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I'm beginning to look into this game for TASing and have already found a number of helpful addresses. I'm also relatively familiar with developments made in the game over the past year in the RTA community.
However, there was a out of bounds trick found a long time ago that would save a significant amount of time that would allow you to collect the volt driver early. Problem is that this currently leads into a dead end.
The trick is here:
Link to video
I've managed this a few times myself, but the problem is that there is currently no way back out.
The game has a number of places you can get out of bounds through damaging yourself with charged missiles, but no oob has been found within the center area yet.
The game has a checkpoint system, but as far as I can tell, there are no checkpoints you can activate in that room after getting volt driver.
I'll work on tasing this regardless of whether the skip was found, but this would occur relatively early in the run, so if it gets found, I'd rather it be sooner than later.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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jlun2 wrote:
1. Not your fault, but I almost wanted to ignore this TAS due to the all caps title since I thought it was a troll if not for the detailed submission text.
I wasn't sure on how to write the name of the game considering that was how it was capitalized on the cart, the box, pretty much everything official that I'm able to look at. I wasn't sure whether to include the subtitle Tales of the Tohunga, since it wasn't on the box or anything. It could have been like in product listings but idk.
jlun2 wrote:
2. I had absolutely no idea what's going on most of the time, but seeing the player get flung all over the place was nice.
To be honest that's the best reaction I could really hope for.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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So vibex and I have broken this game on sda over the past few weeks (thread here) and I decided to start working on a tas of the game.
There are a number of weird glitches and techniques in the game:
Curve jumping:
Link to video
The video first demonstrates how it would be done in tas, then how it would be done in real time (doable real time without buffering apparently).
You curve a long jump which is normally in a straight direction by hitting the direction in which you want to go, then hitting the direction you want to jump in, and hitting the jump button. The later you hit the jump button after switching directions on the dpad, the weaker the curve will be.
The inputs for the first jump in the video are right -> up + b.
Boundary/wall hopping:
Link to video
You can do short hops along walls (which I define as things you cannot long jump into) and along the boundaries of the screen by doing short hops (neutral dpad + b) facing into the wall. When you short jump into a boundary or a wall you will land there if and only if you jump in a direction that is heading into the collision. This means perpendicularly or from an angle. However, if you are jumping parallel to the direction of the collision where you land, you will fall.
This is important for a number of skips.
Launcher Mechanics:
Link to video
The launcher fires a projectile that latches onto objects/enemies. When activated it either pulls you towards them, or pulls them towards you, depending on the object/enemy. If it pulls you towards them and it is an object you can fly over, you will go flying further past it the further back you start. Moreover, you can change your flight path by holding a direction before you activate the projectile. I call this "orbiting" because you will go in circles around the object.
Launcher state glitch:
Link to video
Puts you in a weird state where the targeting reticule is present and you can use other items and actions. It allows you to cancel health upgrade animations and death animations.
Object/Enemy Teleporting:
Link to video
Whenever you drag an enemy/object into you, for whatever reason the coordinates of the collision are stored. If you then fire the launcher at an object/enemy, quickly press and hold the launcher button again before the projectile is fired, then run into the object/enemy, it will get teleported to the coordinates of what you had dragged into you. Even if it was on a previous screen, it will get teleported to matching coordinates on the current screen.
Setting up coordinates for a teleport launch:
Link to video
Teleport Launch:
Link to video
When an object/enemy is teleported, it sometimes leaves what I call residual collision. This seems to happen when running into the upper half of the enemy's collision. What you can do with this is that you can fire the launcher at it and the projectile will go to wherever the enemy was teleported. This means you can setup huge flings like the one in the video, but you HAVE to set up the coordinates from somewhere, limiting it's use.
Plant teleport:
Link to video
The plant enemy will grab you if you get too close. However, this can be taken advantage of. If you do the final step of the teleport inputs while inside the plant with neutral input, you will get teleported along with the plant.
