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I don't just dislike the idea with the automated TAS converting thing, I absolutely hate it!
Seriously guys, creating a TAS is effort, doing thousands of rerecords to be sure that this is the best way one can do. And then just creating a bot where you can't be sure that this TAS is perfect? I think it's not nice to see a TAS you created to be converted to a better emulator and then be given credit for a possibly suboptimal run.
Converting movies by hand gives the opportunity to find optimizations or even new strategies to beat the game.
Are you really thinking that a bot can be created that is so reasonable that it can convert the slightest RNG manipulation and lag reduction strategies without writing a bot for each game in its own?
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Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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DRybes wrote:
My vote is no, because a more accurate emulator is not used, so the slower time is not justified.
cool when did the vote question change to
Do you want this movie accepted? ?
also lol @ not using a more accurate emulator which I totally didn't
DRybes wrote:
As an aside, I feel it is appropriate to credit a previous author in the "by" if a substantial portion of their work and input is being used.
good thing I didn't use the input.
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This run is actually faster (not just due to emulator differences), which Masterjun put a lot of work into in order to do.
Yes vote.
From his description, it sounds like all he did was resync it due to core differences, which happened to get to the desired RNG two frames faster. Which would mean that again, all that changed was the emulator.
yeah so?
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Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Masterjun wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Sparky and that red doo gives me Spark.
A red doo? Do you mean that pink Waddle Doo or a brown Waddle Dee?
If it's the Waddle Dee then it is obvious that you get Spark. To get Mix you have to swallow two enemies that would give you powers which a Waddle Dee does not.
That two. Don't know the names. If I swallow them, I get spark.
Yep that's a Waddle Dee. And as I said, Waddle Dees don't give you powers so they can't be used to get Mix.
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Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Sparky and that red doo gives me Spark.
A red doo? Do you mean that pink Waddle Doo or a brown Waddle Dee?
If it's the Waddle Dee then it is obvious that you get Spark. To get Mix you have to swallow two enemies that would give you powers which a Waddle Dee does not.
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Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
The 1 frame improvement comes from a better positioning at swallowing the 3 creatures, but trolls me after the 2nd jump at room 2. Lua script shows me ~+600 movement speed but it's actually gets reduced for no reason.
Well, the reason is because you jumped on that 45° slope. The game then changes your position by using another address (I guess) because as soon as you hit the bottom of another floor you will regain the original speed...
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CoolKirby wrote:
Good work, Masterjun! Do you think the run can be improved further?
If nobody finds a better route (I also tried some other ones, but they were slower or caused too much lag) then I think this run is already or almost really optimized.
The only thing I could imagine is slowing down at random places to get lucky and reduce the lag...
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Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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TASeditor wrote:
The RNG can manipulated with jumping.
By testing I figured out that if you don't jump, the next enemy will always do the same. Then I searched RAM for a value that changes only after I jumped and I found $003E and $003F. A quick cheat test and I found out that these affect what the enemies do and thus they are the RNGs.
Now how do they advance?
Well, after going through a trace log I couldn't really find a simple formula for it but I wrote a lua script that calculates future RNGs. It does a lot of shifting and rotating with these two values... 11 times.
And how do they determine what the enemy does?
I could somewhat simplify that formula. It adds and subtracts a few values indexed by $003E and the result is a number between 0 and 3 so that there are 4 different things that the enemy can do.
For example a Waddle Doo:
0 - jumping
1 - walk
2 and 3 - attack
Why does jumping call the RNG?
Because it is not jumping that changes the RNG, it is landing! The star that flies away from Kirby when he touches the ground can have 8 different directions.
(It is determined by $003E % 8 where 0 is upwards and then it goes clockwise so that 7 is top left)
The lua script can be found here.
With that knowledge I went ahead and completely started a new movie but I didn't find any better routes for RNG. I could however reduce the lag for some places... only to get more lag on other places (sometimes even slowing down can remove lag frames). I ended up with a total of 2183 frames... which we already had... damn.
btw, to make that movie work on the new PPU just replace the last frame by an input that presses every button except Select
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Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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TASeditor wrote:
Here's a one frame improvement until entering room 3.
I saved one frame in room 2 but I'm not sure if the 3rd room will work as fine because the last enemy doesn't like to jump...
I might look into the physics of this game and understand how the slope jump works...
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Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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TASeditor wrote:
Masterjun wrote:
I decided to join this frame war so here is my 2183 frames run (3 frames faster than current). I optimized the jump through the slope which might can be optimized even more (AAAAH LAG)
Very nice. did you just improve the slope jump part? or did you use MESHUGGA's first room improvement as well?
I used your movie but I guess there are more optimized WIPs somewhere in this thread
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Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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CoolKirby wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
You shouldn't rely on this address solely. The glitch is CPU clock* dependent (you can verify this by pressing input at 4th (1st non-lag) frame and see that the only thing changes is the cpu clock.
Would that mean delaying the frame would change it? Or only a completely different sequence of input or events (the enemies using their attacks or jumping, for instance)?
I debugged it as well and I agree that there are strange things going on. I not sure but the code basically jumps to $904A with the wrong bank loaded (?) and then executed a bunch UNDEFINED instructions and BRKs until it sometime executes a RTI and starts executing normal code (credits routine?).
I decided to join this frame war so here is my 2183 frames run (3 frames faster than current). I optimized the jump through the slope which might can be optimized even more (AAAAH LAG)
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Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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Kaphotics wrote:
grassini wrote:
3If someone already knows the intricacies of the system,who can tell if somebody isn't already winning battles with knowledge of this?Spreading the word might help to counter this precious info.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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So I made a testrom (edit: the first two word numbers are crap, the first real value starts at the third number) that simply reads $4218 as a word at the start of V-Blank a bunch of times and then prints to the screen.
When for example pressing B (which results at the end in a 0x8000 at $4218 when read as a word) it looks like this in Bizhawk/lsnes and like this in Snes9x (this explains why it was much easier to do the glitched SMW run in Snes9x).
However, I'm not good at making ROMs and this was the first one I've ever made. I only know that it reads $4218 as fast as possible and as early as possible. As far as I can tell
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Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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jlun2 wrote:
Patashu wrote:
Masterjun wrote:
Radiant wrote:
Perhaps this debate can be resolved with an additional tag for movies like this, e.g. "requires non-standard controller"?
have fun searching for <+> or ^+v in every movie to add that tag
Couldn't a script do it?
Uh....sometimes, in my TAS's, I do that just because it showcases a minor visual glitch. Gl finding out which movie does this for fun and which is required.
if you really want to add that tag then it also has to be for the movies where it isn't required, since that's the rule then
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Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Skilled player
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I just want to add that executing controller registers has been verified on console with this unoptimized other method where it just executes a STP (stop processor) instruction and the result is perfect:
The music doesn't freeze (it runs on another processor).
The status bar disappears (the position isn't updated through IRQ anymore).
The game doesn't crash!
This movie also shows that a custom controller with 16 buttons can be created, since executing the STP requires extra button 0, 2 and 3.
The only open questions are if multitap works, if it is emulated correctly and if the Auto-Joypad update has a correct timing (as I said in the submission text, it is very very unstable).
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