Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
Thing with pot clancer is, like I said, there might be variants in patterns - but from what I've seen, the pattern you get with one of them will be the pattern for the other two as well - so really, your ideal sequence for one is going to be your ideal sequence for the other two as well... also, when I was playing around, I was able to stay in the air for very long periods of time if I could guess where the rocks were going to drop... the occasional up boost was all I needed (generally after 'freeing' a rock)... you'll see what I mean... but it looks pretty neat in my opinion... I look forward to that part in your TAS =P
As for day of - do whatever you like... in real time, I do all the dash events first because I hold the controller differently ... but that isn't an issue for you - so do whatever you like =)
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
Comicalflop wrote:
There's actually some luck manipulation in the other bosses.
-Wormin' obviously has manipulation. Even the smallest movement can make the exploding worm go left instead of right. A heavy source of desynchs when Hex Editing.
-Western World: I have a OHKO that I have been unable to ever reproduce with different factors. It's in my current movie. Basically everything from how fast you're going, to how high you go, etc. affects the positions of the clancers that you throw the gun-clancer into.
-Just like Migen, going into the lava will affect Flambee's 3rd sequence. Desynched once when hex editing.
-Chilly Dog does have some manipulation, not a lot though, but enough for me to make a difference.
-Toadly Raw is random.
-7 Clancer Kids is random.
-Inner Struggle is likely incredibly random. Varying what frame you enter probably greatly affects what words will appear, I think it's possible to make death not show up at all.
Eh? Wormin' left instead of right? Not sure what you mean, but I can consistently enter the stage and grab celes, then the worm? Doesn't seem too random...
Not sure about Western but i can consistently make him pop quickly?
3rd sequence in Flamebee is random as far as i could tell as well.
Chilly Dog can consistently be done in the same pattern in real time?
Toadly Raw as well, seems to follow the same pattern every time in real time
7 Clancer Kids - oddly enough, I've noticed that only the giant clancer beam thing is random... the pots actually seem to follow a set pattern in dropping the rocks... or maybe they have 2-3 set patterns... but either way, I've noticed a set pattern in particular that shows up a lot (I've been playing with this recently)
Inner Struggle is random but the words always come up in relevance to Marinas position...
When I say random, I mean there is no realistic way to (in real time) control the battle flow. Bosses like Wormin, Chilly Dog and Toadly Raw can be completely controlled right from the getgo stopping the boss in their tracks. In this game there seems to be certain ... techniques... you can incorporate to ensure an S rank/best time with little regard to random attack patterns and such. And even though Migen is random - by using the 'avoid fireballs' trick - you can consistently get an S rank... my point being that Treasure obviously tried to make it so that if you know what you are doing, it's possible to get an S rank with no worries about something 'random' screwing you over mid battle. So pretty much - Get the flow of battle going and you are set.
Of course if you let the bosses go outside of the sequence, they go seemingly berserk/random - but I don't think thats the issue at hand here and shouldn't be a concern.
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
Boss fights usually aren't bad ... there is actually very little luck manipulation in the other boss fights... though Lunar and this are the two worst levels for it... this one especially so.... I absolutely hate trying to get a good time on it =/
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
I'd go for real time... I'm actually disappointed my file has been tainted with the 13.98 abusing the text blocks. While this trick does offer a lot in terms of getting lower times, I think the complete lack of actual technique speaks for itself.
I am unsure if I'm even going to use this to improve times on on other levels and might force myself to get 13.98 or better on 1-02... personally, I think its pretty cheap and overall takes from the impressiveness of a run. Of course I'm not talking about TAS' but I think it applies to them in the same manner.
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
Im unsure if you'll be able to talk to them while sliding etc... sorry, but as of right now in 1-02, everyone I need to talk to pretty much has me go slightly out of my way. (Which is how I figure it will be beneficial to you). I'd wonder if with TAS precision if you wouldn't be able to simply touchdown, get the text box going and take off again. I can't really do that because of the odd placing of npcs that can talk to you and my inability to slide jump in extremely small areas.
Also, for a realtime run... this technique makes the run look like ass. But it DOES improve the time =/
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
There are special circumstances... some text you don't need to worry about while most you do. Right before I put Mischief Makers down last year, I specifically remember playing around with this. I let a text block at the end of 7 Clancer kids sit for like 3-4 minutes and still got an S grade of 4:5x.xx if I recall. I sat at the part where Leo was talking I think.
If I were to guess, I'd say that text outside of the game level doesn't add to the time? I guess Inner Struggle would be able to prove/disprove that idea. Maybe 7 Clancer Kids is just a special situation where Teran will be playable in the next level and not Marina?
