Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Hello again. I've just completed the wacky world with an astounding improvement time of 220.2 seconds putting the total improvement time at 482.3 (8:02.3 minutes faster!). These improvements were from more "third player" combinations and the discovery of some new glitches. Here it is:
http://www.geocities.com/eonouzo/Ouzo-LostVikingsv2-WIP4.zip
I'll explain level-by-level:
1. NFL8 - I made the balloon actions more precise and in the second section, I brought both Erik and Olaf together to be more efficient with items (not to mention the avoidance of fall damage).
2. WKYY - I thought about sending all three down Olaf's intended path and that proved to be a huge time-saver. I also sent Erik to Baleogs path (the elevator with the red targets) in order to get through the door without having to wait for the elevator to rise. This is where I found a "new" glitch. It is similiar to the falling-key glitch, only it's done with a different color-key and it didn't use the keyhole, enabling both Erik and Baelog to fall without taking damage.
3. CMB0 - I found a trick that enables the vikings to "float" over holes. They're actually taking a step too many and can go over holes. But I had to find the right pixel for this to work, so you see that Olaf has to slow down a bit. I also found a way for all three to be on the last bubble.
4. 8BLL - Not a whole lot of improvement here. Each person has to take a different path and that ruins any chance of a two or three player combo.
5. TRDR - This level had, by far, the most improvement time taken off - over 42 seconds! This was because of a glitch I found while messing around. Apparently, using a different key on a keyhole over a "horizontal door" will make that person fall through the door! This only works if you're falling, so I can't just use it and fall. So, that's why I have to give it to Baleog, and in turn give it to Erik so all three may go down Olaf's intended path. Unfortunately, I can't see this working for any other place.
6. FNTM - Another big improvement here. This comes mostly from having all three go together and improved balloon movements and actions.
7. WRLR - Found that Olaf doesn't need the overhead fan to reach the pump leading up to the red key. Also, changed a few paths and had all three go together, as usual.
8. PDDY - Not a big improvement here. I had Olaf go up with Erik so he wouldn't have to take fall-damage.
9. TRPD - I found another major glitch here: The "pinchers" used to hold the block made Erik get pushed into the wall when the switch was flipped. Then, I switched to Olaf, which made Erik fall. Erik then jumped which pushed him down and that enabled him to puch the button. Normally, there is no way to reach the button without falling down, to which you need the block to be pushed onto the big button below so that the person holding up the block (Olaf) can get out. But since I hit the button with erik and continue on, the first part of the level involving the block is rendered pointless! (I recommend watching this at 50% because it happens really fast). Other than that, the level was relatively the same. I really wish there was some way to shoot the last target without waiting for the very slow moving platform. Oh well.
If I have missed anything (which I most likely have) I'd love to know. I'm hoping to push this as close to the 40 minute mark as I can.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Wow, I have no idea whats going on in this movie.
Anyway, a few things stuck out:
1. You fly way too much and there are times when flying could have been used to avoid slowing down.
2. To avoid lag, try to destroy as many enemies as you can.
3. There was one instance where you stop to kill two shell-enemies. Couldn't you have just taken damage to pass them?
4. Though I'm nost sure how, I have a feeling the boss battles can be improved.
5. The menus could be handled better. Use frame advance if you have to.
6. Your 496 rerecords show. You should use as many as you need in order to produce the best possible result and since you seem to know more about this game than anyone else, I'm sure that will be no problem.
This game is strange, but it has lots of potential for a time attack. This movie just needs some work. I hope I haven't discouraged you, but I'm voting 'no' because this can be improved, maybe 2-3 minutes (who knows?). I could be wrong on some things, so let me know what you think.
P.S. I like your avatar too :)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
I like it. You did a lot of things I had no idea about (like skipping the cheetahs in level 7 and the fighting technique for scar). I also like the way you handled level 8 (I hate that level). Though, I still don't like your level 4, but I guess it's not a big deal.
