes explaining TAS stuff in his videos.
We can skip minor movement optimizations and mainly focus on major time saving skills or major improvements.
Somebody from our TAS side should seriously consider putting this idea into reality. We don't yet have a decent TAS introduction video in my opinion. Lots of people on YouTube just comment that TAS are done by robots, or TAS is cheating, probably because we don't tell good stories from our side. It's important to explain important things in a non-technical way so that most people could understand.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
My ratings only represents my own view towards this movie compared to what I think a perfect run should look like. Since this is the project I'm most familiar with, to me, details matter a lot, and they not only count as entertainment value, also tech quality, since there are lots of technical tricks that should be shown in this movie but weren't. Please don't see it as my negativity towards this movie, but just understand that my standard and expectation of this project is very high and extremely rigorous.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
MrWint wrote:
Interesting, I didn't actually know 4-2 was that close. Your published warped TAS is 13 frames off, and in my testing I could save a couple of frames, but not 12 (the limiting factor mostly being enemies in the way). I might have missed something there, care to point me to an example where it is that close? I'd like to check that out. It's most likely nothing, but maybe we can have our collab TAS after all ;)
I thought you knew that through your tests. My published warped TAS sacrificed speed for entertainment, so that doesn't count. I'll send you a test movie file very soon, and feel free to test it whatever way you want. (Of course we can collaborate, that's what I've been saying. :p)
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
I'd also like to apologize for it got somewhat heated and for some of my language. Probably very few people could appreciate your work and those improvements more other than me.
MrWint wrote:
The one annoying me most was the pipe entry in 8-4 after the pipe clip, which is exactly one subpixel short of making it a frame earlier. What makes this especially annoying is that you can make it to the pipe a frame early, but you can't press down to enter it if you do, since you can't press down and right at the same frame while on the ground. You probably knew that, I just wanted to rant about it.
Yes, I knew that in 2010 when I was improving SMB TAS, and I got a bit disappointed also. I even did some research whether it's possible to enter the pipe while keeping the running power of holding right through other controller inputs, but I guess it's just not possible. Same thing also applies to SMB any% 1-1 and 4-2, where you're just 1 frame away from saving a framerule but probably just not possible.
Before your submission, I assumed the same thing for warpless 4-4. You've proved that I can be wrong sometimes. But now I got more confidence in SMB any% 1-1, 4-2 and 8-4, as your tools have proved that there isn't room for more improvements through mere optimization of existing movements.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
Wow that was impressive. You've really worked most improvements out yourself. My apologies for assuming that your tools did more work because I didn't learn many details about those improvements through your submission text.
If you really did succeed getting Fireflower in 1-4 in running speed before using exhaustive search tools, I take my hat off to you. I didn't know exactly how you did that since you didn't mention it in your submission text, and still I think you're missing the key to getting it in running speed in your explanation. But whatever, I'll just believe that you did.
The 4-4 case is a lot like I assumed, that you've figured out the relative screen position you need to load the Firebar and for the endscene first, then run your tools to find the best possible movement in the wall. I worked out the screen position part also, but the piece I was missing to solve this puzzle is that you can jump earlier in the wall to land a frame earlier. I think that particular piece that I missed was solved through your tools, but whatever, it's still very amazing that you could solve the entire 4-4 puzzle on your own, since I know it takes lots of knowledge and calculation, and yes, the movement in the wall couldn't be even a subpixel worse, and the movement between the Firebar and the axe couldn't be half a pixel worse. So congratulations again for solving a puzzle that's just barely solvable.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
MrWint wrote:
I did disect how they worked, and whether they can be improved significantly, but most came back negative.
That's what I thought, and it wouldn't be a problem.
MrWint wrote:
I had mentioned before that the 1-4 technique was in fact not found using the tools, but by hand, just like you apparently found it.
I saw your code on Github and you ran "Collect fire flower in 1-4 as big Mario" through your tools? Or did I misinterpret your code?
