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Posted: 11/18/2005 6:23 PM

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JXQ

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hanzou wrote:

if you swap (2) and (3) you end up with a better and faster-looking run while retaining clear consistent goals.

With 2 and 3 switched, it puts less importance on time spent on the world map and mushroom houses in favor of time saved in levels, which is where all the important action is. And I agree, it would make for a faster-looking run, even if the overall time was slightly higher, but personally, it's a tough call to make for me. On one hand, time spent in levels may be less, but on the other, the entire game time may be less. I can never decide which I think is more important.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/18/2005 6:14 PM

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JXQ

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How's it impossible?

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/18/2005 6:07 PM

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JXQ

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I think goals of a run are best listed with priorities in regard to each other: (1) Complete all levels (2) Win the game as fast as possible, so long as it does not conflict with the first goal (3) Play individual levels as fast as possible, so long as it does not conflict with the first two goals 3 is kind of redundant in this case; the list is more to illustrate my point of having a clear priority of goals, so that when they conflict, a choice is already made.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/18/2005 2:51 PM

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JXQ

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In Marble Zone 1, I'm having a hell of a time with the lava bounce. Xebra, I remember you mentioned having trouble with this as well. Is there anything I should know that might help? In the mean time I'm working on an alternative lava-jump method that hits the lava earlier. It doesn't look quite as cool, and currently it's slower because I get to the platforms that move in and out of the wall just a bit too late to jump to the second one in time. I had a GMV but the desync gods decreed that it shall not be usable. I'll keep working on this. EDIT: Marble Zone 1 complete. The WIP is here. Comments: I'm now comparing my times to Xebra's v2, which is played up to Labrynth Zone 1. It can be found earlier on this forum. There's a 241 frame difference between his v2 and v3, so I subtracted that for comparison times.

Marble Zone 1          Xebra    -4.01    JXQ      Diff
---------------------------------------------------------
First jump             2.34.36  2.30.35  2.29.47  0.48
Shield	              2.46.08  2.42.07  2.41.04  0.63
Land-push              2.56.59  2.52.58  2.51.58  0.60
Land-bottom            3.04.24  3.00.23  2.59.30  0.53
After Lava Platform    3.09.33  3.05.32  3.04.47  0.45
Blockappear            3.11.36  3.07.35  3.06.43  0.53
AboveGround            3.17.40  3.13.39  3.10.58  2.41
End                    3.23.23  3.19.22  3.16.39  2.43

I jumped down to the lava differently because I use the speed to jump into the lava at a different part. The frames lost from this difference are because of different placement; the actual seven frames lost were from doing the lava portion differently - I'm placed in front of a block I must jump over before heading right. I was able to jump directly onto the top of the last spiked weight, saving a lot of time. I'm not sure if this was possible in Xebra's v2 or not, it may be different timing, much like the different randomness in the lava portion, or it may not be; I didn't test it. The level is finishable two frames sooner, but hitting the enemies at the end delayed one frame, and jumping into all the bonuses delayed another. Both looked cool, and two frames isn't much of a price to pay. Final time of 0:46 for the level. EDIT-SQUARED: Also, this WIP has the newer version of Green Hill 3.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/18/2005 5:47 AM

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JXQ

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Finally got around to watching this, and I have two questions: 1) In the first world, you jump on a muncher, losing firepower, which you get back soon after. If you switched to Magic Mario, could you take a hit while switching (the infinite-hit glitch) to keep the flower? 2) In the fortress, you do a walljump. Could you instead switch to the leaf and fly once to clear the gap?

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/18/2005 3:48 AM

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JXQ

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GWing_02 wrote:

I'll attempt it in December. For now, I have no time for such trifling matters.

It's almost December if you still wanted to do a run :) If not, perhaps you'd want to improve the 15-exit run? It's definitely improvable by at least 5 seconds. EDIT: Did this demo for fun, it's about 2 seconds faster. Probably could hit 3 seconds if fully optimized. I also thought about WW4 with the message block a bit more, and I don't know if it would save time or not, because extra swimming backtracking is needed to place the block in the correct spot. There is less backtracking, but it is done without item in hand, so it may actually take longer. Didn't test though.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/18/2005 1:35 AM

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JXQ

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I looked over GH2 of both our runs; there is one jump I take at a later time than you do, which is the one that lands on the red spring, otherwise the jumps were nearly at the same spots. Every time I let go of the jump button early enough to do extra bouncing, I was reaching the S-pipe about three frames slower. I guess what I'm saying is that it's not that I'm ignoring these things, but I think that frames are more important, usually, and if I can get the frames I want, I don't want to spend so much time on certain portions that it makes me tired of the run. And I was using the slow walk in GH1 and the bored animation in GH2 as different ideas to pass the time while the score counts down. As I said, aesthetics are not my strong point, but I'll keep trying to keep these ideas in mind best I can as I continue the run. Thanks for your help!

