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I just provided a possible reason why you might not have seen any issues with the system. I never implied that you'd agree with me if you did see any issues and I never implied you were ignorant for not seeing any.
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Those two threads are the perfect answer to "Why aren't there more female TASers?" There most likely are, they're just choosing not to mention their gender because shit like that happens. "There are no women on the internet" on the first page of both threads. God.
Is it really that hard to treat everyone equally? This is a site for talking about emulation and speedrunning. Gender shouldn't matter.
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You're probably not seeing any flaws with the current system because you've never actively looked for any flaws in it. Even if flaws don't come up often, the fact that there are still flaws is telling, especially when the flaws come up consistently. If there were odd, unrelated flaws popping up every now and then, this wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem. The flaws that do pop up, however, are almost always the same.
The only difference between Vault and Moons right now is subjectivity, since both tiers have arguably the exact same requirements apart from the entertainment of the game. This leads to borderline cases like Hydlide, where a judge's opinion may go against the public opinion for one reason or another (and props to turska for explaining his reasoning later on in that thread). The fact that tiering is purely subjective is inherently negative, since getting thrown in the Vault is basically being told that people don't like your run. Look back through any Vaulted run and count how many people specifically say things like "This wasn't entertaining, throw it in Vault" and then come back and tell me that Vault is positive. The site and the community actively paint the tier as low-quality and non-entertaining, which is... you guessed it, flawed.
If there's always going to be subjectivity, why not take actions to reduce it instead of leaving everything the way it is?
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Honestly, just Male/Female covers pretty much everything (transmen and transwomen identify as specifically male or female and don't like being referred to as trans), and Other/I'm Not Sure are good alternate options that cover the rest of the spectrum without being discriminatory. More specific gender options can be added if anyone asks for them.
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It'd help more if it was displayed on the user's posts, near the post count/location and all that. I don't think too many people go around checking profiles to find out what gender everyone is, especially in a predominantly male community.
Male/Female/Other works fine.
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Yes, let's continue trusting the poll results, where 14 people voted that the flawed system is absolutely perfect without even bothering to post their flawed reasoning. Let's just ignore the valid points brought up in the thread by the people who actually give enough of a damn to express an opinion on the matter.
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The proposed new system would essentially be putting all the runs together, since it actually gives proper, set-in-stone criteria to Vault/Coins(?) and Moons and wouldn't leave anything up to opinion. An accepted run would be definitively Coins (by being specifically an any% or 100% run) or definitively Moons (by being a playaround or a "non-standard" category). The tiers are effectively equal, with awesome runs being contained in both, and more people being likely to check through both tiers instead of looking at Vault and thinking "Yeah, these runs are probably safe to ignore".
I'm not sure how anyone would feel slighted under the new system apart from not getting a Star, and even then I don't think anyone on the site is egotistical enough to demand a Star for their run.
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I don't think the Vault itself presents the runs negatively. I think it's a step back from that: The site presents the Vault negatively. Several authors, myself included, see Vault as negative due to how the site presents it as the "lowest tier", and thus in some way we're discouraged from making runs for fear of having them end up there. I know that's not the intent, of course, but implications can have as much of an effect on people as something that's clearly stated and set in stone. Changing movie descriptions wouldn't help too much if people aren't looking at the runs in the first place. For example, how often do you think people look up Olympic bronze medalists out of genuine interest? They could have wonderfully written Wikipedia articles (there's an oxymoron) or insightful and inspiring articles/interviews, but they're still mostly going to be ignored since people generally want the best of the best.
EDIT: That being said, I'm all for giving movies insightful descriptions, especially if random runs are going to be featured on the front page.
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Well, why not just have a "Random Movie" section for all Vault/Moon movies instead of specifically featuring Vault? That way, every run on the site that isn't a Star/Recommended has far more of a chance of being discovered. There are a lot of Moon runs that don't get a lot of attention, after all. 9/10 of the runs listed there are Moon runs, some of them having been published for over half a year.
