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It turns out that it IS faster to stop and re-spindash in the oil, but only once, since I need to jump from the top of the oil to make it up onto the last platform.
I also discovered some other big speedups - namely, my initial jump into the oil was delayed by 1 frame so I could clip the corner of the pipe (stopping me horizontally so I could start a spindash), and my initial spindash-jump by the 3 'humps' was delayed and shortened so I would land earlier.
All this managed to gain me 3 time units (just over 2 seconds, since I went from 0:29:06 down to around 0:26:54), bringing my time down to 0:26 on Oil Ocean 1.
Current status:
---------------- Current run ------ | Previous run ----- | TSC Records ------
Emerald Hill --- 0:18 - 0:36 ------ | 0:19 - 0:37 ------ | 0:20 - 0:38 ------
Chemical Plant - 0:17 - 0:51 ------ | 0:20 - 1:04 ------ | 0:22 - 0:53 ------
Aquatic Ruin --- 0:19 - 0:38 ------ | 0:24 - 0:44 ------ | 0:24 - 0:43 ------
Casino Night --- 0:25 - 0:55 ------ | 0:26 - 1:01 ------ | 0:34 - 1:05 ------
Hill Top ------- 0:39 - 0:48 ------ | 0:45 - 1:00 ------ | 0:48 - 1:03 ------
Mystic Cave ---- 0:28 - 0:37 ------ | 0:35 - 0:41 ------ | 0:40 - 0:49 ------
Oil Ocean ------ 0:26 - x:xx ------ | 0:35 - 0:51 ------ | 0:38 - 0:59 ------
Metropolis ----- x:xx - x:xx - x:xx | 1:01 - 1:00 - 1:53 | 1:12 - 1:30 - 2:33
Wing Fortress -- x:xx ------------- | 1:47-------------- | 1:56 -------------
Death Egg ------ x:xx ------------- | 0:48-------------- | 0:49 -------------
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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Emulator Coder, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
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I haven't tested this yet, but I doubt it will be faster, since you have to slow down (which, if you were in a spindash-jump, always starts the moment you hit the oil) before you can spindash, sinking into the oil the entire time. By the time the spindash starts, you don't have long before you need to jump (to avoid getting killed), and jumping reduces you to normal running speed as you reach maximum height.
It *might* prove faster to re-spindash after every jump, but I doubt it; in any event, I'll test it later.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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My previous attempt at Mystic Cave 1 managed 30 seconds, though it had several slow spots in it. Further improvement managed to get me 28 seconds, with about 2 or 3 frames to spare.
Current status:
---------------- Current run ------ | Previous run ----- | TSC Records ------
Emerald Hill --- 0:18 - 0:36 ------ | 0:19 - 0:37 ------ | 0:20 - 0:38 ------
Chemical Plant - 0:17 - 0:51 ------ | 0:20 - 1:04 ------ | 0:22 - 0:53 ------
Aquatic Ruin --- 0:19 - 0:38 ------ | 0:24 - 0:44 ------ | 0:24 - 0:43 ------
Casino Night --- 0:25 - 0:55 ------ | 0:26 - 1:01 ------ | 0:34 - 1:05 ------
Hill Top ------- 0:39 - 0:48 ------ | 0:45 - 1:00 ------ | 0:48 - 1:03 ------
Mystic Cave ---- 0:28 - 0:37 ------ | 0:35 - 0:41 ------ | 0:40 - 0:49 ------
Oil Ocean ------ x:xx - x:xx ------ | 0:35 - 0:51 ------ | 0:38 - 0:59 ------
Metropolis ----- x:xx - x:xx - x:xx | 1:01 - 1:00 - 1:53 | 1:12 - 1:30 - 2:33
Wing Fortress -- x:xx ------------- | 1:47-------------- | 1:56 -------------
Death Egg ------ x:xx ------------- | 0:48-------------- | 0:49 -------------
My initial retry at Mystic Cave 2 managed a full 2 seconds faster than my original attempt, though it included a significant delay at a set of rotating crates - going underneath them was at least one second faster. After several other optimizations, the time on this level is down to 0:37.