A proof of concept tas I made of the intro section
I didn't use any form of memory watch due to my inexperience at tasing. Last time I tried my hand at it, I got caught up with that, and got burned out. I wouldn't be surprised if this was improvable. Unless somebody else helps me with that, I don't plan on using it for this tas.
I will likely post major discoveries in both here and the sda thread, meanwhile I will only post minor discoveries there, and tas updates here.
EDIT: Only if interest is shown, otherwise I'll just upload progress to my youtube and whatever.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Out of curiosity, do the mario advance games boot into mario bros in a similar fashion?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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endrift wrote:
If people think it might be useful, I could add a way in mGBA to trap the syscall that causes the game to reset so that A) a savestate can be taken and B) a backtrace can be discovered to see what's causing this.
Based on what has been said so far in the thread, my guess is that high jumping on a barrel always causes the game to reset (or crash on not pc emulator). Somewhere along the line, the bit changed to the value you mentioned. So the problem would be finding what causes the bits to change to that value correct? Would your addition help with this?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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MUGG wrote:
Nice find, I will look forward to your further testing.
Using the US version, in VBA and Bizhawk I've only been able to make the game reset itself at best.
This might be specific to the VC version so please do test on GBA/NDS/GB Player. I would like to try too but I'm afraid I haven't been active in this game for a while so I don't know how to make Mario into a barrel (this might not be possible in both VBA and Bizhawk btw iirc due to an emulation problem).
To make mario into a barrel, you need sign glitch. Video of this being done in all bosses (JP gb player): www.twitch.tv/altabiscuit/c/5375105?t=2h04m57s
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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For the record, the only confirmed difference between playing wii and gamecube for this game is that the original version occasionally crashes in a couple rooms on gamecube, but not on wii. Later versions of the game, PAL and NTSC 0-02, have a slower loader, likely to fix this issue. They will not crash in these rooms on gamecube.
http://www.metroid2002.com/other_crash_chozo_elevator.phphttp://www.metroid2002.com/other_crash_furnace.php
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
When you use an dusty GC and a disk with scratches and shit smeared on it, it would be clear that your loading times aren't the best anymore.
I assume the loading times in Dolphin are based on flawless GCs and disks.
First, you're missing the point. Of course a middle path would probably be faster in this scenario. I'm just illustrating how the game works and how loads change strategies.
Secondly, itspersonnal is far from the only person to say that dolphin's load times are still inaccurate. Miles has been playing Metroid Prime on dolphin quite a bit with his work on randomizer, and he notices the difference as well.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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My point is that anyone TASing the game should be aware of how the load times matter. 2 seconds is big enough to make a difference in all of the scenarios I posted.
Did you try comparing emu to console with the artifact temple load time? It's long enough to be able to tell if there are any differences. All you need to be able to get to it is missiles.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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RachelB wrote:
Dolphin's load times are pretty accurate to an actual gamecube, and have been for a while now. I highly doubt any difference, if any, will be significant enough to affect strategies for anything.
EDIT: I was actually quoting a post from 2 months ago, I wasn't expecting itspersonnal to repost that. I was in the middle of responding when I went to go eat dinner.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Ok so a bunch of people seem to be misinterpreting my statement about running the game. There are differences between console and emulator strategies that have to do with load times. You would come to an understanding of this concept if you had experience with console running, but there is a misinterpretation of what I was implying. In addition, I'm not saying stop the tas until emulator loads are accurate, I'm saying to be aware of the difference in strategies that result from it.
So most people who play this game probably think that console loads are erratic and that you shoot the door to load the next room.
This is not how the game works.
For the following scenarios, I'm making up numbers here.
Look at this scenario:
So in this game you go from one room to the next. One would think that the left path is obviously faster because it gets to the next door sooner.
This is Metroid Prime though.
How rooms in metroid prime load is that there are invisible loading triggers placed in the room. The next room will start loading as soon as you touch the next loading trigger. Ok, I recall shooting the door and being in close proximity to the door will also load the next room, but this is usually not the most effective method of loading rooms unless you are oob and only if the load times are short. Usually the loading trigger encompasses all inbounds paths to the door. The door will open when the following conditions are met:
1) the room finished loading
2) you shot/bombed the door
If you shoot the door before the next room is loaded, the door shield will disappear, but the door will remain shut until the next room has loaded. Thus perceived differences in console load times actually are the result in touching the loading triggers at different times. The actual difference in console load times is relatively small.