I'd love to see more attention paid to Vault movies, of course, but singling them out feels more like an act of pity to me, and it leaves out all the nice Moon runs that are being skipped over. Plus, if the new system is implemented, a Random Movie section would be able to stay just fine.
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Featuring random Vault runs doesn't magically free them from the curse of being in the lowest tier. It'd just give more people a chance to see the runs and rate them ridiculously low scores like most Vault runs get. Also, it actually runs into the issue brought up by thatguy earlier: Assuming the front page is the first thing everyone sees, they'll see a "Featured Run" and think it's going to be great, and then it'll be Toobin' or Where's Waldo and they won't exactly have a great opinion of the site anymore. If another Featured category exists, I'd prefer if it showcased runs with high ratings, like 7+ average, as that would show off entertaining runs without driving off newcomers by showcasing Gotcha! The Sport.
I'm liking the feos/Warp tier re-organization idea more and more. It solves pretty much every problem I had with the Vault: The demotivating name and icon, the edge cases between Vault and Moons for a lot of runs, Vault runs not appearing in the Movies tab by default, Vault being the distinctly lowest tier and thus people assuming all the runs in it are shit... Plus, the new system basically retools Moon into a proper Demo/Playaround tier which is a huge plus in my opinion.
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feos wrote:
What?
...Now that I think about it, forget I said that. My point was that there could be things like Donkey Kong Country "ONG%" or Sonic the Hedgehog "all rings except for 394 of them" coming through, but I'm sure people would just ask for any really arbitrary categories not to be published.
As for everything else, fair enough. I don't think it's necessary for me to read the Judge Guidelines another time, though, especially when it's in response to a new system that might not even happen.
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How would obsoletions be handled for things like playarounds? Does this allow for more ROMhacks? If someone just makes up a brand new arbitrary category and people find it entertaining/optimal, does it still get published or does it have to have some sort of importance? Would there be a limit on new categories for games?
I'm probably seriously overthinking this, to be honest.
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Thank you, Mothrayas.
Warp wrote:
It seems to me that we may be reaching a consensus where the Vault tier will be renamed and the distinction between the new "Vault" and the Moon tiers will be changed to be about goals rather than about reception. So, in a sense, a big part of the current Moon runs will be merged to the "new Vault" (whatever its new name will be; "coins" seems to be a popular suggestion, but personally I find it a bit odd...) and the rest of the Moon runs will remain where they are.
Perhaps the poll options should reflect this possibility more clearly?
I think the "Rename Vault/change its appearance" reflects that possibility.
Speaking of, I kinda like that idea but I feel like it'd have to be really fleshed out to work: If the criteria is just "not any% or 100% for Moons" then how much would we be accepting? Would this be the (if my memory serves me correctly) often asked for Demo Tier/Playaround Tier or would it just follow the same criteria we have now? It wouldn't be like just renaming Vault to something more positive: It'd change the actual tiering system altogether, and if the guidelines and qualifications didn't change with it then I feel like it'd be somewhat arbitrary. A big step what I feel is the right direction, but still somewhat arbitrary.
thatguy wrote:
Now, imagine you are a newcomer to the site and have never heard of TASing before. You are instructed to watch a few stars and you will have your mind blown most probably, and your interest will be piqued. You might go searching for movies of the NES games you played when you were a kid, and stumble across "Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego?" which, under the new system, is categorised with a bunch of very entertaining movies...
-snip-
...For a person dipping his toe in the TAS waters, early exposure to WITICS could kill off all interest that person has. We HAVE to think of our audience over and above ourselves, and that includes giving newcomers the best possible impression of TASing that we can.
The mind doesn't work that way. If your first impression of something is positive, then your future impressions will ultimately remain positive even if you're exposed to the negative aspects. If you've eaten 10 great flavors of ice cream, one bad flavor wouldn't immediately make you hate all ice cream. You'd just avoid that one flavor from that point on. I've been around for 8 years, starting by just lurking when I was an idiot teenager and signing up a few years later, and only once in those 8 years have I seen someone honestly complain about a single published run destroying the integrity of the site, and that happened this month. I'm all for the "think of the audience" mindset but I really don't see your hypothetical scenario as a legitimate problem.
