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Alyosha wrote:
DwangoAC has kindly agreed to do console testing of FlapPing for me to check the ENAM delay case sometime soon. This is the last thing I need checked before getting the code committed to BizHawk.
...
So this simple test produces some pretty easy to verify results. Current BizHawk loses, and the version with ENAM delay wins. As an aside this is the fastest win case I have found so far in Stella. Now all that is needed is to see what happens on console.
dwangoAC just console verified the ENAM delay run on stream: Exact same result as your second video.
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So, uh, is this a complete run of the game or is this like that "Spore Spawn%" Super Metroid run that we rejected for not being a complete run of the game?
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F4LL0U7 wrote:
With Masterjun's VVVVVV TAS submission saying that he used 2.0 and also that he used a multithreading setting (I think it was allow or wrap).
I am about 90% sure that the version choice was intentional in terms of gameplay/glitches, not because more recent versions don't work.
But yeah, there's really no reason not to try it out yourself first. Make sure to report back and let us know if it works or not, in case others want to try.
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If you take a look at the submission itself, Krazy Ace was actually initially accepted to Moons. The submission voting was actually quite positive as well, good enough audience reception for Moons in my opinion. I'm not entirely sure why it got pushed down to Vault, there's nothing that really explains why except for a couple comments at the end of the submission thread that just say it happened.
As was stated earlier, it's highly likely that I'll be taking a second look at this under a new set of rules currently being discussed, so everyone can rest easy and feel accomplished over defending the artistic merit of a game where a soft, chewy candy comes alive and decides that the best use of its waking hours is to play a rousing round of miniature golf.
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Warp wrote:
Please define "sports game" in this context (ie. in the context of TASing, and admission to vault.)
Not to state the obvious, but a "sports game" is a game that depicts the playing of a sport. In the context of TASing/Vault, it is a game that is mostly defined by a timer (i.e, a football game).
Why are "sports games" not eligible for vault? How does this particular game fulfill those reasons?
As I said, most sports games aren't defined by how fast they can be completed. There's a start point and an end point, clearly defined by a timer that needs to run out. This ultimately makes sports games too trivial for Vault, in that there's no actual way to shorten the length of the "game" being played.
This is not true for all sports games, of course, this one in particular being an exception, but that doesn't mean the game is complicated enough for site publication.
If the game is pretty linear, and has a definitive and clearly-defined ending, isn't that all that's needed for vault? Why does it matter if the theme happens to be based on some real-life hobby?
It doesn't matter in some cases. We just have a general rule that prevents sports games from being Vaulted since most of them don't exactly apply in the context of speed and obsoletion. What mostly matters here is triviality: Should someone submit a run of an "action" game where literally all you do is hold right and win, we would likely reject that as well for triviality. The fact that this is a sports game means it's just subject to slightly higher criticism in terms of the entertainment value it provides.
I'm not necessarily agreeing with the overall rule about sports games, I do actually agree that it should only apply to timer-based sports (football, basketball, soccer, etc) rather than the full spectrum, but as the rule stands now, all sports games have to be given equal treatment. Perhaps we'll discuss this behind the scenes, but as far as I'm aware this is the only time in recent history where this rule has actually been sort of a contested issue.
Would you reject a linear FPS game that just happens to depict paintball rather than an actual war, just because paintball is considered a kind of sport in real life?
A specific paintball game, yes, would be subject to the sports game clause and would need to be entertaining enough to make Moons, but what you're describing is a linear FPS, not a sports game. What matters more for the criteria of "sports game" is how it's presented, not the fact that it contains a sport to begin with.
We wouldn't, say, reject a run of Dark Cloud 2 for its golfing minigame, because the primary experience of the game is an RPG. We wouldn't reject your theoretical linear FPS paintball game because, in theory, it wouldn't actually depict the sport itself. It'd just be like turning on the paint cheat in Goldeneye.