Unlike most games, you have control over your character when the game is loading. This leads to some interesting strategies.
Now take a look at our scenario again, but with loading triggers taken into account:
This is huge. This completely changes the strategy here. The right path touches the loading trigger sooner, so that the next room is fully loaded sooner, and you can leave the room sooner than if you went the left path.
However, emulator has shorter load times than console (again, I'm making up numbers here):
This is not the only way this affects strategies.
Look at this scenario:
So there is a scan point by the door. If the doors opened instantly, it might not be worth it to face the scan point and do a dash off of it. However, they don't. If you were not able to control your character when the game is loading, it would also not be worth it. But this is not the case.
As you can see, doing a dash off of the scan target would cost no time with console loads in this scenario.
However, with emulator loads:
It is no longer quite as advantageous.
In TAS, you can build up speed by doing that bunnyhop/r-jump thing itspersonnal mentioned earlier. So therefore, even if its a straight hallway with nothing in it, the strategy still can differ with varying load times.
Look at this scenario:
This scenario is similar to going from Temple Lobby to Artifact Temple. Artifact Temple takes a really long time to load on console. In addition, there are no scan points or anything else in Temple Lobby. I don't know if its 20 seconds on console and 5 seconds on emu or what. I just made up a bunch of numbers. Emu load times are shorter though, and that is what matters for this demonstration. I also don't know the exact size of the loading triggers.
Now normally, you would sit around and wait for the door to open in a run, then boost through it. With TAS tools, you can probably do better than that. There is no sideways speedcap in this game, and therefore the goal in this scenario should be to build up as much speed while waiting for the door to open as possible
Idea on how to do this with console loads:
Now emulator has shorter loading times therefore, emulator has less time to build up speed. Emulator would use this sort of strategy instead:
You would end up in the next room with less speed.
There are a bunch of weird cases that I don't feel like going over because I just wrote a really long post.
Please don't ignore what I'm saying just because I'm saying it and I did a stupid thing. I did kinda do a stupid thing. But please understand this concept. Its absolutely essential.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I admit, I probably worded some stuff badly in that post. And probably lost my focus. And a whole bunch of other things. You're taking one post I made and acting as though I'm declaring war. I'm not.
Also quoting this before it gets lost in the mess:
itsPersonnal wrote:
gotta have the last word I guess! (not really I just had starting writing this before a lot of the above posts and it's worth posting).
Dude, their TAS, their workflow, their way. It's as simple as that.
This is something I think a lot of people not too familiar with Metroid Prime seem to be missing. So listen up, everyone. I know it sounds like a stupid thing to say, but this game is not something you can just take on and expect good results. This game doesn't play like your average video game, it's complicated to an unmatched extent as far as I am aware. Just a simple jump is a huge mathematical problem, and jumping is the most common method of movement. There are so many rules you need to follow if you want to actually gain and maintain speed. So many mistakes that will go unnoticed without a full understanding of what you're doing. Trajectory, facing angle, position, samus' state... they're all vital, and not a single one can be changed without throwing the others out of whack. Maybe this still doesn't sound too difficult to you? Well remember that this game uses only the analog stick for both movement and looking around, and once you've pressed R to look around, your controls are locked, which adds a whole new level to things. Throw in prior momentum from a previous jump, or throw in a specific area you need to be facing during the jump and you're in a whole mess of trouble. There are so many variables that people unfamiliar with the physics wouldn't even think about, or know how to change properly. To reiterate, there is a whole world of movement techniques practically invisible to anyone viewing from a casual standpoint. Even some of the people here who act like they know everything don't fully understand how a TAS would move in this game (myself being one of them). You cannot just decide that you're going to TAS Metroid Prime without first doing extensive research into what makes Samus move quickly. M2k2 is the one and only place to start learning.
