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feos wrote:
I compared the 2 movies fight-by-fight and overall. Most fights last slightly longer in this version, by real-time. Gameplay looks very similar indeed, though in this run it's mostly 1 or 2 attacks, and the PSX run has more "variety". Probably that variety is due to worse manipulation.
I made gameplay-only clips for each fight:
https://yadi.sk/d/lozYC7RXK0Jh2Qhttps://yadi.sk/d/w_yN5bMzQnOhCw
Not sure what to do with these 2 runs, aside from setting an "official preference" on this version, since it has no loading times?
Note this version is also the original and apparently PSX version has some graphical issues. And I believe the "Variety" is indeed just worse optimization, as the author himself acknowledges.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I enjoyed this for the most part, but was a little offput by the lack of music. Any other thoughts?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Oh I see in the sidequests submission you did list all of them individually. Gonna take a little while to verify all of them.
EDIT: Unless somebody can provide a list of timestamps for all of them, that would be appreciated.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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User movie #63479847765337933: 243 frames ahead of the submitted file so far, with taking damage. I think at this point I'm invested in improving this.
Also I got this really dumb lucky time save that saves like 2 seconds:
Link to video
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I mean the old blast from the past run does have better ratings than all sidequests but I was wondering if there was anything deeper. I guess not.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I might have overestimated the amount of time lost from taking damage but to me the real problem is the potential for easy improvements. I didn't check that many spots but I feel there's a lot more potential.
EDIT: Arc wrote:
However, I believe that there are at least minor optimization flaws in the movie. For example, early in the game (starting at frame 4700), Rambo changes direction at an exit, goes left for a little while, changes direction again at the next exit, and walks right for a while. In the current movie, the black screen comes up at the end of this sequence on frame 5755. When I tried it, I knocked four frames off and the black screen came up on frame 5751. I believe this part is a genuine timesave rather than an intentional delay to change RNG. But the author is correct to note that enemy placement can be bothersome and cause delays.
I confirmed that this improvement doesn't actually change RNG at all and is another relatively free 4 frames saved.
EDIT 2: You can cancel the damage knockback animation by attacking, and cancel your attack by jumping, meaning that taking damage would in fact likely save quite a bit of time in a number of places.
EDIT 3: Example usage, saving 10 frames (but changes RNG so desync ahoy): User movie #63473280776366799
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I'd like to note that if avoiding damage doesn't cost too much time, it could still be accepted to vault in spite of being able to be obsoleted by a run that does take damage. However, if it is significant, or if there are other issues with the run, it would not be acceptable.
So far this TAS looks to me like it could have used a little more time being worked on.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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So first off, I thought the wall clips looked a tad slow. I found that it seemed like you can't drastically improve all of them, however I found this improvement of two frames. Simply by removing right input at frame 08108, you can move all later input two frames sooner. This syncs to the end. Additional improvements are likely possible.
Secondly, some people were proposing accepting this submission to Vault. If the tier is Vault, this submission becomes substantially sub-optimal as it intentionally avoids damage, even where it could save time. A movie that intentionally avoids damage as an artistic choice is acceptable for moons, but not for Vault.
EDIT: Some basic RAM Addresses
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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1. Don't use a mod. I think it's reasonable to call it "No Damage" if the only damage taken is required at the VERY end of the game. This is similar to the Swordless Zelda 1 challenge where one is required to get the sword towards the end of the game in order to actually defeat the final boss.
2. If an invulnerability powerup is active, you are by definition, not taking damage. If it was "no hits" run, then it might not be acceptable.
3. Can't say for certain whether or not people would find it entertaining. Only way to determine is through submission really.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Could one list each of the specific side quests done? Your previous all sidequests submission lists what qualifies as a sidequest but doesn't list all of them. And could somebody help verify that all these were performed in addition to the "blast from the past" objectives? It seems a bit hard without intimate game knowledge.
EDIT: Additionally, was there much discussion behind having [2300] Genesis Phantasy Star IV "all sidequests" by janus in 1:55:11.70 be obsoleted by [2335] Genesis Phantasy Star IV "all sidequests, Blast from the Past" by janus in 1:59:10.18? It's strange to me seeing a more standard category be obsoleted by one far more esoteric.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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This isn't what Arbitrary Code Execution means. Arbitrary code execution means finding a way to write and execute your own programming code in the game. It is not related at all to built in cheat codes.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Part of why there wasn't much feedback on the movie itself was probably due to the initial lack of encode. Without something to watch (easily, a lot of people don't bother with watching in the emulator), all they had was a time that appeared slower. Once one was made, I felt it best to draw attention to the submission. If nobody at all had replied after I asked, I would have simply felt more inclined to accept to Moons temporarily and wait for ratings to accumulate before it were to be reconsidered for Stars.
As for the potential improvements... well... they are only potential. I felt that the author's replies displayed substantial knowledge of both the game and of the other wips. As such, I felt this submission was sufficient to accept.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Does gameplay during clock stopped segments especially matter? Obviously you need to setup for the next phase of the fight if you have to knock them down and have them get back up, but could one theoretically drag this period out indefinitely?