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People still seem to be under the impression that removing Vault means removing all the runs contained within.
Runs will not be removed or unpublished. This has been stated by site staff on multiple occasions.
What I meant by "removing Vault" was just removing the tier itself and merging all the Vault and Moon runs into a singular default category that still accepts all runs that would normally qualify for Vault. I apologize for the awkward wording. I'd appreciate if this were added to the OP (I can't edit it anymore) and the poll, as I think the voting reflects my accidental implication.
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Pokota wrote:
I think the problem is that it's far easier less work to submit a WIP to the workbench than it is to put a WIP into microstorage and post in the relevant thread, moreso since microstorage does not (yet) accept the new bizhawk playback format.
Counterexamples/counterarguments, please?
Userfiles require less effort than actual submissions to the site. In some cases, though, newer users submit runs to both userfiles and the workbench simultaneously, or submit some run to userfiles and a different run to the site shortly after.
I don't think it's because it's "less work" to submit a run to the site than it is to post on the forums: Newer TASers honestly believe they're putting in as much effort as anyone else. They're proud of their work and want to show it off, like a child giving their drawings to their parents to put up on the refrigerator. I just think they look at TASes on Youtube, think "I can do that!" and knock one out in a day or so before submitting to the site, disregarding any of the guidelines. They're the same kind of people who watch a video on Youtube and ask questions that are directly answered in the video description, except people here are generally nice to new submitters.
It'll just take some time for them to come around and hopefully start making quality runs. It wouldn't hurt if people got a little more involved in helping them out since it looks like most of them are non-native English speakers and most of the information on the site is in English, but given that we have multiple counter-examples there's definitely a possibility of more turnarounds in the futue.
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Yeah, it looks like you're gonna have to go the entertainment route. Sometimes you just can't beat determinism. It's the reason why I stopped working on Splatterhouse.
I wouldn't stress out too much over how to entertain: Just do what you think is awesome or funny and other people will usually agree.
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hegyak wrote:
On the positive, the valut does allow "bad" games to be submitted and accepted.
On the negative, vault runs get less attention then their Moon and Star brothers.
I feel like the negative there outweighs the positive: We can still accept "bad" games using the Vault guidelines without needing to put them in a lower tier that hardly gets any attention.
I'm having trouble putting all my thoughts into words, so a full rambly post will have to wait until tomorrow, but my main problem with Vault is how much negativity it implies. I know it's not intentional, but it's still there in my opinion. "Vault" as a name implies that the runs are just going to be locked up and forgot about. "Vault" as the lowest tier implies that the runs are comparatively low quality compared to Moons or Stars and thus aren't worth watching or rating. "Vault" as a tier in general imprints a certain kind of bias on the viewer, and post-publication ratings plummet because of it: People will even rate Vault runs low on technical quality, when the entire point of the tier is to showcase runs that are high technical quality but may not be entertaining. Aesthetically, Vault is the only major tier that isn't part of the Mario theme. The icon is dark and grayscale, whereas the other icons are bright and cheery. It's jarring to say the least.
If we're going to keep the tier, I'd at least recommend changing the name and icon. Something like Mushroom or Flower would be consistent with the Mario theme and have a lot more positivity attached.
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It's been a while since the Vault was introduced, and the recent Hydlide submission has called the system into question. A few valid criticisms were brought up regarding tiering and there was a suggestion that a discussion thread be made. I've held off on making the thread since I figured it should be posted by site staff, but I got indirect permission to post it... So, here it is.
How does everyone feel about the Vault tier or tiering in general?
What's good about it?
What's bad about it?
Should we keep Vault or remove it?
I'll post my thoughts separately after I write them up.