EDIT: And please stop insulting itspersonnal thanks.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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One of the questions asked of itspersonnal was placed by him in the thread.
itsPersonnal wrote:
Direct
[13/10/2014 12:17:58 PM] Got4n: on your metroid prime video
[13/10/2014 12:18:03 PM] Got4n: how you get that high speed?
[13/10/2014 12:18:05 PM] Got4n: on WIP1
If they had read the documentation site that is metroid2002 (like we asked), or kept in mind the techniques brought up to them earlier in the thread, they would have probably came up with the answer without having to contact itspersonnal. As it is, they're wasting people's time.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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OmnipotentEntity wrote:
Dude, their TAS, their workflow, their way. It's as simple as that. They either do or don't want to join the 2k2 forums and that's their decision. They either do or don't want to interact with several people in a public way. They either do or do not wish to spend a long time researching the game. But you (as a collective) are certainly not making a good case for your forum.
Its not just forums. m2k2.taigaforum.com is the forums site. The main metroid2002 site is not forums. It's a series of pages with videos and explanations on tricks for the game. The main site documents stuff that they are asking questions about. The problem is that they don't care to read the documentation. Some of what wasn't covered on metroid2002 was covered in this thread already. Please actually read posts before making such judgments.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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You are mistaking what is being asked. There is quite a bit of documentation on the game already (metroid2002.com). What we are asking is for them to read that documentation and mess around with what was documented before trying to jump into a full TAS. They've ignored that documentation and persist on asking questions that they would have known some of the answers to if they read said documentation. Thus they are wasting the time of the people who they are asking questions to. "How did you go fast in WIP 1?" can be seen by reading metroid2002.com. What isn't covered by metroid2002.com was already mentioned earlier in the thread, and recently too.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Honestly, the main thing wrong with metroid2002 is lack of mention of R-Jumps and the mention of L-Lock Spring Jumps (something that has been proven to not actually exist). Sure, it might not have all the up-to-date most fast ways to go through rooms or a route, but its certainly a good start. And the fastest way to go through rooms for console wouldn't be the same with tas anyways.
Even if itspersonnal was to give you his dtm, you would still be diving into the deep end. Even if its unoptimized, it'd probably be hard to understand what he is doing and why.
What is being asked is to learn the basics. Read metroid2002. Learn about the game. Make that effort please. And then demonstrate that you know what you're doing with that knowledge. Don't go asking for "How did you go fast in this video" if you haven't read metroid2002. And thinking about things like "Maybe we should skip space jump!" should wait until you understand movement. T3 made an excellent post on how to go about learning the game, and it should apply to TAS as well: https://m2k2.taigaforum.com/post/the_i_need_help_topic302_351.html#the_i_need_help_topic302_351
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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People have been breaking Metroid Prime since the year it came out ( http://www.metroid2002.com/sequence_breaking_topics_tbj_V1.0.php ). That is 12 years. People who either run metroid prime, and even those who just follow the game closely would like to see a tas represent these 12 years of knowledge, rather than see a group of people try to cram some of that knowledge into a far shorter amount of time.
I highly recommend that if you don't already, start lurking the metroid2002 forums, start watching runs of the game on twitch ( http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Metroid%20Prime ), youtube and sda (all categories, don't just watch any%), learn all the terminology, take part in the metroid prime community, etc. Heck, it would be best if at least one of you started RUNNING the game. Try to get around a 1:10 in any% on console (if you run the game, you'll realize the differences between console and emulator). In addition, do 21%. Don't try speedrunning 21% or tasing it, just do it (with slow down if you must) to get a better understanding of the game. If you do all this, the end result will be way better than if you had not.
If you do not put the time and effort into learning about the game, the people who are in the prime community will look down on your TAS. Half a year of playing around with the game does not sound enough to do the game justice. Your posts are not very hope inspiring to me. I have a feeling that you will end up with a worse time than the expected time of miles's segmented run that is currently on hold.