Then again, talking to the kids in Rescue Act 1 either speeds Teran up, or while the text block is up time is stalled. If time DOES become stalled... I wonder if it works for Marina... I can think of quite a few levels where you might be able to abuse this.... Can you check this out? If it does work, I'll need to do 1-01 again... heh...
Edit: Alright, so I played around with it... if you are talking to someone mid level (activated by pressing L or R) you will not NOT have extra time tagged on. Talking to people on the way by will potentially save you ~ half a second no matter what character. Text forced on you does NOT add time as well. (If you sit on it and not advance). From the moment the text box STARTS to open to the point in which it is closed by the game, your level timer is stopped.
Levels like 1-01 and 1-02, you can't abuse this (luck Comicalflop... no redo :P) because the characters have some sort of animation they need to complete before you can talk to them. Clanpot Shake and The Day Before CAN abuse this though. Rescue Act 1 of course uses this. There might be others... but a quick scan through showed these levels would benefit the most.
And we welcome a new technique into the "Instruction Manual" of Mischief Makers =)
Edit AGAIN: Sorry Comical... you're going to be DEFINITELY redoing 1-02... I broke 14 seconds EASILY .... first successful run ended up being 13.98... in real time... not refined... and I can't make use of talking to the doctor like you should be able to. ~12 seconds should be quite manageable for you I'd assume O_o
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
I am pretty sure the kids don't move away from you opposed to cycling up the hill and running back down. If you don't do anything and just watch them, they just keep going around in circles. Although after disrupting their routine, I am unsure what what they do outside of the area you're supposed to dump them. Maybe that is what you are talking about (running away)?
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
6 seconds... =/
I was thinking 0.6 seconds... LOL (as is ~5.7x)... which I thought was a massive improvement... but alas, I was excited over a mis-read >_>
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
zdude255 wrote:
Finally found this for you.
Current Level Time
Unsigned Long
A61690
This is definitely the level time. It is tracked by some weird scale and each tick on this is approximately 2.543 microseconds. (2.543e-6) Finally I was able to beat your 1-1 time by 6 seconds or so ;-)
Not sure if this will help much, but it's here if you want it.
6 seconds?!?!?! Sweet geebus! Thats quite the improvement O_o
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
Shadow Byrn wrote:
True. I guess I mean just how exactly some of those damages work out. Like why is it that sometimes you do the same attack, but it deals different damage?
Treasure is (in my opinion) king of boss battles... they seem to put more focus in their boss battles than a normal developer would... they have all sorts of situational occurrences that can determine a bosses behavior/damage you can deal... sometimes these come in the forms of something as simple as "Hit boss at point X - deal optimal damage" and in other cases it could be something like "After x damage - no more damage can be dealt with y method" ... it really makes for interesting boss fights because each fight seems to have its own characteristics and 'attitude'
Hope that gives you a little insight
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
comicalflop wrote:
C'mon! All 3 of the Beast Sector's 2nd fights have beast machines that they ride that transform! Of course we need a Transformers quote.
My guess with Tarus is that when you throw the rock up and catch it again, it's spending more time in the air, and this is adding to the damage that the one single rock can do (maybe each time you throw it up and catch, you're adding on more damage it can deal). Or, it's an unintentional "sweet strat" that so many of the bosses have. Maybe not as you've told me this does not work in other fights (that we know of, but HP watching may reveal this affect in other boss fights too)
Well, what has me curious is that throwing the rocks up is sas beta doesn't yield more damage.. And where it is a OHKO... it's reasonable to presume its given a special property rather than actually increasing the damage it does?
As for Transformers... sadly, I'll have to admit to not seeing it in somewheres around the range of 20 years... Its been a long time (and I still have to see the movie as well >_>) But is there such a thing as too much Transformers? I think not, my friend!
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
If anyone can let me know what attacks do what damage, I can try to work out something with Lunar.... as Comicalflop already knows, this battle seems to have more to it than meets the eye... but i can't figure out what...
Also, I'm not sure how feasible this is, but can anyone check out the properties of Tarus and the rock? (For those of you uninformed, if you throw a rock up, catch it, and throw it at Tarus, you can OHKO him) It would be interesting to know exactly whats going on here?
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
comicalflop wrote:
I have a bit of a dilemma. I finally beat my 1-01 time of 6.35", something Deign and I had been trying to get for a while, and that we deemed impossible, but I finally beat it by 0.02".