As it stands, this is just a minigolf game, quite clearly a "sports game" as I don't see any possible way to make minigolf not a sport, and the primary entertainment value is derived from the texture hacking. The only golf TAS that was initially accepted to Vault is, funnily enough, Ninja Golf, which is more of a sidescroller with occasional golf rather than a pure golf game. Krazy Ace was initially Mooned, I suspect it was moved to Vault before we had an official sports game ruling on it, but even if we had the rule back then, the run received good enough votes to make Moons as it was.
Like I said, we may revisit and revise this rule in the future, and as such this submission will be re-judged, but it's not exactly a top priority for us. We would need a real borderline case to actually push it up on the list for us, not a joke submission that can't actually be accurately judged off of audience feedback.
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I can't entirely tell what's going on with this movie. Just judging from the submission text, it looks to be related to the emulation rather than the game itself due to the nature of specifically needing the SRAM and not working correctly with soft resets.
Could someone (dekutony, xy2_, anyone else with DeSMuMe knowledge) look into this further alongside me? I'd feel more confident making a decision about this if I have a few second opinions backing me up/proving me wrong.
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Anyone who voted Yes to this run, was it solely due to April Fools' Day and the texture pack, or did you genuinely find the run outside of those things entertaining?
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/
Use Userfiles for movies like these. Never submit anything unless it's frame perfect and it beats all existing records. For example, you have to beat a time of roughly... 42 seconds for a new run in this category to be published.
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I'm assuming that's a joke as well, but as for my actual reasoning: I, nor anyone else, can conceivably prove that this run does reach the ending within the entire lifetime of humanity, the Earth, and potentially the universe itself. We can't accept it without verification that it is a complete movie, and since it's impossible to verify... Yeah, it can't be accepted.
GEG ends input 40 seconds earlier too if you wanna go into pedantic semantics
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diggidoyo wrote:
Also noted in the last page, is where I say I'm in favor of the rule and want it to remain in place, but you've conveniently skipped that part, and probably everything I've written in this thread.
Funnily enough, you've also conveniently skipped that part, because you're prolonging this useless argument instead of shutting the hell up about it and cancelling the run like you should have when you "decided" you were "in favor" of the rule.
If you're really in favor of the rule, then prove it by cancelling the run and ceasing to act like a spoiled child over it. You did this months ago during the fallout after the first submission, too, saying how in favor of the rule you are while simultaneously criticizing every aspect of the site.
This would be open to discussion if you actually had reasoning behind your arguments and weren't being so petty and whiny over it, but as long as you're failing to provide anything coherent, then we really have no reason to keep this discussion alive. Either you back down and save everyone the trouble or start acting like an adult and possibly turn this into an actual discussion instead of a temper tantrum.
AzureLazuline wrote:
come on everyone, the run is super cool but you're basically just arguing over nothing now :(
leave it on youtube where people will still see it, or look into resyncing it without the cheat and just making a special encode.
This is literally what we've all been saying this entire time, it's just that some people refuse to listen to these completely rational requests.
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diggidoyo wrote:
I'd contest that this run is NOT for people who don't know what a TAS is. Most TAS's wont be. That's what we have the star tier for.
Your arguments sound more like you're unwilling to make a decision on the matter, both now and in the future, and want to uphold the foundation by which a decision will never have to be made.
If that's how judgements are made around here, I'm thankful this is only a TAS.
Is it really this hard to understand "We don't allow cheats" after arguing in two submissions and at least once on IRC? It's about as grounded of a rule as we have here and it's not something we're ever going to budge from.
I've said this a thousand times before and I feel like I'll be saying it until the day I die, but your movie does not need to be published here. We're not the sole authority on TASing, publication does not make your TAS any more or less legitimate, it doesn't even give the movie more attention than it'll receive anyway. There are hundreds of TASes on YouTube and Nicovideo that get tons and tons of views and attention without even making it to the submission queue. If people want to watch it, they can watch it.
"Don't use cheats" is one of our most well-grounded rules, one that's never going to change in the future, mostly because it's quite literally the easiest rule we have to follow. We can never "make an exception" to this rule because all it's going to do is invite trouble. Someone will inevitably submit another cheated run, one with a more egregious cheat, and we'll have to strike it down, and then they'll complain that we accepted this run even though it uses a cheat, and people will think we "set a precedent" by allowing it once and it'll just blow up into another hellfire down the road.