Good job on level 7 and 9. Very good fighting techniques. I wouldn't have expected you to be 100 seconds faster, so great job. Obvious yes vote from me.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
I don't understand what's so bad about it (other than the dumb concept). I played it a little and it seemed just like another mediocre fighting game.
The movie was good, however. Nice battles, good scenery. Yes.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Finished with optimizing the factory world. I was able to shave off only 170 frames on this time.
http://www.geocities.com/eonouzo/Ouzo-LostVikingsv2-WIP4.zip
There were not as many improvements in this WIP because a lot of things Truncated and I thought would work didn't.
In BTRY, Erik couldn't get past the robot, even when switching to avoid the shot because the robot would just fire a second shot right away.
I found that the elevator in RSVP is too fast for Erik too jump off Olaf's shield, as was the elevator in CBLT.
AS for picking up more bombs in CBLT, I found I still had to wait for the elevator, so it didn't save any time, but it looks better. As far as taking damage to getting the third bomb, I would have still had to wait for Baleog and Olaf to get to the controllable elevator, so Erik running to the right to get the third bomb didn't waste any time. I only managed to squeeze off 3 frames in this level and that was probably due to Olaf falling at a faster velocity after dropping the bomb (this time Olaf just fell instead of gliding).
In H0PP, I saved 44 frames from more precise movement from Erik and having him open the Blue-key door later.
I hex-edited the first part of SMRT because I didn't see anything wrong with it. This time, I didn't glide the entire time to the saw robot because it's movements begin as soon as the screen comes to it. Also, I moved the three through the jagged spikes better, but had to wait for the elevator yet again.
I was wrong about jumping down the elevator shaft in V8TR. It turns out it didn't matter if it's not a suffeciently timed jump, it ended up saving 9 frames anyway.
I think I've done all I can with this world, but as always, anyone finds anything I missed, I'd appreciate it.
I plan to hex edit a couple of levels due to the SNDS condition (not having Erik go by himself and the other two go as a "team", but have all three go together with frequent switches). These are GR8T and TRSS, though there might be more. But I will probably do that when I'm finished with the game.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Sounds interesting. I hope I'm not asking too much, but do you think you could get a .gmv up to paint a clearer picture? (I'd love to see just how fast you get zoomed)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Truncated wrote:
Whoa, you're doing this without frame advance? Why? You should try, it's great. No more guessing if you got the right frame.
I'm having no problem with the way things have been going. Eh, maybe. The Lost Vikings operates a little differently from most games. The game's movements and actions act in a series of 3 frames. I'll try to explain:
Let's say I want to hit something with a sword. So I hit the button during the game (these are the frames in succession of eachother) - 1.2.3.1.2.3[(1)user input].2.3.[(1)action produced].2.3.1.2.3...
It would not matter if I pressed the button after the first, second or even third frame in the series of three, the action would still be produced on the same frame which makes it different from other games because usually the input you make onto the game produces the action one frame later (which is why frame advance works so good for menus). I don't need to guess which frame it is because the game already establishes where and when you'll be able to produce actions and movements (which is both good and bad I guess) .That's why I don't think frame advance would help me that much. *I'm pretty sure this is right.
Truncated wrote:
>It was a glitch. I've actually used it a few other times before. I guess they weren't so obvious as this one. *shrugs*
How and under what circumstances does this glitch work?
It's actually pretty simple. Just use a key on a keyhole while falling and you will avoid the crashing animation. That's why I was having such a big problem in JMNN.
Truncated wrote:
I'm leaving in five days and I'll be gone for almost a month, so I guess you'll be on your own after that. Maybe I can check the forums once or twice, but definately not play any movies.
Oh, I'll manage :)
I'll be sure to review the entire movie thoroughly before submitting it.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Truncated wrote:
First things first: I don't understand how the blue tunnels work. Sometimes you are traveling faster than other times. Could you explain?
The vertical shafts act like ladders. I guess because you can't see where I am, it looks sub-optimal.
Truncated wrote:
At 16:46, it looks like you grab the ladder early and are forced to make an extra jump.