Hmmm, I might have forgot to mention at some point in time... in MM you ca not get times of
xx.x1
xx.x4
xx.x6
xx.x9
that whole 60 fps thing :P
Anyways, I have a question regarding that... If you were to get to the end of the level and grab the star a little late to get say 6.40"... then grabbed it exactly one frame sooner, do you still get 6.40" or 6.38"? Do you have to shave those 2 frames to get the 0.02" difference? Or does the game simply just ignore those times?
I only ask because this information would let you know in advance whether you were looking to improve anything vs at least 0.02"...
As for redoing it, I think anything with a better end product is always nicer plus if you do it again, there is always the chance you'll reveal something you missed your first time through
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
I don't have a video of it... It happened only once on Clanball lift ... I was doing an extended slide jump to get over the first tall... pillar?... (where the two clancers in the floaty mechs are) and one of them shot at me... I'm PRETTY sure I ended up turned around grabbing the oncoming shot while I was close to the corner shaped like an upside-down L... I ended up going into the wall and popped out the other side... all this happened at the 12 second mark of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exoUMcAcLTk
You might also note that there is a triangular block at the top which at this point in time seems to be a likely culprit of our collision issues >_<
Edit: Thanks for the explination
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
While I'm not much into tas' that much... I am excited to see what times can be squeezed out of this game... especially worlds 4-5 (where Nitsuja left off)
Shedding some light on some of the theories that we developed solely based off non-tool assisted speedrunning will be nice as well as I'm sure it will only help the MM community as a whole (as few of us as there are)
Can you possibly further elaborate on the speed of slide jumping and boost grabbing? Like how long does it take you to achieve max BG speed? and those numbers you use - over what course of time will consistently and accurately BGing overtake a series of slide jumps timewise? When speed running on a console getting 3-4 perfect/near perfect BGs is about all you can realistically expect...
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
I think I answered this somewhere before, but especially in 3-1 - I'm sure the emulator was at fault - when asked about this before, I went back to see and the screen didn't move up nearly as far as it does on console where the bombable blocks are - so I believe the difference in the time was credited to not having to go as high... I'm pretty sure it was done with project64? I can't specifically remember - but I do know I didn't need to take time to stop and further up at those blocks where Nitsuja did in his WIP (If I recall at least)
Hope that helps
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
nitsuja wrote:
If you really want it to be available for anyone who cares, then post it or a link to it here instead of just saying you know something. It's bad forum etiquette to publically announce that you are holding some piece of information hostage pending further communication.
Well, I also consider it rude to just come on and write to my hearts content about whatever nonsense that might or might not benefit a tas run of this game - so I just make it known that my information is open to anyone who cares... also, I've never held information hostage, and must admit, the statement is pretty offensive (to me) considering I've done nothing but offer everything up to anyone whos ever cared... but either way, I'm not here to fuss whether I am or am not ignorant...
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=jVeysey
I believe that would link someone to my youtube profile which is contains videos of every level in mischief makers and each one is also the best time I have ever managed on a console... if anything in those videos is unclear, I'd be more than happy to explain whatever it is in question
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
Well, if I'm not mistaken, everyone is just finishing everything up now... I'm going to get below 33 minutes (10 seconds left) and then stop hunting for time saving techniques. The fellow doing the single segment is shooting for below 36 minutes, then I think he is pretty much done as well... but of course, I can't speak on his behalf, so I could be wrong. Either way, what I am trying to say is, nitsuja should be able to resume this game shortly should he wish to.
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
If I'm not mistaken, he's waiting to see what we all do after we are finished our speed runs... not that I blame him for waiting... who would want to start a run only to have to restart it every week or so due to some "amazing new find" ... not to mention some of the luck involved in this game must be a little more than frustrating for him... I think so far his Wormin' Up and Cerberus Alpha were beaten... Worm by half a second(not quite... around .4) and Alpha by 4 seconds... all because of newly discovered tricks that make them a whole lot faster and easier... as is in the past few months, we (the non-tool-assisted runners) have knocked about 2 1/2 minutes off of the 'best overall time' and although most of what we have done to knock that total down wouldn't have changed the TAS... some techniques would... and if I were in his shoes, I'd be waiting for all of this as well....
of course, I could be way off base and he's got some other reason(s) for not doing the run... in which case, ignore me :)
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
StrangenessDSS wrote:
Sorry, but "a friend of a random person on the internet" isn't a good enough source for me.
Well, I hope I am a fairly credible souce then...
Shadow Byrn wrote:
Do you know any of the details of the OHKO? A certain attack that was grabbed at a certain moment or things like that? I would test it myself, but I'm so busy with work that even posting here is hard to do!
