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Link to videoUser movie #15442109253932397
Had this done for a while, figured I'd show it off. 1653 frames faster than HTWT's submission so far. There are some known improvements scattered throughout the stages, mostly lag reduction and tiny optimizations.
A couple of quick notes:
*1 known frame can be saved early on in Star Man's stage by using a trick to fire a shot between slides. I didn't know about it until later on.
*Star Man's pattern can apparently only be manipulated through killing extra enemies, which is why I kill that extra enemy in the spike section compared to the last userfile I uploaded for this game.
*Rush Coil is used more and earlier. Rush placement can be optimized.
*Lag can be reduced in the last section of Bright Man's stage (the dark section with moving platforms).
*The zip in Napalm Man's stage saves 6 frames.
*Delaying the last hit on Napalm Man until he jumps saves time over killing him on the ground.
*Stone Man can be manipulated before entering the boss door by just waiting. It took a long wait to get a decent pattern and I lose quite a lot of time here. Thanks, asshole. Waiting to kill him in the air saves frames again.
*There are 109 less lag frames up to this point, though as I said there's more known lag reduction to be done.
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Dyshonest wrote:
It just feels very arbitrary to have both there when they both skip levels via memory corruption...
...My example before still stands - it boils down to "well this run skips stuff too. It just doesn't skip as much!"
But no levels are skipped in the SMW warps run. None. Not a single required level is skipped. Parts of levels are skipped using glitches, sure, but the run doesn't actively use memory corruption to outright pass over levels.
If a run were submitted that, say, uses memory corruption to skip YI4 and only YI4, as in actually going straight from YI3 to Iggy's Castle, then that would be more fitting of what you're saying. It'd skip something, but not everything it possibly could. If it were that, then I could understand the argument. But the currently published warps run just uses a glitch to beat a level a lot faster.
Now, if both memory corruption glitches required the exact same setup then it might be more of a gray area, but as far as I can tell it's two different setups with the only thing in common between them being Yoshi. If eating a Chuck could either give you an orb in the item box OR crash the game to open bus or whatever and allow you to edit the game, then your argument would make sense because that would actually be the same glitch. But it's not the same glitch.
You say it's "hyperbole" for us to think your argument could extend to many other runs, but is it really? Even your ALttP example doesn't involve memory corruption... Actually, I could argue that under your definition, the all dungeons run would be obsoleted in favor of the glitched run because both runs use multi-directional input. One just uses it to skip most of the game and the other uses it to go faster. Two different applications of what could be considered the same glitch.
Plus, it's a loaded example to begin with. If ACE were found for ALttP and a run was made that was shorter than the current glitched run, then it would be published and obsolete the current glitched run given that there would be absolutely no reason to have a separate glitched category. Even Super Metroid with its thousands of categories (there's some actual hyperbole) has only one glitched run now.
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CoolKirby wrote:
As I explained in this post in the "Yar%" discussion thread, the game doesn't count completion percentage and obtaining these easter eggs doesn't change the game, meaning these two runs are just slower any% runs.
Well, there have been runs published that go out of the way for easter eggs: [2335] Genesis Phantasy Star IV "all sidequests, Blast from the Past" by janus in 1:59:10.18
That being said, this and the other run still feel really arbitrary. It's a flower and a small reference to a previous game. To me that isn't enough to warrant another category, especially because all it amounts to is a bit more aimless shuffling around. There are other games where categories like this would be much more appreciated... This just isn't one of them.
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Dyshonest wrote:
Masterjun wrote:
I fail to see how it is possible to say that all memory corruption glitches are the same.
Because when it gets down to it you're basically saying "well this run skips the whole game", "well this one skips most of it, but some of it is still remaining".
It's just a bit redundant to have one run with total skipping and a second, coexisting run that doesn't skip "as much". The only coexisting run should be one without such skips.
