Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Is there a method of converting between formats on the C64 itself?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
I give up, this game is far too frustrating. The entire process for this game just feels like trial and error with no real creativity to it. If anyone wants to pick it up where I left off, this is my WIP, completes through 4-2 but doesn't beat the RTA time on 4-2. Most of the best RTA times can be found here. 4-2 is only listed in the full game record though. If you need any help ask but otherwise I am done.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Once you finish, post it in this thread, I'll let you know if you should resubmit or if I will update the current submission.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
DrD2k9 wrote:
Memory wrote:
Just because we're unfortunately limited to illegitimate images, doesn't mean we should be modifying them further to be even more illegitimate...
For the sake of debate and trying to consider all perspectives: What makes one illegitimate image any more/less valid than another illegitimate image?
Well one is forced to be illegitimate due to lack of more legitimate images. One uses that original illegitimate image, and modifies it to be even further from the original release than before. In the event that somehow legitimate images were submitted, we would prefer them over all illegitimate images.
EDIT: So qualitatively, this image is illegitimate in two ways instead of one.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
*Admittedly, the conversion of one image format to another, is a type of hacking/modification of the original data.
*The vast majority of Commodore 64 games available for TASing are already cracked/modified versions.
*This particular type of modification only serves to impact non-game-related aspects of a TAS.
*Therefore, I see the conversion (which minimizes the boring loading phases) as an acceptable modification of the original game images and should be acceptable for publication to any tier.
Just because we're unfortunately limited to illegitimate images, doesn't mean we should be modifying them further to be even more illegitimate...
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Cyorter wrote:
I have a doubt about a movie rule I read but didn't understand it clearly.
I'm attempting to obsolete a movie made by another user, but that current movie (for now e-e) is really helping me sometimes with some tricks, the other 50% of times is completely original input.
I read that if I copy some chunks of gameplay it can be credited, I got it, but I don't exactly copy the input, that current movie just let me know some of useful tricks for the TAS and then I do the tricks for myself.
Sooo... if you get tricks based of a movie by other user it must be credited as a co-author? Even if I don't exactly copy the input to my WIP.
I saw a submission that credits another user by something similar than this, but I'm not sure if I must do
Here's the WIP for let you understand better of what I'm trying to say (see Stage 5 specially)
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/49520731692274216
Maybe... any contribution of any kind that helps some way must be credited... Idk xDD
You don't need to make anybody that contributes tricks a co-author unless you really want to.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
This run uses the inputs from that run for the first 90 seconds.
Why?
EDIT: Shouldn't you include that person as a coauthor?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
If you were paying attention a few months ago, he did release a WIP of world 1 and 2. Those beat this TAS by 1 minute 12 seconds as of right now.
How long do you think it will take for that TAS to be completed?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
If the boss takes the same amount of time to die on hard, I think I'd prefer you do it on hard if only because of the ironic ending text. Let me know if this is in the cards.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Warp wrote:
This especially since allowing extra CDs would make the run non-console-verifiable.
I mean theoretically if you time the disc swap frame perfectly it would still be console-verifiable. It's a problem with multi-disc games as well and I see no reason to restrict those.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Spikestuff wrote:
Sorry. Someone's going to have to explain to me why Sonic is there.
Sonic is slower when you're' aiming for IGT (which it's marked as such) than not aiming for it.
Aims for ingame time is not a class that is ineligible for this list.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
This flag doesn't have any impact on our existing rules. Things like language are already covered by the rules.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Something relevant to bring up is that this game appears to require usage of the CDs for full completion. So there must be at least one branch in which this must be accepted.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
OK so as the person that actually TASed Metroid Prime Hunters and is actually involved in that community...
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
"all items" : the full-completion defined by the community.
This is NOT true. Sure it involves collection of all items but if you notice, it's explicitly not labelled 100% and is not considered full completion by the community. Additionally in a TAS setting, all items might not be different enough from any% to warrant its own branch even if it doesn't require scanning.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
[16:33:47] <feos> x also trades every upgrade for drugs between every game
[16:33:49] <TotallyFerret_> Dies in the veryh first, that didn't stick.
[16:34:14] <Mothrayas> but people still consider zero out of commission a better ending than zero not out of commission, just because x gets his kickass saber
[16:34:15] <Dacicus> feos :(
[16:34:16] <TotallyFerret_> It was sad. We all cried for someone with three lines.
[16:34:28] <MemoryTAS> ...What kind of drugs do robots use
[16:34:43] <TotallyFerret_> Special capacitors.
[16:34:49] <feos> MemoryTAS: forgot how they look
[16:34:56] <Dacicus> bolts?
[16:35:03] <feos> in some megaman games they look like bolts
[16:35:11] <Mothrayas> bolts is how they inject them, which is why they're currency in half the games
[16:35:29] <MemoryTAS> Oh so you mean the E-Tanks and stuff?
[16:35:35] <Dacicus> Hm, wait, maybe the energy capsules?
[16:35:48] <Mothrayas> energy capsules are like red bull cans
[16:35:56] <Mothrayas> not drugs, just they keep you going
[16:35:58] <feos> e-tanks might CONTAIN the drugs, but you lose e-tanks between games as well
[16:36:18] <feos> so I guess we simply can't know
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:37:13] <Dacicus> Maybe Mega is hallucinating that he gets the robot masters' weapons? He's just on a drug-fueled killing spree...
