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"Early"
I don't think it actually counts as completion if you trigger that.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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p4wn3r wrote:
Besides, I really don't see what is abusive about sending a PM to some people asking "It was alleged that you voted on this submission to degrade the author. Is this true?".
I'll be completely honest. If I was falsely accused of this, I would feel rather threatened and not welcome. It means that if I don't like something that somebody else likes, I'm automatically assumed of being biased against the author. I would rather good faith be assumed except in the overwhelming case to the contrary.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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HappyLee wrote:
feos wrote:
What's with this decision to skip questions from staff about your suggestions to staff, HappyLee?
I'm sorry, but I really don't know what you're talking about...
feos wrote:
HappyLee wrote:
I think maybe under circumstances like this, some administrator should come up and say something like: "People, place your votes seriously, and don't let your feelings take over the facts" (except I can't express it well).
Which circumstances exactly?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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p4wn3r wrote:
The situation is extremely easy to solve. When HappyLee canceled the submission, say something like "it has reached us that the submitter canceled the submission in protest regarding the validity of the No/Meh votes. Given that this submission has received an unusual amount of negative votes, we decided to investigate. Upon consultation with the No voters, we received the response that they would have preferred a more minimalistic approach to the levels than the ones provided here. Although troubling, we did not find any conclusive evidence of voting guideline violation. We ask that the users vote based on the merits of the movie and not on previous events and ask the submitter to reconsider the cancellation in view of these facts.", and that's it, no drama, no bans.
This to me is the definition of a witch hunt:
Merriam Webster's wrote:
: the searching out and deliberate harassment of those (such as political opponents) with unpopular views
Why specifically the "No/Meh" voters, why not the "Yes" voters?
EDIT: AranJaegar: It seems clear to me that it clearly means "support the notion that the movie is entertaining" given that the question asks about entertainment. There is no inherent meaning to "Support" that it automatically refers to acceptance.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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"Do you think this movie should be accepted?" is absolutely NOT the point of the poll. That is the judge's role to decide, not so much the average viewer. We use how entertaining a movie is to decide what tier to accept to, and that is typically ascertained by asking the audience. A movie might not be acceptable for other reasons beyond entertainment.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I don't disagree with the assertion that with the question phrased as it is currently, "meh" is a bit of a weird answer. While it does not exactly answer the question directly as one would expect, it provides a little bit of information that is actually distinct from that of a yes or no vote. If anything I would prefer just simply rephrasing the question or rephrasing "meh".
I don't think polls are completely useless either, despite being potentially difficult to interpret. You just need to be able to figure out how the pieces fit together.
p4wn3r wrote:
But, seriously, either abolish anonymous voting or simply don't put the poll at all. In the original thread (which had some parts grued with a nonsensical title implying that you cannot detect manipulation using statistics), people drew parallels between TASing and arts. Well, art critics do sign their reviews, and they eventually get sued or fired if they write inappropriate stuff.
The difference there is... to put it bluntly... those critics are being paid. On sites like Rotten Tomatoes where users can leave ratings, regular users are not required to have their name publicly displayed with their score unless they make a review. In the event that there is actual abuse going on, certain staff members are able to view who made what votes and take action accordingly.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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It would be preferred that existing improvements be shared. I'm not necessarily asking you to do this mtvf1, but it would probably be best for klmz to do it. I'm not going to base a judgment off of an input file that is not accessible to the public when there are 0 details given as to the actual content of this movie and any improvements therein. It's not fair to any people making submissions if such improvements were hidden.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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TASeditor wrote:
User movie #47614647209221382
About 20f faster after first boost, most from better acceleration at the start of the stage. I need to delay some frames hitting the flower to hit the enemy, loosing 9px.
Doesn't sync for me currently. If you did this on fceux I can just work with the original fceux file and convert anything manually. Apparently it syncs on QuickNES and not NESHawk, really wish that the conversion process created proper metadata.
Also found out that the smiley faces cause lag so it needs to be timed whether or not each smiley saves time against the countdown at the end of the stage.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Going to be working on a TAS with Vilsol I think. The game uses similar mechanics to the PCE version but has different stage layouts. I think the one difference between mechanics is that you don't maintain horizontal speed from a damage boost.