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/18/2005 12:58 AM

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JXQ

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A use for the message block in Water World? Interesting...how does it work? Does Mario swim under the message block, through the wall? I can't tell from the picture. Could this still possibly save time without Yoshi? Not that it would matter, because Yoshi could just be kept from Water Secret. And the PW5b idea would definitely save some time if it works. Maybe you could make some SMVs with some of these cool tricks :)

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 11:47 PM

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JXQ

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I'm not sure if you were planning on submitting this, but movies here must be recorded from reset, not a savestate. This is one of the site's Rules - you may want to read through them, and the Guidelines as well. Also - to get this to sync, I had to turn off WIP1 timing.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 11:07 PM

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JXQ

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And anytime you jump with a P-wing, your speed decreases depending on the time spent in the air.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 11:06 PM

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JXQ

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Ouzo wrote:

In GHZ3, is there a way to avoid having to land on the platform in order to hit Robotnik one last time?

I tried a lot of different approaches to Robotnik. I tried hitting him from the right (using the edge of the screen as a momentum resetter) down low, so a low bounce would put me up at his head without the delay that happens on the first hit when coming from the left. Unfortunately, the delay is only moved to the extra time it takes to travel over Robotnik. If it was possible to hit him from the left side, and not ricochet to the left so far, then it might be possible, but I don't know a way to make that happen. I did find a different bouncing route that collects invincibility earlier (which does make flying through the air look cooler) and after defeating Robotnik I was able to hit the plunger one frame earlier. When I finish Marble Zone 1, the WIP I will upload will have this improvement as well. And thanks for the encouragement, I hope I can keep it up!

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 9:45 PM

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JXQ

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There is another thread where someone had a similar problem, it seems to be a bug in SNES9x. That thread is here.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 7:52 PM

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JXQ

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Finished with Green Hill 3. The WIP is here. Comments: I started the level 36 frames ahead of Xebra's run, and I had no idea why - the end-of-level sign started spinning only 2 frames sooner on my run. I eventually discovered that at the end of a level, the winning music begins after the sign stops spinning and Sonic is off the screen to the right. Xebra jumped and got the score bonuses earlier than this music, and he was on screen for 34 frames after the sign stopped spinning. This may have been intentional on his part, but I didn't notice it until I started on GH3 today. Ended up gaining 11 frames in Green Hill 3. Here is the list of checkpoints I used, although not all of them are perfectly reliable (because of the placement of Sonic on a spring, for example).

			              Xebra          JXQ       Diff
-----------------------------------------------------
GH2 sign spin          1.17.05        1.17.03   0.02
GH2 fadeout begin      1.35.54        1.35.18	0.36

GH3 First jump         1.39.43        1.39.07   0.36
GH3 First spring       1.45.38        1.44.56   0.42
GH3 Shoes              1.48.23        1.47.43   0.40
GH3 First enemy bop    1.52.35        1.51.52   0.43
GH3 First boss hit     2.00.47        2.00.03   0.44
GH3 Boss explode       2.05.05        2.04.17   0.48
GH3 Hit end switch     2.11.20        2.10.33   0.47

The frames lost between the spring and shoes are from different frame offset on the spring, I believe. I'm not sure how the frame was lost at the end; it may be that Robotnik's explosion can begin on multiples of certain frames and that one of the frames that appeared to be gained there actually was not. I also didn't take the invincibility at the beginning. Xebra took it to give the viewer something to watch during the level (since it's very airborne), but I always thought that the level was extremely entertaining in its own right, and there is another invincibility just before the boss, so I chose to skip it in favor of a few frames. The game becomes much different for Marble Zone, I think I can actually optimize a blocky, cave-like level like this better than a wide-open, wavy-grounded level. I still have Xebra's v2 WIP to look to for pointers, so hopefully I can keep making improvements.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 7:33 PM

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JXQ

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If Yoshi spits the shell out in mid-air, it doesn't drop peacefully, it flies off the screen, even if holding downward, thus I had to land. You can, however, take a vine there and climb it alllllllllll the way up to the top! The vine sprouts around the same speed as Yoshi's flight anyway, so it's not really a timesaver, but it's neat that the vine just climbs all the way up (it even eats through the clouds).

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 5:53 PM

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JXQ

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Tailz wrote:

To me, side-scrolling levels seem like an ideal choice since it eliminates waiting to make a jump or something, since you just fly at the top of the screen the whole time. You could add some entertainment by bouncing on enemies as you fly.