A bit of advice from Sprint allowed me to shave 25 frames off of the end of act 1, and when I hexedited act 2 in, the score countup somehow started 3 frames earlier.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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Emulator Coder, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
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I can jump easily on the first wall, but on the 2nd one I either have to run the entire way (which is far, far slower) or change it into a shallow spindash-jump (which still loses quite a bit of speed, but might be *slightly* faster).
And yes, I WILL fix the goddamn ledge clearances, but only after ALL other possible places to gain speed have been found, since that pretty much requires redoing the entire level (including the earthquake section, which is incredibly tedious). Also, it's not particularly easy to understand a strategy when you don't even explain it. What do you think I am, some sort of mind-reader?
On the very first ramp (after the S-pipe), jumping isn't an option because it's too high up. On the second ramp jump (right after the loop), I ALREADY managed to gain 15 frames (which you seemed to count again in your 'frames to save' total) in a trial run which I didn't include in the latest movie because it would've required redoing the entire level. On the third ramp, I'm rolling from a spindash so I can't make a controlled ramp jump - unless jumping before the ramp somehow retains enough speed, I don't see how it would be faster than my original method.
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I'm not talking about jumping while rolling, I'm talking about walking up the side of the wall, which reverts me to walking in midair (or rolling in midair). If you land on the very edge of a platform from that condition, horizontal controls will be completely locked for about 30 frames worth of walking; if you jump, the lag simply gets delayed until you land again. Note that this does NOT happen if you simply jump up to the ledge, but that requires that you be running beforehand (which isn't an option on the 2nd jump after the loop, unless I jump out of the spindash and consequently lose all of my speed).
By jumping up as little as possible, your feet can hit the ground earlier but there will be a SIGNIFICANT delay before you can actually spindash.
The following movie ([edit] no longer available) illustrates this effect. Right after I jump up the ledge with the fire-throwing dude at the top, you will notice that I take several steps to the right before I turn around, yet I was holding left the entire time.
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Emulator Coder, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
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xebra wrote:
In many of the instances where you are trying to just squeeze over the lip of a ledge, you lose a few frames. Try to lower your clearance. While it is true that in order to do that you will have to traverse the portion immediately prior a tad slower, that is not as damaging as the painfully slow rate at which you rise up and fall back down to the ground with excess clearance.
There's just one problem - y'see, there's some sort of bug in the game where if you land just barely on the edge of a platform from a running-up-the-wall jump, the game will completely lock your L/R controls for up to 30(!) frames once you land; this actually happened in my previous run. It took quite a bit of trial to get those jumps to land just barely far enough from the edge to avoid this, and that involved jumping slightly higher than usual.
It might be possible to avoid that by jumping from the bottom of the ramp in the first case (immediately after the loop), but NOT the second one since I was rolling at the time. Of course, then I'd have to redo the earthquake room (and with my luck, the shortcut would no longer work properly).
xebra wrote:
Additionally, it is faster to stick a spindash in at ~31.8 seconds (~8:45:48). Perhaps you left it out because you can't decelerate fast enough to start far enough back to clear the next ledge with a 6-dash. That problem is easily solved by simply doing a 5-dash. (You may try experimenting with a spindash as early as 31.0 (~8:44:50), I did not test this but it's worth a look.)
Lastly, though I did not try it in tandem with with any of the above, I was able to save a few frames by breaking the block and spindashing straight to the wall before the long fall, so that I landed on the platform closest to the purple dragon, as opposed to the one farther to the left. (It's probably not even necessary to break the block since you can undoubtedly land right next to it, I recall there being space to do that ... so you should save even more time if that is true.)
I believe at least 2 seconds can come off this time.
I'm more interested in how much time can ACTUALLY be saved, not just how much you think can be shaved off, since I doubt those changes alone would save the 120 frames necessary to gain an extra two seconds (I just barely got 0:50 in this trial).
Testing the first tactic, I was able to gain around 15 frames or so, all from the first jump (the 2nd slope cannot be optimized that way since I'm rolling from a spindash). Using the 2nd tactic and spindashing at the earlier point I was able to gain approximately 14 frames (gained even less from spindashing at the point you suggested). The 3rd suggestion gained the most - 23 frames, by landing next to the brick.
Overall, that adds up to about 52 frames, which is quite far from the 2 seconds you claimed. Did you even manage to get 0:48, or did you just make a random guess?