EDIT:
User movie #47599133190400309Link to video
There is the possibility for a hover off the first crocodile to save time but I haven't managed it yet, so far I lose all my savings at the 2nd flower boost.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I will update after all improvements are implemented.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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So I noticed you spent a long while at the corner of the ledge on the first screen, so I took a look to see if I could avoid spending so much time there:
I could and saved 13 frames in the process.
This is after only a couple minutes of testing so it is very likely that more time can come off this.
I saw some other cases where the TAS gets stuck on corners and stuff like in the water stages. If you could address these cases and my improvement, it would be appreciated. I'm willing to work with you on an improvement if you would like.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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mtvf1 wrote:
Memory wrote:
This got brought up because of a question as to whether #5977: link_7777 & EZGames69's NES City Connection "warpless" in 04:35.60 should be labeled as warpless. In this instance, it could be argued that it is "Warpless" only incidentally since Warps are slower. Or it could be argued that it is a goal that is being aimed at.
Did you not watched Takanawa's tas?
Warp is 2min faster in this game. If not use "Warpless", this movie shouldn't be published.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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There was some confusion as to what qualifies as finishing the game and whether or not this run should be labeled as Warpless.
It has been decided that beating the sixth stage layout is considered beating the game. Stage backgrounds and in between level cutscenes appear to be completely independent of stage number. When one uses a warp, it only increments to the next stage, but may use a completely different background and cutscene than that of play without warps. Because of this we cannot truly consider beating Tokyo as beating the game, since what Tokyo may be is not consistent. The layout of the stage on the other hand is consistent to stage number. There are only 6 truly unique stage layouts, the next ones being variants of the first 6 with platforms shifted. Therefore we will qualify passing the 6th stage as completing the game. The movie by Takanawa does not beat the 6th stage, but only completes up to the 5, therefore it does not qualify as beating the game.
What qualifies warps as being significant enough to label is the amount of gameplay content potentially skipped. It does not matter that warps cause long animations, what we care about here is the amount of in-level content. If warps have the potential to drastically reduce the amount of in-level content, then it is considered to be worth labeling. Additionally, warps are explicitly suggested by the game as a feature, even being mentioned in the manual. Therefore this run should be labelled Warpless.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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klmz wrote:
It won't help with the fact that the term "Meh" means "I don't care" in daily language contradicts the usage for a "Mediocre" option, and I am pretty sure that there have been existing "Meh" votes used according to their literal meaning.
A dictionary wrote:
adjective:
not impressive : so-so
a meh documentary
really not that out there of a definition
The usefulness of votes as a whole is certainly not very much but there's nothing explicitly bad about the meh option in particular.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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klmz wrote:
pirate_sephiroth wrote:
nope. the definition of boycot is "to refuse to buy a product or take part in an activity as a way of expressing strong disapproval"
So if one wants to boycott a submission they would just comment without voting or simply ignore the thread completely.
"Meh" is not a logically sensible answer to the question "Did you find this movie entertaining?". By voting "Meh" the voter still abstains from the poll, just ironically using the same facility as the participants use.
I vote meh to say the movie was only somewhat entertaining. Not to say that I don't care. This is how most people I know use "meh" as well.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
In response to this, I would like to make sure a clear definition is made for what a "warp" is. Once we have that definition, then we can establish when it may or may not be considered significant enough to form a new branch.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Thing is with Super Mario Bros., Warps walkathon will almost certainly never obsolete warpless walkathon. The latter shows off more content and is therefore viewed as more impressive. The goal of that TAS is entertainment. If one could interchangeably use Warps or Warpless without sacrificing entertainment, should the label be updated every time the movie is obsoleted? That is effectively my question.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I forgot to brought this up, in case it matters. While this submission that doesn't use warps has a time of 04:35.6, there exists a TAS that does use warps that gets a time of 04:41.04. I could very easily foresee warps runs becoming faster than warpless, if faster warping methods were found. Then if faster ways of completing levels were found, warpless could become faster again. I don't see avoiding warps as a defining feature of this TAS as a result.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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The rules currently state ""When a run aims for showcasing internal goals of the game, each goal needs to be put in the label."
My question: When is it considered that a run aims to showcase an internal goal of the game? When does a run showcase an internal goal of the game, but it is not the aim?
For example why no label for 1 Player for Super Mario Bros. but a label for warps? They're both considered internal goals.
This got brought up because of a question as to whether #5977: link_7777 & EZGames69's NES City Connection "warpless" in 04:35.60 should be labeled as warpless. In this instance, it could be argued that it is "Warpless" only incidentally since Warps are slower. Or it could be argued that it is a goal that is being aimed at.