----
Mod edit: Added poll. -Mothrayas
Note that by "removing the Vault", what is meant is just removing the tier itself and merging all the Vault and Moon runs into a singular default category that still accepts all runs that would normally qualify for Vault.
Runs will not be removed or unpublished.
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adelikat wrote:
Lastly, for every inconsistency someone has pointed out, there's a 100 examples of the system working well and as intended. Given the amount of content and the fact that this stuff is subjective, I'm very happy with that level of success rate. I haven't seen enough examples to suggest anything other than an overwhelming success of this system.
I'd still like to see the rest of the community's opinion on the system, because as a outside observer/non-staff member I haven't seen enough examples to suggest that the system is actually succeeding. Maybe it's working well from your perspective or other peoples' perspective, but it's clearly shown in the thread that not everyone thinks that way. I've personally only seen it negatively, and I will fully admit that may be because I've been against the system from the beginning and I just don't remember any of the positives.
That's why I want the opinion thread. Multiple people have said they feel there's a need to re-examine the tiering system, and honestly it wouldn't hurt at all to do so. I can't personally think of any positive aspects, but I know I'd be able to consider them if I saw other people talking about it. It's a discussion worth having, I think, especially now that it's been a while since the implementation of the system and we can look back on everything.
I do agree about the ratings, though. I'd love for more people to rate movies reliably, but as it stands post-publication ratings are rare and usually too extreme to judge fairly.
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kirbymastah wrote:
TheMG2's point is that they didn't bother looking up information themselves (when they claimed they would), which is documented very well on m2k2 and has been mentioned countless times to them.
Although to be fair to itspersonnal, why should he give them a link to the website if it was already mentioned so often and they didn't bother?
got4n, to the best of my knowledge, is a new addition to the team and may not have caught up on the thread at that point. Plus, to someone brand new to the mechanics of the game (or the game itself, even), they may not have even known what to look up even if they had the link to M2k2. Asking someone about their own video and their own strategies is the quickest way to get the answer you're looking for.
His response could have just been a direct link to a video explaining the scan dash, or a thread on M2k2 about it or however things work there. And sure, it could have been a nice response at the time, but regardless of the answer he gave, it's absolutely disgusting that he'd use that innocent question as a way to belittle the team and essentially call them all idiots. That's the issue at hand: Not what happened at the time, but what happened here in public. You absolutely shouldn't be defending that outburst.
NOW I'm gonna ignore this thread for a while so I don't get any more stressed out.
EDIT: You (kirbymastah) seem to understand, and props to you for that. It's just tiring to see the same links to M2k2 several times per page. You might interpret it as helpful but I still can't help but see it as a declaration that you're not going to actively help, especially given the frequency of the links and how multiple people have actually said it's a waste of time. You don't have to copy-paste information here, but if someone asks a question that you know the answer to, it wouldn't hurt to just answer it or at least provide a direct link to a forum thread/video explaining the concept, which it seems like you're willing to do.
I just wish the others could be like that.
Alright, I'm gone.
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TheMG2 wrote:
If they had read the documentation site that is metroid2002 (like we asked), or kept in mind the techniques brought up to them earlier in the thread, they would have probably came up with the answer without having to contact itspersonnal. As it is, they're wasting people's time.
Or, you know, he could have answered the question nicely or at the very least provided a link to the information instead of being a complete douchebag and publicly belittling got4n and the rest of the team.
Let me just say this: If you're not going to give them any information yourselves, then shut the hell up and let them do whatever they want. You don't deserve any creative control over their workflow or process if you're not going to be actively helpful.
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got4n wrote:
Samsara wrote:
got4n wrote:
Samsara wrote:
ALAKTORN wrote:
I get the feeling every single player that submits a terrible TAS as his first attempt and then gets taught by posters never goes on to learn anything. Is there a counter-example of that?
Rocky start, but the Rayman 3 and NSMBWii runs pretty much proven you've learned from your past mistakes. Haven't seen that in... well, any other TASer really.
Now if only that kind of #toptierturnaround can happen in some of the more recent submitters...
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