Yeah, I agree, let's un-publish every any% or warped run for every game that has ACE potential or a low% run. While we're at it, let's un-publish the SM64 70 star run because it gets 70 more stars than necessary and 50 less than the whole game. Say goodbye to several Super Metroid runs since they get unnecessary items and go to areas not in the ACE run. So long, any run that strays off the absolute fastest route to get something that would heavily speed up the run. You're supposed to skip as much as possible, not just most of it.
You shouldn't even be able to take the warped route intended by the developers, entering each intended level and playing it in some way and possibly ending them early due to some form of 100% consistent and easily replicable memory corruption! Because all memory corruption is exactly the same, and there's another run that does entirely different things and crashes the game and rewrites the game code and calls the ending! That's the exact same thing as using Yoshi to eat an enemy, right? Of course it is!
Your logic is absolutely brilliant and not at all idiotic and uninformed! The future of TASvideos is upon us, and it starts on page 127 of the Super Mario World thread!
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You stop the search when you have the absolute best RNG you can get. "Good enough" should only be in the vocabulary of console speedrunners. "Overkill" in the TASing world is almost expected at this point.
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TASeditor wrote:
Take the time you need and don't rush trough it. It is also highly recommended to watch the progress of your movie from time to time, you might spot an improvement. Also do not think, after you completed a segement or a level, that it is perfect. Try different strategies. That's the most common mistake newcomers make.
To add on to this, after you finish the entire movie, open up another emulator window and start a second movie aiming to beat the one you just finished. Optionally, after you finish the second movie, do the same thing with a third movie, and keep going until you can't possibly make any more improvements.
Your first attempt is never your best. Neither are your second and third attempts, for that matter. Take your first attempt, upload it to the userfiles, find or start a thread for the game and post the run as a test run. Get some advice, see what you could possibly be doing better, and get to improving. It's much easier to improve something that's already there than it is to go in blind and make a run from scratch.
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Guga wrote:
Eszik wrote:
How isn't this elitist? He's basically saying "I am better so I can tell "sinners" (wtf is this word btw? TAS isn't a religion) what to do. I am as well the only one that can do so‚ because I am justice".
That has a name, it's called humour.
More specifically, it's over-exaggeration for the purpose of comedy. It's not actually a two-person crusade to bring down the sword of justice and punish the non-believers. It's just playing something up to be funny.
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zeromus wrote:
I suspect your security software is interfering with the IPC between the programs or causing the snes core to malfunction and freeze for some reason, or the snes core exe gets corrupted on your system. Try disabling something like that.
Ah, that did it. Everything's working fine now. Thanks!
EDIT: For the record (in case anyone else has this issue), it was a problem with Avast. Adding an exclusion to the Bizhawk folder fixes it. and yet nothing will fix how fucking awful all antivirus software is
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zeromus wrote:
which SNES rom? WOrking fine for me over here
I've tried multiple. Specifically, Run Saber, Actraiser, Alcahest, Majuu Ou, and I just tried Super Mario World and got the same result, so I'm assuming it's all of them for me.
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Was it even really mean or elitist, though? Elitist would have been "Wow, you fucking suck compared to me!" Mean would have been "Haha, this is the worst TAS ever and the author should kill himself!" And it wasn't even too mocking, either, aside from a couple mild "Wow, this is really bad" moments.
There have been far more mocking things said in discussion threads. There have been far more mean things said on the forums. And there are FAR more elitist people lurking around and feeling superior. Honestly I was expecting worse in the video judging from what was said in the OP, but it was actually pretty tame.
Warp wrote:
People pour their time and work on these runs. People pour their souls on these runs. People share their work because they themselves enjoy it, and would like others to enjoy it as well.
Do they, really? This run was done at full speed and skipped a lot of really obvious things even at the time it was made. The backdash speedtech was already discovered and used in a run, plus even in RTA backdash-cancelling would've saved time, the only drops he manipulated were the ones required to get the best ending, it's SEGMENTED for God's sake, he grabbed items he didn't need, he took bafflingly long paths and failed to use known glitches at the time (even failing to use a glitch HE knew about and MENTIONED in the submission text). I can get someone doing an unoptimized RTA-style run of a game just for fun, but the moment it's put onto the internet for everyone to see it basically becomes fair game. Plus, this was submitted to the site for comments and criticism. It's absolutely fair game.