Actually, I had to grab the ladder there because any other place would not suffice. If I grabbed it too high up, it would take longer to fall on top of the ladder (you can't get up on the ledge without jumping off the top of the ladder).
Truncated wrote:
To have Baleog appear ahead of Erik at 17:56-ish was magic.
Okay. Thanks! (I hope this was a compliment! ;) )
Truncated wrote:
Why do you go into smack-a-wall pose before hitting the enemy projectiles with Erik? For show?
Actually, I just realized that I could avoid getting hit by jumping, switching to Olaf and switching back thus negating the shot (like in V8TR). I don't know how much time it will save, but I'll try it out.
Truncated wrote:
At 18:35, it looks like you could have fired your first arrow earlier, but since you did it with frame advance this shouldn't be the case.
Actually, I'm doing it at 6%/3% speed which explains all the rerecords >_<
Anyway, the part you mentioned is actually a glitch (kind of like the item-1 glitch in rockman 2), I had to move into the wall and fire the other two shots. I could only get two shots off if I stayed on the elevator.
Truncated wrote:
At 19:05, could you fall directly into the hole by starting to turn earlier? Or would this lead to falldamage?
Yes, it will lead to fall damage. I also tried it on the breakable platform, but that also led to damage.
Truncated wrote:
While falling a long distance with Erik afterwards at 19:07, is it possible to do something with the other vikings? Perhaps the scroll time is to long.
I could, but not much. In fact, I probably wouldn't have enough time because I have to pan over to the others and then pan back, but since I'm falling at a great rate of speed, it would take a while for the screen to catch up. But I'll see about it.
Truncated wrote:
Possible to go directly into the hole at 20:13?
I've tried a number of scenerios for this spot. I need to get more height, but the laser is positioned just high enough for me not to get electrocuted.
Truncated wrote:
Elevator at 20:19, could you jump off Olaf's shield? Perhaps the enemy negates all improvements so that Olaf is the weakest link here anyway.
This still might be going too fast, but I"ll make sure.
Truncated wrote:
20:54, take damage and pick up more bombs. You can then skip getting the bomb next to the elevator at 21:17, and maybe the one before that at 20:57 too.
You are right. I'm still kind of used to the old route :P. I don't know if it's faster to get a third bomb up there, so I'll have to try it.
Truncated wrote:
21:23, another possible shieldjump from elevator, but this elevator moves faster than the previous one so maybe it's like the ones in the desert.
These elevators move the same speed as the ones in the Egyptian world.
Truncated wrote:
21:36, jump again with Erik after landing on the ledge before switching. Maybe.
Either this or maybe the elevator could be going slow enough for Erik to jump on Olaf's shield? I'll have to try this.
Truncated wrote:
22:11 or something, can you open with the blue key later? That way you could keep Erik moving forward, he'll come there later anyway. Perhaps give it to one of the others.
This could be a possibility as well.
Truncated wrote:
22:49, how did you fall with Erik without taking any damage? He was in the Uh-oh pose.
It was a glitch. I've actually used it a few other times before. I guess they weren't so obvious as this one. *shrugs*
Truncated wrote:
23:03, why the flying? If you're going to take damage anyway, can't you drop down and do it directly? You have a fruit if you need to take damage twice.
I drift down so that the saw robot can get far enough from the opening in the wall(this robot will not let you pass by like the others).
Truncated wrote:
Can you drop the bomb before opening the door and still blow up the floor?
No. It's too far away when it explodes.
Truncated wrote:
23:13, while waiting for the first spike, move Erik. It probably doesn't help overall because of the moving platform later, it just looks nice and gives you one less question to answer for the submission.
This is another spot I"ve noticed could be done faster so, yes I will fix it.
Truncated wrote:
23:38, jump down the hole.
I tried this. There's too much of a delay because there's not enough distance to make a sufficiently-timed jump into the hole (I can't jump to any desired level, like megaman can for instance).