I've posted an updated movie using the 2nd and 3rd suggestions - using the 1st suggestion would require redoing most of the level, and I'd rather not do that just yet.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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When I'm at spindash speed, I'm going fast enough that jumping doesn't help. I tested this extensively in Hill Top 1 and found that it's best to just run through the loop and spin at the very end.
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Shortcuts can be particularly evil at times, especially the one in the above map ([edit] no longer available) which took me quite a while to figure out how to reach. This shortcut, along with other frame-advance-related optimizations, managed to improve my previous time by ten seconds.
Current status:
Emerald Hill --- 0:18 - 0:36
Chemical Plant - 0:17 - 0:51
Aquatic Ruin --- 0:19 - 0:38
Casino Night --- 0:25 - 0:55
Hill Top ------- 0:39 - 0:50
Mystic Cave ---- 0:35 - 0:41
Oil Ocean ------ 0:35 - 0:51
Metropolis ----- 1:01 - 1:00 - 1:53
Wing Fortress -- 1:47
Death Egg ------ 0:48
I even found a rather amusing bug during this level, where hitting a lava snake in just the right spot caused the game to completely lock up. Play this movie ([edit] no longer available) starting from this savestate ([edit] no longer available) (be sure to play it read-only!), then wait until shortly after the earthquake area.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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xebra wrote:
You seem to have trouble with frame counts, so allow me to elucidate with pictures
I suggest you drop the condescending attitute right now before you seriously piss me off. Talking to an experienced player as if he is some sort of halfwit who doesn't know how to count frames is INCREDIBLY insulting.
*cough*
A better way to jump over the initial seesaw (which included taking damage, but it's okay since it lands me in the perfect position to spindash), using Tails to bust the brick near the end, and an improved final S-pipe exit technique (involved pulling back constantly until the ramp, minimizing jump height so I could land next to the ring box earlier - ended up 10 frames faster than xebra's method) allowed me to get the time down to 0:39. 0:38 *might* be possible, but it would require cutting off an additional 21-22 frames. Frankly, I'm willing to let somebody ELSE accomplish that in their own speedrun; I've spent way too much time on this level already.
Current status:
Emerald Hill --- 0:18 - 0:36
Chemical Plant - 0:17 - 0:51
Aquatic Ruin --- 0:19 - 0:38
Casino Night --- 0:25 - 0:55
Hill Top ------- 0:39 - 1:00
Mystic Cave ---- 0:35 - 0:41
Oil Ocean ------ 0:35 - 0:51
Metropolis ----- 1:01 - 1:00 - 1:53
Wing Fortress -- 1:47
Death Egg ------ 0:48
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I suppose there's something I should point out - I'm doing this entire run by directly controlling Sonic only. I suppose part of it is just a 'conduct' I'm adhering to, but the last time I tried controlling Tails directly I got a big fat desynch.
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I just tried performing the actions at the times you specified (with Sonic breaking the block), and the times were completely off.
By letting Tails break the block, I was able to make it through the lava section a bit earlier and managed to get the "magic" speed back so I could land far enough forward for the final spindash. However, this only gained me 23 frames, which isn't quite enough to get 0:39. In any event, I've uploaded the new video for further analysis.
[edit] I've also determined a faster way of jumping over the initial seesaw - a slope-spinjump from just to the left. I end up taking damage from spikes, which is actually a good thing, since it throws me forward AND lands me at zero velocity for a quick spindash through the S-pipe. This, along with using Tails to bust the brick near the end, should get me 0:39.
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I actually encountered this myself, but when Tails broke the block I then had to walk forward far enough to 1-point jump up to the ledge (which took about 20-30 frames, almost the same amount of time saved from having Tails break the block). In any event, I'll test it to see exactly how many frames are gained/lost.
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Hill Top 1 basically took the same route, using frame advance to get more precision and find better jump spots, and was improved by 3 seconds.
After fixing the problem Truncated pointed out, I also found a way to run straight through the rising lava part without taking damage. Unfortunately, the added speed made it impossible to land at an optimal position for the end-level spindash (in order to avoid clipping the ledge above the final ramp I had to slow down for 3 frames, so I couldn't land far enough forward), so I had to settle for a 1-point jump to get there first. In any event, it managed to shave 2more seconds off the time.
