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In light of the current discussion on the category name for the recently published VVVVVV run, I think it's time to make a thread to discuss the general issue.
In the past, runs that were considered faster than 'conventional runs' (typically by using heavy memory corruption, or the like) were given the branch "glitched", while the conventional runs had no branch (referred to as "any%").
Several months back, this system was changed - as the definition of "any%" constitutes the fastest possible way to beat a game, the branch "glitched" has effectively been removed, as what used to be called "glitched" is now simply "any%". However, this has led to an issue with categorizing the previously any% runs - as they are not the fastest runs, they needed a branch to be identified as. This has led to run labels for previously any% movies, like "Super Mario World "11 exits"", "Super Metroid "no X-Ray glitch"", "Crash Bandicoot 2 "no box glitch"", the recently relabeled "VVVVVV "no Esc"", and a run that was at one point referred to as "Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island "no L+R, no null egg glitch"".
A lot of criticism has been raised over this categorization (primarily on IRC earlier on, but now moreso in the forums as well), as the branch names can be confusing or nondescriptive for newcomers. I keep seeing more and more people who want the label "glitched" brought back and the definition of "any%" on the site reverted to before the change.
On the one hand, "glitched" is clearer for audience viewers; on the other hand, it is arbitrary, and leaves an arbitrary definition for "any%". On the other hand, "no x glitch" is an objective definition, and provides an objective definition for "any%" (fastest run possible) but can lead to long or confusing branch names.
So I'll put this poll here - which label system is preferred? Should we bring the "glitched" label back, or retain the current system as it is now?
Related discussion topics:
VVVVVV branch discussion (the currently ongoing issue)
"Movies labeled "glitched" that shouldn't be"
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Perfect Death wrote:
One question, wouldn't it be quicker to advance to level 17 from 9 rather than 0? You can wrap from 0 to 9 in one frame and thus requiring less presses on the warp code.
That is what the run does. It's a little tricky to see since the menus fly by so fast in the first second, but if you look closely, you'll see the game starts at level 9.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Spikestuff wrote:
Only just looked into this.
Compared to the other NES Tetris is there anyway to manipulate the pieces to get a better order and a faster time?
If that isn't so congratulations on the TAS you created, it was fairly entertaining.
Nope, it's not possible to luck-manipulate the pieces in game. They always are the same, regardless of what you do.
You can only change the pieces by starting the game at a different frame, but you'd have to do the whole run on each starting frame to see if it even helps any.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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TheKDX7 wrote:
Mothrayas you who looked at it, is autoscroll more entertaining?
I'd certainly say so, yes. Last run's greatest flaw was that it did very little with autoscrolling sections. This time, they're generally much more eventful, contain some more fun tricks, and you'll have to see for yourself what the run does with the Cossack 1 autoscroller.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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YouTube encode:
Link to video
The run was very nice. It looks really polished now, and there were many surprising tricks (such as glitching past the Cossack 1 autoscroller, followed by defeating Mothraya with Rush Cannon, and glitching through the boss doors to skip bossfights near the end.)
I also really liked the usage of Rush Search basically anywhere you had time in the fortress stages (especially during the Cossack 2 bossfight, so you could Rush Cannon all of the orbs). Weapon usage looked really optimal.
Like feos said, this run is NES TAS award candidate and I would certainly say it is worthy of a star.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Great to see an improvement. I'll watch and encode it later today.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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PCSX-rr doesn't actually have a menu option to open up input display, but I'm pretty sure it displays input automatically if Show FPS Display is enabled (press . while the emulator is running).
Note that this requires the default graphics plugin (TAS Soft Graphics plugin). If you're using another graphics plugin, input display won't work.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Warp wrote:
If the same game is designed to run on NTSC and PAL versions of the console, then it ought to be possible to make a TAS that beats the game on both consoles (rather than desync in one of them, as usual.)
This would also probably allow the TAS to deviate in the other console (and eg. select another playable character).
Depending on the console (if it runs at 50FPS on PAL) it'd certainly be possible to run both with one input file. But then, on screen the inputs would desync really fast, as one console goes through the input stream significantly faster than the other one.
For example, running both NTSC and PAL versions of Super Mario Bros., if you press A after 300 frames, you jump after 5 seconds in NTSC-SMB, and after 6 seconds in PAL-SMB. And that desync just gets much worse as time goes on.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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niamek wrote:
His reasoning is that, since a computer screen is like 1024 X 768 thingy, that means there is more than 700 000 pixel to color. And if we assign a different color to each pixel, the amount of information is huge.
Assuming 24-bit colors, you can fit the color information of a pixel in 3 bytes. 3 bytes * (1024 * 768) = 2359296 bytes = ~2.36 MB. The amount of information isn't that crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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jlun2 wrote:
There's a capture devices for the original DS right? Can that be used to record how fast Gameboy Advance plays said games?
Not sure how reliable that would be, as a DS is (obviously) different hardware from a Gameboy Advance.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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CoolKirby wrote:
I did try to do something more positive with Superfast Mario Bros. though — is that more how I should word my other descriptions?
I noticed the Superfast Mario Bros. one is a bit verbose and technical, especially compared to the other two Mario hack descriptions above it, whose brevity makes this description stand out. The whole second sentence seems unnecessary, in my opinion. (Also, it's not an autoscroller.)
Personally, I'd have written it as something like this:
"A Mario hack in which Mario zooms forward so fast, the game can just barely keep up without breaking completely. Gotta go fast!"