[16:38:10] <Mothrayas> killing people with imaginary sawblades sounds pretty badass
[16:40:34] <Dacicus> and zipping is another perceptual disturbance
[16:40:50] <Mothrayas> when you're literally spacing out through space
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
In the mentioned movie, the player catches all Pokémon species, which is considered as the sole full completion requirement, since the game keeps track and awards the player with an unique congratulation message for having filled all Pokédex entries.
However, if we disregard goals that are proposed by the game itself, we end up with a lot of other things that could be considered as permanent upgrades: The Key Items can be obtained only once, and can't be removed from the player's inventory in any way. Same can be said for the trainer fights: once a trainer is beaten you can't fight them again, which is indeed a permanent game progress. In my opinion these are examples of self-imposed arbitrary goals, since the game does not keep track or award the player in any way for having achieved them.
This is not Pokemon. Pokemon only visibly tracks the Pokedex. This game VISIBLY tracks far more than defeating death. Full completion is to be determined on a per game basis rather than applying nonsensical precedents to cases that it does not match.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
I extremely disagree with the label applied here.
Lets go over this:
Full completion is usually recognized by the fact that a game features optional challenges or requirements, and that clearing them results in the game awarding the player with a different ending cutscene, a different ending message, or simply by displaying a full percentage gauge.
A clear consensus is required on what constitutes full-completion.
Some games reward the player for something internally defined as full completion.
Sometime full completion requirements are explicitly mentioned in the game manual.
Conditions that are imposed unofficially by players and do not originate from fundamental game-play features are considered arbitrary and are not eligible
I'd quite argue that these conditions do originate from fundamental game-play features. The definition given basically includes every permanent upgrade to the character and to the game world. It does not explicitly state that requirements must be explicitly listed in the game itself, nor should it.
This to me feels like blindly applying the rules without actually thinking of the consequences. If I had to choose between labeling both this and Chrono Trigger as Completionist, or 100%, I would choose to label both as 100%, even though Chrono Trigger is really silly. Completionist is NOT a term that people recognize in this context and therefore is USELESS to anyone aside from the pedantic.
This is exactly the kind of movie people tend to think of when they think of full completion. If our rules suggest otherwise, than our rules are broken and need to be fixed.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
This game is not badly made because it does not fit to TASVideos standards. It is simply an augmented reality game where the purpose is to integrate play between the game itself and reality. With this rule as it is, I do worry about other augmented reality games which may have nonstandard input methods which would potentially be rejected from vault.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
I found potential improvements to lag optimization. I'll try optimizing the whole TAS and see what I get. If I end up saving time I will upload the file. It seems likely I will be able to save time currently but we will see.
EDIT: First screen improvement of 19 frames: User movie #49350907362323667
EDIT 2: Of note, jumping can frequently reduce lag and needs to be explored more thoroughly.
I also have questions about a section later on where you intentionally slow down but I'll look into that later.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
I've found a lot of improvements in the platforming segment so far, so far totaling up to 34 frames of timesave. I think there is more improvement to be found but here is what I have so far: User movie #49331184582703152
I based the file off of the original submission so if you want to change the last jump feel free to do so but I think additional actual improvements can be made on it regardless. If you want to improve on it yourself, be my guest. Otherwise I guess I could look into it myself.
EZGames69 wrote:
Why does this feel like an educational game?
It's not, it just has an Adventure game segment at the start. Adventure games are not the same thing as educational.
EDIT: Address table: http://tasvideos.org/Addresses-123.html
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
feos wrote:
So far I don't know any other game (or game series) that'd explicitly ask for irrelevant images. Within this exceptional case, validity and reproducibility should indeed be tested. But for all the other games, I believe the rule about image integrity will stand.
My point was more in regards to any nonstandard thing a game may ask for that is somehow emulated properly. Might not be explicitly disc images.
EDIT: For example augmented reality type games like Treasure World which is heavily dependent on the DS picking up WiFi signals or Face Raiders which requires the usage of the 3DS camera to take pictures of faces to add to enemies. These might not be TASable at the moment but the potential is still there.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
So I pretty much agree with most of feos's suggestion. However if we were to treat this like a save anchored movie, in that case it makes sense to hold external images up to similar standards as such. We require saves-anchored movies to be accompanied by movie files to generate said saves. In order to ensure validity and prevent any arbitrary or potentially malicious images, I would like any external images required to run the TAS to be independently verified. I would like the process to generate such an image to be required to be properly documented and able to be independently replicated. Validity is a key concern to TASVideos and I want that to be of prime concern even with handcrafted images. Omnigamer has luckily provided us with a fair amount of documentation regarding the series so this should be doable.
If we follow such a principle I believe this would allow us to expand the ruling behind this exception to other potential unique scenarios that require things besides the intended game image for running the game. If a TAS requires something beyond the intended game image and the game intends to be played with such, then it should be reasonable to require documentation as to how such would be incorporated.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
Soig wrote:
Memory wrote:
How hard would it be to implement Hartman's improvement?
Very easy. I'll improve it tonight:)
Nice! I really enjoyed the run by the way!
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1524)
Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1763
Location: Dumpster
How hard would it be to implement Hartman's improvement?
boct1584 wrote:
Skipping World 6 by having a specific powerup at the end of World 5 is not "Warpless" to me. Not voting.
Would skipping World 4 and World 7 by not having the specific powerups at the ends of Worlds 2 and 5 also not be Warpless? Seems like an incredibly silly complaint to me.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
While it has its moments, imo NSMB Wii isn't anything that special compared to other platformers in the tier.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