Edit: OK, my mistake. I just saw you said that you "figured this out on a piece of graph paper". To me, to be honest, is a bit difficult to understand and believe. How do you figure something like that on a paper, when the timing of a Fireflower is also important? And what about your code? Why do you have to run it through your tools if you'd already figured out that yourself?
MrWint wrote:
The wall clip technique in 4-4 is a bit more involved than you give it credit for as well. It is not only about clipping through the wall as quickly as possible, this can in fact be done even faster than shown in this submission. It is also about the relative scroll position of the screen, which matters for the ending cutscene, the correct alignment is necessary to save the decisive frame, so you need to balance going as fast as possible with not scrolling the screen too much. While the actual inputs that brought these extra pixels to make it work were computed by the tool, the planning that went into making the improvement work was not, and this is the part you were not seeing.
That's actually true. I already knew the relative scroll position part back when I was making "maximum coins" TAS and re-tested 4-4 just to see if there are improvements. I just assumed you've add that to your code as well, not just to maximize horizontal position but actually minimize Mario's screen position as well (or simply maximize "screen camera position ($71C)"?). Or am I mistaken about that as well?
I remember reading your code, such as in 7-1, you've printed out the entire map through your code; such as in 8-4, you've analyzed speed-up of every scene, and also the wall jump and turn-around movement through your tools. And there are more, so I assumed that you've run everything (except when there's an enemy involved) through your exhaustive search tools. It seemed to me that your tools were doing all the work testing all things and you just put those pieces together. I don't remember reading 4-4 so I don't know exactly how you did that. But your points of more human activity was involved in finding improvements in 1-4 and 4-4 shocked me, since I assumed your exhaustive search tools did mostly everything. Sorry if I misinterpreted anything about your work.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Expert player
(2454)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
MrWint wrote:
I think you still have some misunderstanding on how I created this run and what the tools I used can and can't do. So let me clear some facts for you. In short, what the exhausitve search does is remove the tedium, not the creativity.
I already knew exactly how you created this run and what your tools can and can't do from your submission text. A simple question, if I may: where's the creativity in this particular run other than your great programming skills of creating exhaustive search tools of SMB?
MrWint wrote:
In fact I figured most of this run out manually, e.g. using spreadsheets to track Mario's jump heights for the floor clips.
Actually you don't need to figure that out by yourself (in cases like 1-3 floor clip) when the solution is already there, since I've already figured it out back in 2012, and if you imitate or study my inputs or my movements, you get almost the same thing (I'm not saying that's exactly what you did, but it's true and the easy way). You can say that you didn't learn anything from my inputs or my movements, but I don't believe that you can create the same run without the tricks I found in 2012 and before that. The fact is, this run shows no new technical improvement except the fast Fireflower technique in 1-4 and fast jumping in the wall in 4-4 (which are both found through exhaustive search), and I think the way you say you figured most of this run out manually is somewhat an insult to my previous warpless run, as if you pretend it doesn't exist. Again, it doesn't take any imagination at all to replicate what's already done before (judging from the results).
MrWint wrote:
Claiming that it didn't take much creativity to find this just because you wrote a note in your submission text in 2012 is somewhat insulting. If it was so obvious, why didn't anybody else find it? Why didn't you find it back in 2012?
I was talking about the new route of getting the Mushroom in 1-3, which you claimed "the only improvement found by me (yes, manually) during this phase" but actually not since it's already in my submission text in 2012, which I believe you've read before. The only reason I didn't use the new route in 2012 is that I didn't succeed getting the Fireflower in running speed, as I said in the previous submission text. I do believe that you've found the fast Fireflower technique in 1-4 through your exhaustive search tools, but it doesn't mean that you've found "the better mushroom collection route in world 1" on your own, since that's already greatly hinted in my submission text so that alone is already obvious since 2012.