I don't have a strong opinion either way but would like a guideline to help decide when such things are considered the aim of the movie.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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McHazard, are you still working on this?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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There's a bunch of things I have questions about so if you could write a detailed description of certain things you did throughout the TAS in the submission text, it would be appreciated. For example you bonked the ground in a couple spots and I'm wondering why.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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EZGames69 wrote:
with the recent discussion going on in the OoT thread, I think now's a good time to ask this question.
So I'm working on an "All Bosses" category for The Addams Family on SNES. playing casually you would have to defeat all bosses that reward you with family members. when you have all members saved, there's a small cut scene in a one room that plays a little song, then the door that prevents you from going to the end opens up. this allows you to travel to the final boss in the game.
In the any% TAS, the char clips through the gate that prevents them from going there early. shown here: https://youtu.be/Zoeuia2c4Kg?t=36s
I plan on doing this trick in "all bosses" but the thought came to me that I'm probably doing a task that doesn't even help me reach the end of the game if I'm just going to skip the door, that would otherwise prevent me from doing so. This might make the idea of doing all bosses pointless.
So my question is, is it prefered if I wait for that door to open up or would it be OK to clip through the door rather than waiting for the door to open?
if you need refrence at what that cutscene actually is, here's the timestamp to the longplay at 57:15:
https://youtu.be/HL4WfcpZT6M?t=57m15s
As far as I know, there is nothing in the rules against this. I see no reason to necessarily require you to use the reward given by completing an ingame goal. Assuming you are not using memory corruption or ACE to cause the game to think you have killed the bosses without actually having done so, this should be fine.
EDIT: I believe there is precedence for this as well: Castlevania Portrait of Ruin All Bosses fights Brauner and opens up the end of the game long before fighting any of the intended prerequisite bosses for example.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Nowhere did I say straight up bashing, false accusations of cheating, etc. were ok. HOWEVER, I do think there may be validity in some of the criticisms that were made. It does feel that a lot of the previous SMB Warpless runs have been similar. They almost always "do everything" and try to wait until the very last frame of the frame rule. My question is... is it possible to implement some of these suggestions in a way to improve the work as art?
Maybe only some of the stages kill everything and others, spare some. Or not even harm a single enemy in some levels. Maybe some stages you delay hitting the flagpole without missing the frame rule and others you hit it as soon as possible.
The best way to implement this would be to make it into a story arc. The story of this TAS is more or less: "Mario the Musical Mass Murderer". The story of the MrWint TAS was "Mario's really in a rush and doesn't care about anything else". What if you try to deliberately have an evolving story through a TAS? What if Mario starts out killing everything in sight but starts to feel sorry for his enemies and start to spare them? What if he comes as close to killing them as possible without actually doing it, in order to strike fear into them, Batman style? Or what about the other way around? What if Mario starts out trying to not harm enemies, but slowly becomes more cynical, resorting to killing?
What if Mario was in a real rush at first, but started to slow down because he feared Bowser? Or if he wasn't extremely rushed at first, but felt as the adventure went on that it was more and more urgent to rescue Princess Peach?
What if Mario slowly learned how to use his abilities to create music rather than from the getgo?
HappyLee: I believe you stated you wanted to create the perfect Mario movie. If that is TRULY your goal, you should you be glad to receive criticism, even if it seems small, because criticism provides a chance to make an even better TAS as a form of art.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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hopper wrote:
Memory wrote:
hopper wrote:
Don't like the way the waste-able frames were wasted? Make a better run. Voting based on your opinion of one of its authors? Grow up. Have anything else irrelevant to say? Keep it to yourself.
I'd like to say that requiring everyone who criticizes a work to make something better themselves is not being receptive to criticism. You don't have to be the cook to criticize the food. I would like to believe that the point of the workbench is provide constructive criticism to submissions, though replies like these unfortunately show that some users do not wish this to be the case.