You can't just assume that everyone puts effort into their runs and that makes them immune to criticism or what you apparently construe as "mockery". Did that guy who submitted six shitty Mortal Kombat runs put any effort into them? Probably not. Did that guy who submitted the 1000000 point SMW run put any effort into it? No. Effort goes far beyond just opening up an emulator and playing a game. If the video were heavily criticizing, say, a high-quality published run, then you could definitely make the argument that the author put their heart and soul into the run. But this wasn't published, it's low quality, I'm pretty sure it was even slower than the RTA record at the time, it's clear the author didn't study the game or even know it that well, and yet it was still submitted.
People don't share their work because they want other people to enjoy it. Some may, but you're giving people too much credit. Some people share their work because they think it's perfect and are narcissistic enough to expect everyone else to think the same way. Some people share their work because they want attention and fame.
Warp wrote:
This is a hobby. People do it because they like it, and they find it entertaining and rewarding. For many it's a labor of love. It's doing it for the art, rather than for profit.
And this thread and video don't fall under that category? What separates this from a TAS aside from the content provided? I assume they're going to be making these videos because they like it and find it entertaining. It can be considered rewarding if people weren't spineless and could learn to take a bit of harsh criticism. Since it appeals to a niche, there's no profit to be gained, and it's clear that there's going to be some more effort put into the videos... hell, probably more effort than was put into the runs being featured. So why is this not okay?
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This happens whenever I try loading an SNES ROM with the Compatibility Core. It's a fresh install with no changes made aside from switching cores. Performance loads up just fine from a fresh install but like the earlier reported N64 load error it throws an exception when using a prior config.ini
EDIT: I just noticed that the compatibility core EXE was still running a while after I closed Bizhawk, and upon further inspection when switching to compatibility core two identical processes are opened (performance only loads one).
The process still running after closing Bizhawk is apparently situational, I happened to open Task Manager to check something else out and noticed the compatibility core process still there and I haven't been able to reproduce it.
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Shit, I did come off harsh earlier. My bad.
I do like the idea, but I still feel like the commentary was a bit lacking. Maybe it's just because I've played a hell of a lot of Aria of Sorrow and I saw a lot of mistakes that weren't mentioned. Who the hell knows. Either way, a co-commentator with a lot of knowledge on the game would probably help out quite a bit if your goal is really to point out as many flaws as possible.
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Y'know, I always thought Retsupurae would be a thousand times funnier if they just blandly pointed out all the faults in the videos, never made any jokes, and kept saying "I don't know this game" and "I've never seen this room" every 3 minutes. Thanks for confirming that thought.
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It's just for the verification movie, isn't it? The verification movie unlocks everything necessary and a submitted run wouldn't actually have any cheats attached to it, it'd just start with the SRAM generated from the cheated verification movie. Or am I mistaken in all of this?
I honestly think as long as the run itself remains Action Replay-free, then a verification movie should be allowed to use cheats to unlock anything that can be obtained normally: New Game Plus, different game modes, custom parts in this game or whatever. It would save time and hassle on runs that require hours-long verifications (such as the RE4 Mercenaries run that seems to be a verification nightmare).
But again, if AR codes leak into the run itself, then that shouldn't be allowed.
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Hey, if we can have a thousand different acceptable categories for Super Metroid (including categories with virtually no differences between them) just because the community accepts it, then why shouldn't this be allowed under that same clause?
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Okay, forget what I said about the pickup drops being "fixed": Easy difficulty drops much more pickups than the other difficulties. I wasn't looking for that kind of difference, I was mainly focusing on enemy health, so I don't know if there are more drops in Normal than in Hard, but there are definitely a lot more pickups in Easy.
That's it. There are no other differences. Boss and miniboss health stays the same across all three difficulties as far as I tested. I couldn't play through the whole game three times because of time reasons, but at the very least all the bosses in the first two levels have the same health across difficulties.