In order to OHKO Tarus, when he jumps straight up (to make the rocks fall ) grab a large rock, throw it stright up, grab that same rock and toss it back at Tarus... if all went well, he will go flying across the screen and the battle will be finished... none of this magic "Throw into the ground" stuff though... there are 4 ways to throw him, and as far as I have seen, none of them result in enough damage to even come close to a one hit...
I've gotten around 12 seconds with this (12.02 I believe) so I'm pretty excited to see what nitsuja does with this information ^_^
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
Thank you for the quick reply ^_^
nitsuja wrote:
Exactly why I haven't gotten further than I was before, because those new techniques mean I have to start over again...
Sorry about that >.< I dont usually play with emulators, so most things are figured out on a console level, with human error involved... I guess it makes figuring things out a little slower
nitsuja wrote:
Well some directions are faster than others (it's faster the closer it is to straight down), and the B-button-twice trick makes a bigger difference than normal if you tap it really fast the first time, then hit it a second time as soon as possible, and keep holding that second press until the throw is completely finished. Also, it makes a difference if you are on the ground at the time, throwing when in the air is much slower.
Sweet, if I can get that going good, it'll help a lot
nitsuja wrote:
I know the boss/miniboss health in this game is not usually something simple like "3 hits left until the next phase"; each hit can do different amounts of damage depending on the speed (of the boss) at time of impact, the location (on the boss) of impact, and possibly other factors, depending on the battle. So maybe you timed your double-B taps exceptionally well on those times it took fewer hits, or did something else a little different about your throws. Also, this game is not above generating random numbers to decide how a boss/miniboss will behave, so it could simply be chance.
Yeah, I'm aware of how the minibosses/bosses take odd damage steps sometimes.... I am REALLY hoping its a timing thing and not a rondom occurance though :P
nitsuja wrote:
Could you describe the differences between how to do them?
From my messing around, I've found that (again, with human error involved) upC B repeat tends to get you more height, but slightly less distance whereas B (upC B) (starting with a grab) lacks A LOT of height but you gain distance... also, over at SDA Cape has a different way of doing them... something that makes the D-pad influance speed and momentum... I havent got it working well yet, so I can't really say exactly whats going on with those....
nitsuja wrote:
I would say they are the same, but I can't for the life of me figure out how you get 13.95 in 3-1, so I suspect I'm missing something about how to gain height faster than normal when doing a boost grab.
In 3-1, I wouldnt give TOO much merit to that... I believe I used Project as the emulator and the screen actually went up WITH me so I could see as I was going over the wall(one you bomb)... I've tried it on console, but obviously, I cant get Boost Grabs well enough to even make it partway up from the beginning... but as for when I did go over, I started with a slide jump, upC B style boost grabs (upC at the peak of my jump for the extra height)... but like i said, the game was doing things it shouldnt have and I would be concerned as to whether the tower was actually as high as it should have been... if you wanted to test for yourself, I'm pretty sure i was using project... but if it didnt have anything weird with the tower, my advice would be to grab cancel a little later and get more height out of your c boosts? hope that helps...
Joined: 8/16/2006
Posts: 24
Location: New Brunswick
hmm, this topic hasn't been active for some time, but I'd thought I'd stop in and ask a few questions/ see whats up with this run...
first off, I wanna say that the WIP was excellent and I hope this project hasnt been put away for a rainy day, second, nitsuja, you might want to check out SDA... three people are currently running the game, and a lot of new techniques are being discovered that will likely make for a few improvements here and there and as I'm running the game, a few questions have popped up that I can't seem to find the solution to... if nitsuja or anyone else can effectivly answer these questions, awesome... if not, well, thats ok too, guess I'll just have to let yous all know if I find the answers
1: Does anyone know what causes Marina to sometimes throw quite a bit faster than normal? I know pressing B twice speeds up the throw but when throwing something like the Mech at the end of Clance War (3-2) Sometimes the 2/3/4th Grab and Throws can be executed a whole lot faster than normal...
2: In the final battle, to dispatch of him quickly, one of my damage stages requires me to smash him into the ground 3 times without throwing him up... but sometimes he jumps away (obviously slower and more common) but on rare occassions on the third shake, he hits the ground and immediatly goes into his next stomp.... its much faster but has only happened to me a few times...
3: Do the different variations of the Boost Grab make differences in a perfectly executed situation, or are they just helping deal with the human error involved?
I know its a fairly lengthy post, I appologize....
again, thanks for any help anyone can give :)