MrWint wrote:
Please stop pushing your narrative of minimizing this run, its entertainment value, and belittling my contributions in it, just to make you and your prospective run look better.
I'm sorry if I sounded like minimizing this run (I'm just bad at expressions), but that's not what I was trying to do. I haven't really started talking about or comparing entertainment value yet, and believe me, I have lots to say on that, so I've also been refrained. I haven't said that there's no contribution in this run, and I said you and your exhaustive search tools deserve full credits of solving 4-4 puzzle, which by itself is a great achievement, something no human TASer has ever succeeded before.
I was talking some points in a broader sense, since similar thing can happen to almost any project or any TASer. To be honest, what seems to me in this case is that as if you were trying to "steal" this project by finding improvements through your more advanced exhaustive search tools and imitating my previous movements and ideas while claiming that most things have been figured out by yourself. As I said, it would be very impressive if you've found the improvements entirely by yourself, manually, but unfortunately, the only two improvements in this run were both found by your advanced program, which is not that impressive to me because I've already known what an extraordinary programmer you are since last year. Technically, you can perform similar thing to almost any TAS project, because human TASers are just not a match to your exhaustive search tools in some optimizations. But to me, it's just not right to take or learn what's done before and claim to have "figured most of this run out manually". That's why I said I think cooperation with previous TASers of the project would be a better idea for the future.
Just a simple question: if you weren't trying to "steal" (maybe not a good word, but I know no better English word) this project, why didn't you send me a message like "Hey, I've made a program that's best for optimizing things in SMB, and maybe have found an improvement or two. Any interests of working on a new SMB warped/warpless run together?" But that's OK if you insist on doing it by yourself and I wouldn't blame you at all if you've found at least one improvement through your own manually. In fact, I would say "great job, terrific work" if you did the same thing without exhaustive search tools. But like I said, beating a TAS that's done manually with more advanced exhaustive search tools is similar to beating a real-time speedrun with tool assistance. It would be totally cool if the improvements are so great that speak for themselves, but in this run, only 4-4 and it looks almost no different to my previous TAS. And I wouldn't use the word "steal" if not for the fact that for SMB, any improvement could mean the very last (and you know that), and I do believe that you knew (maybe not for sure, but to a certain degree) that submitting this could potentially destroy me and Mars608's work if it weren't for the new rule of "entertainment also counts as an improvement", since there could be no other improvements to this project (or at least you couldn't find any, and I never claimed to have "more improvements" before your submission), but you submitted it anyway. I never blamed you on this, and I'm not blaming you right now, but it's just something I think you need to know. This is not a criticism, but only my suggestion to your future projects.
Reclaiming my points in the previous posts (please don't misrepresent them in a way like I'm minimizing this run):
* Improvements found by human TASers and by exhaustive search tools don't mean or feel the same. For example, I was much more impressed when Mars608 had found the fast Fireflower technique in 1-4 than learning some exhaustive search bot did the same thing.
* Optimizations done by exhaustive search tools don't require any imagination because that's their job.
* Using exhaustive search tools could beat (or at least tie) any projects in theory, as long as the program is powerful enough. That's why I don't find it a fair competition (if it has to be a competition).
* Bots should be used where human TASers are weak at, as a "helper tool", to strengthen human creativity rather than destroying it. That's why I think there are much better places and games to practice such tools so that it may lead to improvements which have more meaning and more human creativity involved.
* If improvements only come from small optimizations through exhaustive search tools, cooperation with previous TASers of the project makes more sense than "stealing" the project with more advanced tools and claiming the new run done by one's own.
Evil_3D wrote:
Why did you guys try to talk about this in the topic before? these situations make it appear that many of the SMB TASers have little communication between them and ends in a drama in the workbench at the point that they end up talking about Humans vs. Robots
That's because I didn't know MrWint was also working on SMB projects (how would I know that?). If I did, I'd totally like to communicate. I did announce in our SMB page that me and Mars608 were working on a new warpless project about two months ago.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