Truncated wrote:
24:02, it looks like you jump up with Erik later than you did last time. (This might be an illusion because the elevator starts moving down the other time.)
I jumped at the same level last time. I think you're right about it being an illusion.
Truncated wrote:
24:05, jump down to the trampoline unless it gives damage.
Will do. (I can probably do it this time (instead of 23:38) because I'll be turning around in the air and that will most likely give it enough "distance" to make it.)
Truncated wrote:
While going down with the elevator with Erik and Baleog, can you move Olaf forward, or is he already standing at the verge? I noticed you moved him a small bit backwards before.
He would get hurt by the furnace (or if he went to far, would fry) if I moved him any further without shooting it with a fire-arrow.
Truncated wrote:
Phew, that was a lot. I realize most of these are probably junk, but some of them are maybe worth testing anyway. Maybe one or two will work out.
You don't give yourself enough credit :) You're very perceptive.
I'm going to be gone for a week (I'm leaving today) so I won't be able to continue on this until then, but when I return I'll utilize everything discussed. Thanks for your input!
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Sorry for being gone so long. I've finally finished the factory world with a improvement of 93.7 seconds putting the total improvement time at 262.8 seconds! Here it is:
http://www.geocities.com/eonouzo/Ouzo-LostVikingsv2-WIP3.zip
As you can see, there were a lot more involved movements and "third player" elements added, along with a few tricks.
A problem with the factory world is the pounders which I had constantly getting in my way.
I'll explain some of the things I did and why:
BTRY: When I entered the first vent with Erik, I switched player 1 a few times. This was to get Baelog past the robot without getting shot (which would cause him to get shot again because he was not accelerating until player 1 makes his way to player 2.) [There might be a better way of doing this, I just don't know what it is.]
CBLT: After Olaf dropped the bomb, he puts up his shield and glides downward. This is because the bomb will not destroy the laser above the elevator unless it is destroyed on-screen. Also, when the elevator is almost to the next level, Erik pauses in midair. This is because I would clip the second masher, thus lowering my acceleration.
V8TR: I use a familiar trick when getting the fire arrow; I switch to Olaf to avoid the shots by the robot. A funny glitch happened in this level - Everything turned red for a few seconds. This is because I switched to Olaf (who was down by the furnace which makes the screen red) and switched again too fast for the game to know. It doesn't help me, it's just funny-looking.
I will most likely redo the last three levels because of a couple mistakes I've noticed (ex. moved too far when jumping up steps in HOPP). I'm posting this now so if anyone finds anything else wrong, I won't have to redo or hex-edit it again (I'm trying to avoid hex-editing because it's dreadfully boring).
So, as always, anyone has any suggestions or notices any mistakes, I'd appreciate it.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
I had the same problem as feitclub and Truncated, so I tried to finish it myself.
MY GOD. How the hell was anyone able beat the final boss of this game legitimately? I could get maybe one shot on him, but then I died about .01 seconds afterwards.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
michael flatley wrote:
feitclub, I'd rather keep all my tricks secret until the big release
I think TSA said it best (from the SDA forums):
TSA wrote:
For all the bashing of "tool-assisted" runs, I thought by now people would learn a lesson from them - teamwork pays off. Sure, you can hate their products - but you can not deny the dedication and discussion of routes and tricks that lead to the videos are simply great. While they pool their resources for the best video possible, speed runners (some) still squander about secrets and tricks.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
A game like The Lost Vikings, for example, is actually not very hard to play controlling 2 players (I play it mostly at 6%, but sometimes at 3% for menus, item-switching, and difficult combos involving all three vikings). Although, the published version is pretty badly played compared to the new version I"m working on.
As for controls, I configure the d-pads close together so I can use one hand for moving two vikings forward, while my left is for actions and such.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
It's nearly impossible to watch a 83 minute time attack without any boredom. And that is what you have accomplished today.
As I said before, the thing I really love about your movie is the aesthetics. Some of the best I have seen in the history of this site. I really liked how you ended everything at 99. You really know how to draw a crowd :)