Current status:
Emerald Hill --- 0:18 - 0:36
Chemical Plant - 0:17 - 0:51
Aquatic Ruin --- 0:19 - 0:38
Casino Night --- 0:25 - 0:55
Hill Top ------- 0:40 - 1:00
Mystic Cave ---- 0:35 - 0:41
Oil Ocean ------ 0:35 - 0:51
Metropolis ----- 1:01 - 1:00 - 1:53
Wing Fortress -- 1:47
Death Egg ------ 0:48
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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To anyone wanting to run a dedicated server, I highly suggest you do NOT unless you have a reasonably powerful system (2.4GHz or faster) - on my 768MB P3 1000, it was impossible for me to do ANYTHING at all after a lot of stuff had been built (was getting less than 1 frame per 2 seconds).
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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My first attempt at Casino Night 2 managed to get 57 seconds, 4 seconds faster than in my original run. The fact that it immediately desynched at the beginning of the level was somewhat of a blessing - when I redid it, I managed to shave off an additional 2 seconds.
Current status:
Emerald Hill --- 0:18 - 0:36
Chemical Plant - 0:17 - 0:51
Aquatic Ruin --- 0:19 - 0:38
Casino Night --- 0:25 - 0:55
Hill Top ------- 0:45 - 1:00
Mystic Cave ---- 0:35 - 0:41
Oil Ocean ------ 0:35 - 0:51
Metropolis ----- 1:01 - 1:00 - 1:53
Wing Fortress -- 1:47
Death Egg ------ 0:48
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Rolling off the first spring saved enough time that I could fall directly into the last red spring without having to make an extra jump (since I fell right off the ledge above, rather than off the swinging platform), though rolling off the last spring actually made it take 3 frames LONGER to reach the boss. With the speed gained here, I was able to get 0:39 plus 8 frames.
[edit] After adding an underwater slope-jump I missed earlier, I just barely managed to succeed in getting a time of 0:38 on Aquatic Ruin 2.
Current status:
EH1: 0:18
EH2: 0:36
CP1: 0:17
CP2: 0:51
AR1: 0:19
AR2: 0:38
CN1: 0:25
CN2: goal = 1:01 or faster
HT1: goal = 0:45 or faster
HT2: goal = 1:00 or faster
MC1: goal = 0:35 or faster
MC2: goal = 0:41 or faster
OO1: goal = 0:35 or faster
OO2: goal = 0:51 or faster
MZ1: goal = 1:01 or faster
MZ2: goal = 1:00 or faster
MZ3: goal = 1:53 or faster
WFZ: goal = 1:47 or faster
DEZ: goal = 0:43 or faster
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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Some useful tips, though hexediting them in proved to be a MAJOR pain (had to redo the boss fight in Chemical Plant Zone 2 as well). Chemical Plant Zone 1 is now just *barely* finished in 17 seconds (a few more frames and it'd be 18). I've also just hexedited in some higher quality end-of-zone seizures. :)
Current status:
EH1: 0:18
EH2: 0:36
CP1: 0:17
CP2: 0:51
AR1: 0:19
AR2: 0:40
CN1: goal = 0:26 or faster
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xebra wrote:
I showed your vid to the S2 champ at TSC and he made these comments while we were discussing it:
- AR1 and AR2 should be at the top of his improvement list
- MZ3 could be improved considerably if he were prepared to take a hit or four
- point of interest: he doesnt like the ceiling jump technique
- i suspect it isnt necessary to spindash that much [in the AR2 boss fight]
And we both think you need to abuse spindashing more.
I believe it goes without saying that I will be improving ALL of the levels, though Metropolis and Wing Fortress won't improve as much since that's around when I started using frame advance.
I agree completely about AR1 and AR2 - these are the next levels for me to do, and I plan on improving them by quite a bit (as well as using minimal spindashes on the boss); dunno what you're talking about with MZ3, though, or what the "ceiling jump technique" is...
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The reason I only hit him 2 times while he was launching is because I hit him 1 extra time BEFORE the launch.
I don't believe it's possible to hit him much faster than I did, at least not enough to get in 12 hits before he launches out of range.
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