I believe I said this in the last thread, but assuming we DO allow cheats someday, how the hell are we going to manage it on the site? We can't. There's no way we would be able to handle it. This run could easily be obsoleted by one that uses a cheat to increase Megaman's speed, and then that one could easily be obsoleted by one that increases Megaman's speed and makes all the bosses die in one shot. Every run on the site would just turn into unintelligible messes of cheats, since adding more and more would only make the runs faster. And then how do we handle obsoletions? Allowing cheats isn't so much a slippery slope as it is a slippery Mount Everest.
There is no "trial". There has never been one, because one has never been needed for such a simple concept to grasp. Our verdict was announced at the inception of the site, that verdict hasn't changed after 12 years of operation, and that verdict will never change in the theoretical dozens of years we have after today. If you can't handle this simple, easy-to-follow rule, either leave the site or don't submit runs with cheats. Hack this feature into the game, provide a patch that anyone can easily apply and have it work 100% consistently, and then we can properly judge the run for site publication.
But I guess it's easier to put effort into arguing for something that'll never happen than it would be to put effort into making something that quite possibly could happen.
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Okay, how's this for a branch name?
EDIT: "which probably invalidates the run but the fact of the matter is this is not a softlock so please don't call it a softlock anymore okay bye i love you"
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γ»γΌγγγοΌ
seebu suru?Save?
γ―γ
haiYes
γγγ
iieNo
You don't even need a Japanese keyboard to type it all in.
It's just simple hiragana/katakana, just look up a chart, match the characters to the romanization, hit that button in Google Translate, type in the romanization and you're basically good to go.
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Personman wrote:
Anyway, Samsara, I wasn't doubting that no one currently knows how to progress from this state. But the problem with something like this as opposed to a more traditional softlock is that the possibility space is very big - how do you know there aren't undiscovered glitches that can recover from this state and beat the game? Without drastically reducing the possibility space, for instance by causing all input to be ignored, it seems very difficult to verify a run like this.
You're right, I guess you just completely invalidated my joke April Fools Day submission. Oh, the agony.
In all seriousness, why would any of that invalidate the run if it weren't a joke...? We could never prove that 14% was the lowest you could get in Super Metroid low%, and now 13% was proven, and even still we can't completely prove that's the lowest possible. Sure, I can't fully, 100% prove that this is a softlock. However, with current knowledge, I can't prove that it isn't a softlock either.
We can't run the site on theoreticals. In terms of fulfilling a non-standard goal, we have to accept the current knowledge, otherwise we would never be able to publish anything that isn't any% or 100% due to there potentially being undiscovered glitches or tricks that fulfill the goal more clearly.
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Dwedit wrote:
You take control after replaying the TAS file yourself. If you can't control the game, then it's obviously a softlock.
I'm using softlock here as a situation you can't continue from, not making the game completely uncontrollable.
In this case, there's no way to escape the Clock Tower once you enter it this way. You can't reach any of the ledges without the double jump, and you can't even explore the bottom room because not only is the camera locked, but you can't actually progress down there without the slide. There's no way to zip out of there with a whip launch, either.
I'm uploading a quick, cheap video to show these off in a bit more detail.
EDIT: Here it is.
Link to video
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File replaced.
McBobX, I would have much preferred if you improved my input (which was only a quick, unoptimized test) instead of using it outright. That was my intention (as I said, the path I took most likely isn't the quickest). But, as Spike said, I had to add myself as a co-author since ~10% of the movie is now my input.
To the next judge, I recommend continuing to look at the input, as I still have the feeling that there's a lot of improvement left, especially in my opening section.
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It's less about how much time you put in per day and more what you do with that time. For a truly great run, you'll have to put in a lot of time over the course of weeks, perhaps even months, but how much you want to put in per day is purely your choice. All that matters is what you're doing with that time to make the run as great as it can be.
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It's just simple hiragana/katakana, just look up a chart, match the characters to the romanization, hit that button in Google Translate, type in the romanization and you're basically good to go.
WHO DID THIS