So basically, there's no reason at all to change the difficulty in a TAS. You get enough health on Hard to be able to take damage in the right spots, and there's only two places in the game where you can use bombs: One on the first miniboss in Bruford, since you can get 7 hits on him before he retreats into the wall and using a bomb immediately after the 7th hit saves about a second or so over waiting for him to pop back out so you can attack again, and one on the last boss to end input early.
Though, ending input early (like the published trainwr- I mean run) means you don't get to the end credits ASAP: It's faster in-game to just deliver the last couple hits yourself, so if you're pedantic about that sort of thing then there you go, have some validation.
Something else I noticed while testing: Apparently using a bomb attack increases the boss/enemy HP value by 2 (counting for 2 hits on the enemy or boss listed) when there are no enemies on screen. I'm guessing that's how the attack hits for 3 damage: The bomb attack itself hits for only 1 damage and the HP value just increases by 2 to account for the extra damage. I dunno, I just thought it was kinda interesting.
though i'm secretly hoping someone can do something awesome with that knowledge.
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grassini wrote:
i'd rather see no tradeoffs for vault,i will vote No if it comes down to this only.
I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Are you saying I should just skip all the lag reduction bullshit and try to make an entertaining run or are you saying the opposite? Honestly, I'm hoping it's the former. It kinda just hit me that if I try to reduce lag in the autoscrollers, then there's no reason why I shouldn't reduce lag as much as I can over the course of the entire game (which means dashing back and forth while waiting for enemy invincibility to run out). It seems like an all or nothing thing.
I don't know. The tier system stresses me out so much sometimes.
solarplex wrote:
(values and Good Things)
Ah, lovely, these will help me immensely! Yeah, Superman's hitbox when flying is pretty awful. Actually, his hitbox in general is pretty awful. Actually, all hitboxes are pretty awful. Actually, this game is pretty awful.
Admittedly, I haven't been in much of a Supermood to deal with this game for extended periods of time (see above, also I've been shifting my speedrunning focus to RTAs recently), so I'm not sure when I'll have a new WIP up. Possibly soon. Who knows.
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Blechy wrote:
Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the difficulty level changes in this game? It doesn't seem to affect default health, continue count, or enemy spawns. Is it maybe drop rates/boss health?
I'm only a year late to answering this... Eh, not the latest I've ever been.
I remember doing some testing after finishing the currently published run and finding out that it most likely doesn't have an effect on anything that would be noticeable in a TAS or speedrun, and I couldn't even find any information online relating to differences between each difficulty.
I think drop rates are mostly "fixed", in that there may be slight variations but for the most part the same enemies will almost always drop the same pickups. Boss health is the only thing I can think of... Maybe only the end bosses of each level, since I don't think it affected the sub-bosses in Taj Base from what I remember of my testing... I'll have another go at testing difficulty differences since I'm most likely coming back to the run very soon. Every time I look at my avatar I'm just reminded of how much can be improved in that run.
The new run might end up being on the easiest difficulty if boss health is affected, since I feel like boss battles drag on much too long and don't really give enough room to be entertaining, unless your idea of entertaining is "Wow, that glowy green guy spin-jumped into that huge dragon 20 times!"
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Yeah, the DSS glitch is just the glitch that allows all card combos to be usable with just two cards. It's used in pretty much every CotM run for the Pluto/Griffin combination (and in the warp glitch run for the summon zip to Dracula). No idea why those obsoleted no-warp runs are labelled no DSS glitch because it's the reason they're as fast as they are.
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This happens whenever I try loading an SNES ROM with the Compatibility Core. It's a fresh install with no changes made aside from switching cores. Performance loads up just fine from a fresh install but like the earlier reported N64 load error it throws an exception when using a prior config.ini
EDIT: I just noticed that the compatibility core EXE was still running a while after I closed Bizhawk, and upon further inspection when switching to compatibility core two identical processes are opened (performance only loads one).
The process still running after closing Bizhawk is apparently situational, I happened to open Task Manager to check something else out and noticed the compatibility core process still there and I haven't been able to reproduce it.