I don't run the game, I've just lurked in the prime community for a while. I've learned quite a bit about the game just by lurking and watching runs.
Also nobody brought up ghetto dashes, which is dashing into the edge of a platform to get a slight boost in height at the to make it onto the platform. They are too precise to implement in most console runs. Its done in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0TaDibu4tg
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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CoolKirby wrote:
The level-by-level comments in this run's submission text note some entire levels that are "luck based", which I understand to mean controlled by the RNG. I would assume that at least those levels would desync and have to be redone due to different luck.
Monkey Ball does not have RNG, but it does have some very weird collision that feels like luck. If you hit something at a slightly different speed or angle (or time when the objects are moving), you could get a radically different bounce.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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ALAKTORN wrote:
Miles wrote:
Didn't get 56.16 Brandished. Also had a horrible aesthetic choice early in the run. No vote.
is this sarcasm?
“EX9 Construction: byrz has done 54.76 (7 frames better) TAS of this stage after the movie was finished.”
I don’t see why this wasn’t implemented in the movie? certainly SMB2 is a very hex-friendly game?
Miles is making a "Why didn't you choose baby" joke, because he likes Baby. Also, byrz said in the thread for smb1 that smb1 is not hex-friendly. Same probably applies to smb2.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
So in this game you go from one room to the next. One would think that the left path is obviously faster because it gets to the next door sooner.
This is Metroid Prime though.
How rooms in metroid prime load is that there are invisible loading triggers placed in the room. The next room will start loading as soon as you touch the next loading trigger. Ok, I recall shooting the door and being in close proximity to the door will also load the next room, but this is usually not the most effective method of loading rooms unless you are oob and only if the load times are short. Usually the loading trigger encompasses all inbounds paths to the door. The door will open when the following conditions are met:
1) the room finished loading
2) you shot/bombed the door
If you shoot the door before the next room is loaded, the door shield will disappear, but the door will remain shut until the next room has loaded. Thus perceived differences in console load times actually are the result in touching the loading triggers at different times. The actual difference in console load times is relatively small.
Unlike most games, you have control over your character when the game is loading. This leads to some interesting strategies.
Now take a look at our scenario again, but with loading triggers taken into account:
This is huge. This completely changes the strategy here. The right path touches the loading trigger sooner, so that the next room is fully loaded sooner, and you can leave the room sooner than if you went the left path.
However, emulator has shorter load times than console (again, I'm making up numbers here):
This is not the only way this affects strategies.
Look at this scenario:
So there is a scan point by the door. If the doors opened instantly, it might not be worth it to face the scan point and do a dash off of it. However, they don't. If you were not able to control your character when the game is loading, it would also not be worth it. But this is not the case.
As you can see, doing a dash off of the scan target would cost no time with console loads in this scenario.
However, with emulator loads:
It is no longer quite as advantageous.
In TAS, you can build up speed by doing that bunnyhop/r-jump thing itspersonnal mentioned earlier. So therefore, even if its a straight hallway with nothing in it, the strategy still can differ with varying load times.
Look at this scenario:
This scenario is similar to going from Temple Lobby to Artifact Temple. Artifact Temple takes a really long time to load on console. In addition, there are no scan points or anything else in Temple Lobby. I don't know if its 20 seconds on console and 5 seconds on emu or what. I just made up a bunch of numbers. Emu load times are shorter though, and that is what matters for this demonstration. I also don't know the exact size of the loading triggers.
Now normally, you would sit around and wait for the door to open in a run, then boost through it. With TAS tools, you can probably do better than that. There is no sideways speedcap in this game, and therefore the goal in this scenario should be to build up as much speed while waiting for the door to open as possible
Idea on how to do this with console loads:
Now emulator has shorter loading times therefore, emulator has less time to build up speed. Emulator would use this sort of strategy instead:
You would end up in the next room with less speed.
There are a bunch of weird cases that I don't feel like going over because I just wrote a really long post.
Please don't ignore what I'm saying just because I'm saying it and I did a stupid thing. I did kinda do a stupid thing. But please understand this concept. Its absolutely essential.