I think Mario is slower when flying than when running in this game.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 5:51 PM

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JXQ

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Bummer about the screen not scrolling. Mario can fly just as fast with Yoshi as he can alone, which surprised me. The excpetion is during a dive to catch extra air. Here's a demo of that (Super Mario World), based off your original demo. When turning Yoshi back around, -> has to be pressed for a multiple of five frames to keep fast flying.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 5:20 PM

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JXQ

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I would vote for "no animation", my reasons being: 1) Most people who have played SMB3 have seen this animation at one point or another. 2) It takes somewhere like 6 or 7 seconds extra per animation. 3) The amount of slowing down required to get a mushroom / flower is very small. However, working on Sonic 1, there is a similar dilemma: getting under 30 seconds gives a much larger time bonus, which takes more time to count down. In that case, I'm not worrying about the extra countdown time because the waiting required is much more noticeable than the pause in jumping when getting a card at the end of a level in SMB3. In the end it is your decision! This is just my long opinion.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 5:12 PM

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JXQ

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The game isn't really designed to be able to play through with Yoshi casually. If Yoshi is somewhere, it's usually intended that you need him. In Desert Star World, he's supposed to be used to eat the Pokeys on the way to the keyhole. He can be found in the bonus room in one of the pipes near the key. And Yoshi can't travel through those pipes. The only way I thought of was to play until Bowser Star World, then go back and get Yoshi, but this would take awhile.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 4:46 PM

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JXQ

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Getting this flight from placing Yoshi on a corner is interesting. It means that in Bowser's Star World, Yoshi could be flown up to the top platforms, dismounted onto the very edge just before the pipes, and the flying glitch could go from there. Is there enough speed to get under the pipes? This I don't know. But the closest place I can think to get Yoshi at that point is midway through Desert Star World (for the 15-exit run), but I may be forgetting somewhere closer. This strategy may or may not be faster in the 15-exit run, but I don't think it would be faster than the vine in the 120-exit run. I'm a little afraid to stop playing Sonic, as the curse may set in. ;-) Hanzou, did you happen to make SMVs of the tricks you're speaking of?

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 4:37 PM

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JXQ

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Yeah, the duration of the bonus is what controls how long between the sign spinning and the screen fading. At the end of Green Hill 2, I just waited until running to the right would put Sonic just off the screen, that way it looked cool. Technically, if a level time is very close to 30 seconds, it would be less frames to wait until that time, so the bonus is 10,000 instead of 50,000...but that would be stupid, and allow for all sorts of unoptimized portions in the level. And no random fadeout BS from Mario World here either! Frames gained in one level will carry over to the next. I'm happy about that.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 4:30 PM

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JXQ

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Well the one thing to check for that's not in Tokushin's run is exploitation of the duck-jump wall glitch. And as far as keeping powers, I would think the fire flower would be the default to keep for speed, except when flight would be needed. And since you're completing all levels, it would probably be worth it to get a Hammer Bros. suit somewhere to use on Bowser. It actually would be handy to use your run as reference in a no-warps not-100% run (which I'd like to do soon), seeing which levels take the most time to complete, and so forth. Are you starting this after Mega Man 3 or do you have other stuff to do between? Baxter: I think the confusion was in the "monkey" portion of the description.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 2:20 PM

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JXQ

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Thanks a lot, GWing! Yeah, I actually haven't sat down and watched it from start to finish yet either. It would probably end up being kind of like a comic book collection - whenever I go to read a Calvin and Hobbes book, I find myself remembering most of the comics and skipping to the next one midway through. I've gotten very trigger happy with the Tab button. (Which is bad for Sonic, Tab resets Gens!)

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 2:00 PM

Post subject: Re: sidequests

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JXQ

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Chrono Trigger wrote:

$FCfO: OLD MAN: One of you is close to[nl] 　　someone who needs help...[nl] 　　Find this person...fast.

This is for destroying the Black Omen, right? That's strange how it's still variable dependent, as when you defeat the Black Omen, Gaspar goes into a different speech, never hitting that variable check. Eh what the hell, it still works logically :P

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 6:12 AM

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JXQ

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You may have a different version of the Rom. If patching "Super Mario World (U)" doesn't seem to be working, it may be easier to just look for the "Super Demo World - The Legend Continues" Rom pre-patched. This run uses version 1.1 of Super Demo World - TLC. Also make sure "WIP1 Timing" and "Volume Envelope Height Reading" are checked, and the other settings are not, after selecting the SMV file, although this should happen automatically. Edit: Fabian, not every enemy is killable with the cape slide - Little Boos and Thwomps / Thwimps, for example, don't fall to it. I'm still trying to figure out what the glitched graphics could be a part of when these kinds of enemies are killed.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 11/17/2005 6:03 AM

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JXQ

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Apparently Geocities doesn't like me overwriting files, and just leaves the original. So I uploaded a new file and updated the link for GH2. I didn't realize I missed that ring at the time, but looking back, I don't think I'd change it, because I finally got a combination of jumps that worked for me at that loop to get a good speed going to and coming out of the S-pipe, and that was getting frustrating after awhile. I'll try to focus more on aesthetics, as I think they are important, but it's not really my strong point. Thanks for the advice!

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

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