EDIT: Also, I moved the Mr. Pi entry to Alternate Goals. Pi Day is not the same as April Fools' Day.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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CoolKirby, I noticed this a few times before, but I noticed again with your recent additions: in my opinion, your movie descriptions are a bit too bland and negative. They pretty much just enumerate the reasons the runs were rejected, instead of explaining what makes them actually interesting, or adding a bit of excitement and/or humor to the descriptions. (Look at most of the current entries, especially many of the older ones). That'd make them a bit more fun to read.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Spikestuff wrote:
Moth your logo is nice but I'm going to be picky with one thing.
The Purple on Blue.
That isn't a good combo.
I figured it's readable well enough as it is now. Though I'll look into it and see if I can come up with something better.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Has this criticism (from above thread) been addressed?
Garrison wrote:
While the time may look impressive compared to what human play has achieved, there's some very fundamental gaps in the TASers knowledge in regards to movement speed. The way speed works in a nutshell is that there are several stacking speed modifiers that this run apparently does none of. Strafe Running with the strafe buttons is one factor, Strafe Running with use of the Strafe On button is another (this one is more tricky due to the fact that it locks you facing one direction. A major speed modifier that's actually really fundamental to Doom 64 running and sets it aside from the PC Doom games is called neutral reset. Basically you can reset the neutral position on an N64 analog stick and setting the neutral position of the stick to all the way back essentially gives the player double the run speed when moving forward. This comes at the cost of your ability to back up via analog stick and can only be achieved with the specific back button.
Another thing that could potentially be optimized further is playing with a higher sensitivity to make turns quicker and get enemies out of your way faster. Enemies in general are not manipulated all that well in this TAS. It's a shame to have this TAS discovered in a "complete" state, but there's just such a large gap in understanding that someone with the knowledge could easily shave upwards of ten minutes off of this.
(emphasis mine)
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Dimon12321 wrote:
LOL!! Is it a joke???
It's a submission from April Fools 3 years ago. Certainly it's a joke.
(The screenshot suggestion may be legit though.)
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Yeah, I similarly didn't put down a serious vote for the run. I actually think there's a whole lot of people who weren't serious in voting. I wouldn't trust any of the voting results.
(Hopefully people could tell that my vote/post was too sarcastic to be a proper vote).
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Encode is up now.
coldsun0630 wrote:
And could I upload your encode on my Youtube channel after it finishes?
The HD encode is 11.98 GB, so it'll be a little tricky to send.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Keeping in mind that many later levels take literally several hundred steps to finish, I'd say that actually leaves quite a bit of room for frame loss by entering the input "within a few frames" for every step, or room for error in making even a single misstep along the way.
By the way, I've been working on an encode for the past few days. It's currently processing on YouTube. I'll link the video and accept the run when it's up.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Warp wrote:
This looks shopped. I can tell from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few shops in my time.
You forgot to put up your fun avatar.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
TAS competitions typically go into General.
EDIT: Moved to General.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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CoolKirby wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
CoolKirby wrote:
Good point. How about "all stages", since that's what this run aims to do differently from the published run?
I don't think "all stages" would work. Technically an optimal all stages run would use the save glitch version and just run through each stage there - saves having to fight each boss at the end (as they're already beaten, although they can still be refought in the boss rush), saves having to revisit stages for upgrades, and already has time-saving upgrades and weapons from the start.
Then what can we call this run? It needs to have some sort of branch name to distinguish it from the other run.
"100%", maybe? Since this run legitimately goes through all the steps to attain 100% completion while 100% in the other run is due to the save glitch?
If it needs a branch to differ by, I'd go with "no save glitch". "100%" might also work, but since collecting all items is required to beat the game anyway, 100% is still the same as any% here.
Derakon wrote:
Could we just call this one "Rockman 3" and the other one "Rockman X3" per Mothrayas' previous post? Surely that won't cause confusion!
The problem with this is that nobody refers to the pirate game with those names, and it'll just cause confusion with the official Rockman games with those names. But I guess that was your point :P
Derakon wrote:
More usefully, we could call them "Rockman X3 (glitched dump)" and "Rockman X3".
Do you mean Rockman DX3?
In any case, "glitched dump" for the save glitch run doesn't really help as it's the cartridge itself that was glitched, and the version this run uses has the hitbox glitch, so it's similarly "glitched" in a way.
Also, I don't think putting "glitched" in one run's description and not in the other seems a bit weird. Both games have an equally high number of glitches.
CoolKirby wrote:
Hmm, I'm not sure. Could we distinguish the movies by the name of the game in the title screen of their respective dump, despite that both games were released as Rockman DX3?
The movies are currently distinguished by revision number (1 and 2). Perhaps using the title screen name is more descriptive. Like "Rockman DX3 (Rockman 3)". Might be a bit long for a version tag, though.
Finally, if you want to be really asinine about different game names, you could call the save glitch one Rockman DX3 and this one Zook Hero 2 :)
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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[00:52:11] <scrimpy> i think moths are cuter than ferrets
[00:52:17] <scrimpy> -scrimpy, 2014
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Technically, I used Paint.NET for the Rockman screenshot (ensuring that the Magnet Beam-less run had no Magnet Beam in it, of course).
But most other screenshots are unmodified (and not done by me), including the SMB one.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Ah, I got it working now. For some reason, firmware language was set as French on the emulator I was using. (The run requires it to be English.)
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
TAS competitions typically go into