EDIT: Side note, real time is considered inferior for this game as it would mean you would aim for easy KOs on a number of fights instead of TKOs since it'd involve Mario doing fewer counts. Notably Honda 2 you'd simply wait for the 1 minute mark and punch him once for an easy KO, and would be a significantly more trivial strategy.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I wish you the best sis.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Radiant wrote:
EZGames69 wrote:
as I said in the previous submission, I dont think this category feels any different to the published movie other than the fact that IGT is shorter but real time is longer. I'm voting no for entertainment.
I agree. This is basically in-game time vs real time, and as far as I can tell we haven't had separate branches for those since the IGT and RT branches for Metroid 2 got merged.
Nope. They both explicitly aim for ingame time. It's just one aims to manipulate the ingame time in a specific method that the other one bans.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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feos wrote:
It's meaningful because it gives an interesting piece of information: How fast can the game be completed theoretically, assuming perfect play?
Perfect play isn't how we measure movie quality. If you easily achieve perfect time in a trivial game, it's of the same quality as playing SMB in a sloppy, lazy way. I can't consider lazy play a meaningful record that you need TAS tools and skills for.
Maybe that's how we measure quality currently but I don't think that's the best approach.
----
One thing that hasn't really been brought up as far as I know is that just because the minimum amount of effort to create an optimal submission is considered low, that doesn't mean it is the maximum amount of effort one could put in. Take the recent Zool run. The author put additional effort into ensuring that the time was as fast as possible, even botting it. It just so happened that that was all there was left.
If people did like proper analysis of these so called "trivial" games, they might find something new. They might not. But I think there's value and meaning in that for sure.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Alyosha wrote:
Seems like there is a lot of room for differences of opinion here. Why not have feos judge one and Memory judge the other one?
Given that we are debating how tied the submissions are to each other, I think there is no real benefit to splitting judgment between us.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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To me it's incongruent with previous judgments that have been made.
For example, the version of Samurai Shodown II in [3739] Arcade Samurai Shodown II by NhatNM in 11:36.43 is near identical to the version in [2709] PSX Samurai Shodown II by NhatNM in 17:10.02. When I discussed it with you, you suggested that the fact that they were different platforms was enough to not warrant obsoletion.
Meanwhile here we have two games with differing rules, and yet we must only pick one or the other. These two games are far more different from each other than that previous example. This is why I feel there is a bias present. It makes little sense to me otherwise.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Why is one player used rather than two? In two player you are given separate control of the bottom paddle but you cannot move it vertically.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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What is iso checksum?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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To me those are the sort of differences that are significant enough to consider them different games but I think we might agree to disagree on this point.
EDIT: My view is partially derived from a distaste of certain biases in regards to sports games, some of them codified into the rules. They are treated as same-y simply due to sharing the same basic rules as the sports they are derived from. From a technical perspective they can be quite different from each other. It seems weird to me to apply this standard to sports games and not other similar games. In a way, isn't the goal of many platformers to head right? What about Tetris variants? It's just odd to me to single out sports games.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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DrD2k9 wrote:
Regarding productivity and practicality: if a superhuman TAS is judged to have such simple optimization that it's deemed trivial-to-make, then judgement shouldn't be that hard on whether it's optimized or not (and since we're talking about Vault, there's not reason to consider entertainment). Judgments would essentially be mere formality and shouldn't require much effort on the judge's part.
Judgment would still be far from a "mere formality".
We don't assume tiers, we consider tiers based on audience feedback and our own experience watching the TAS. Additionally we require some proof of sync (preferably syncing for both a judge and a publisher but this may not always be the case).
Personally I also try to be as personable as possible in my judgment notes. This requires a certain emotional state from me that I cannot just reproduce in mass. I would hate having some dull response prepared for bulk TASes.
The work that goes into publishing with is also nontrivial and not easy to speed up.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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And how do you align for control/accuracy in simple series?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I've personally felt conflicted in the past about this rule and its precise necessity. I believe that in an ideal world we would want to publish every game. However, that isn't practical. We have judges and publishers that are required to move the process along, so there is a need to limit what gets sent our way. From that, one of the most obvious subsets to limit is movies that have little effort put into them.
Additionally, a trivial record isn't just meaningless in the sense that there can be no competition. It is meaningless in that who set the record and therefore authorship doesn't matter. Anybody can create the inputs for a trivial movie.
Let's take Barney's Hide & Seek for an example. If left alone, the game will actually play and complete itself. The only required input to beat it is Power On.
Who came up with the TAS for that? The first person to submit? They didn't exactly come up with the inputs, power on is in the emulator by default. The emulator? The first person to ever play the game? The creators of the game?
When a movie requires effort to make, who made the movie becomes much simpler.
If one were to accept trivial records in order to merely document the fastest possible time, one would need to remove authorship or else one would run into a plethora of issues regarding attribution. This site is obviously not set up for that, nor do I know if anybody really wants that at this given time.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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How does shooting work? Is it the same between games?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