Hold on there! I'm not trying to suppress helpful suggestions. Just remember that there's a line between a helpful suggestion and petty nitpicking. There's no question that this run is publishable because it's an improvement to an existing run. The entertainment factor is only going to determine tier. The current run is Moons, so this run would have to be noticeably less entertaining to not be Moons. As everyone was/is/should be aware, there's a 21-frame rule in SMB, so up to 20 frames are lost at the end of every level. You can rush to the end and just let them tick away, or you can use them to improve entertainment. This run chooses the latter approach. As a very small portion of the run, you would think that this wouldn't impact the tier, so I would expect the tone of the conversation about it to be commensurate to its importance -- basically, a trivial aside. How are there pages of debate about the merits of an auto-publishable run? This should be uncontroversial, but I see people complaining about the way the frame rule frames were used -- and yes, I'm using the word complaining, as opposed to "helpfully suggesting". By all means, make a helpful suggestion! Some people seem to have a compulsive need to find fault, while others seem to be making this personal. That ruins the fun for everyone -- especially the people who worked hard to make the run. I'm really just asking people to be civil and objective.
And yes, if you absolutely can't live with a TASer's artistic decisions, make something better!
The question at the top of the page asks the viewer if they found the movie entertaining. It does not ask if the viewer thinks the movie is entertaining to a variety of people nor it does not ask what tier they think it belongs to. Some people may find it not entertaining for seemingly trivial or even personal reasons. Separation of art and artist may be seen as ideal to some but as far as I know is not an explicit requirement for voting. The question of the poll does not care what your reason is, as long as you express your opinion.
Now, some people were upset at the amount of no and meh votes this run received. Even worse, assumptions were made as to the reasoning behind said votes. This effectively called out all of the no/meh voters, even if they did not vote for the assumed reasons. As such, people expressed their opinions and reasons on why they liked or disliked the run. To some these reasons may seem trivial. Others, not so much. Calling said reasons trivial however is devaluing them entirely.
Now while not all reasons are strong enough to change the tiering, I see little reason to say that these reasons cannot be constructive. Such artistic choices may legitimately annoy viewers. A Super Mario 64 run was heavily criticized in the past for its choice of camera angles. Can this be seen as trivial to some? Certainly. But future TASes avoided said camera angles in the future and afaik there haven't been complaints about it since. It ultimately ended up being constructive criticism after all.
Now given all of this, if one puts a lot of effort into a project and results in people that dislike it, one should try to avoid being upset about this. We all put a lot of effort into our projects but this doesn't make the projects immune to criticism, even of the most minute variety. One should at least be open to criticism, no matter how "trivial". Assuming bad faith is not a valid reply to these replies in my opinion. If I got the same set of votes and criticisms that this run got, I would be ecstatic! They mean that a lot of people have watched my run and a lot of people enjoyed it!
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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feos wrote:
So let's talk about the glitch used here to get the medallions. I was told that it can easily be considered a major skip glitch, without it the run with the same goals would be more than twice as long.
Recently there was a common decision at tasvideos to forbid memory corruption, ACE, and some other glitches from "full completion" actions.
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#FullCompletionRules
Note that all these techniques can still be used throughout the whole run, they just can not be used for things that represent full completion requirements. For example, in a Super Metroid 100% run, you can activate ACE and use it to speed you up, but not for writing the items into your inventory without actually collecting them, and not for displaying the false item count percentage in the end.
So I want to ask, do we want other goals that form branches to also forbid such techniques, not just "full completion"?
For example, do we want to consider a legit TAS a run of Super Metroid aiming for "100% map" that simply uses ACE to color all the map as visited, while only visiting, say, a single room for real?
Or do we want Contra: Hard Corps "best ending" to go the "secret ending" route instead, and then glitch the game into showing us the best ending?
Or do we want Tetris "fastest 999999" to glitch the game into showing that score instead of actually obtaining it in-game?
I think that any goal that forms the TAS branch should be accomplished for real, instead of tricking the game into thinking it was accomplished. And I think the exception should be demonstrating the glitchy technique itself, like "box glitch" in Crash Bandicoot.
If we agree on such a rule, it becomes clear that this run doesn't aim to collect all the medallions. It just showcases a glitch that tricks the game into thinking they have been collected. Something like "all medallions glitch". Or "item glitch". You name it.
I feel it should at the very least be a guideline because usually this kind of thing really hurts entertainment and cheapens the experience so to speak.
"Box glitch" etc. are usually fastest completion, a variant of fastest completion with a restriction, or ACE playarounds. I'd have a hard time seeing movies where the only goal is to demonstrate a suboptimal glitch be seen as different enough to warrant a separate branch as opposed to fastest completion with a restriction (EDIT: note that the branch doesn't need to be labeled with the restriction, it can be implied as well) or completing some ingame goal.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
