Posts for Zugzwang

Posted: 11/15/2008 12:28 AM

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Zugzwang

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (57)

Joined: 8/15/2008
Posts: 34
Location: Sacramento, CA

Thanks for going into that much detail Nitrodon although I still can't manage to do it. As far as I can tell you need to be ahead of the sleeper before he forks right the second time. This makes him keep going up. Then pause so that he passes lolo and you are meeting the conditions at the top? Bah. too many things to consider and perform. I'll have to wait till I see the TAS of it then replicate it ;) Yay. On positive note, I can confirm what I thought about 8-5. Sorry Baxter beat you to it! By doing the second half of the level identical to before but the begining with the up-dodge fot the knife guy it saves 1 step. It also saves a little more time because I dont have to wait for the knife men to pass when pushing against them. The Current TAS is 177+ to the chest this is 172 now a 5+ step improvement The total now is -14 3/4+ steps This video I took at 4am. My wife woke up to ask me what I was still doing awake. HA, so I kept some of the attempts because of the silly comentary we had. Yes... I might be crazy. The improvement is the last take. Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78sRPY8NwTU

Posted: 11/9/2008 11:40 AM

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Zugzwang

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (57)

Joined: 8/15/2008
Posts: 34
Location: Sacramento, CA

Nitrodon wrote:

I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting here. It doesn't seem to fit with what I know, so maybe we're talking about completely different things.

We are talking about two things because you know more than I do. As I wrote, I cant make the leeper go back down unless I take the top heart. (in realtime) You figured out a way you can make the him go back down regardless. I guess I was in doubt that it was possible.

His movement stack must be empty, and you must stay above him until 1/2 step below the top of the map.

The reaon I wanted to know the "condition" is to see if I could replicate it. I tried a few more routes, but still couldnt find anything in realtime. bummer.

That won't really do anything. The leeper will never stop moving until it falls asleep. If you mean pausing before anything moves, the leeper will start moving as soon as you do.

I was considering the latter. I thought that would probably be the case. I'm happy I brought this levels possibility to light. Good luck with finding another improvement!

Posted: 11/2/2008 10:22 AM

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Zugzwang

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (57)

Joined: 8/15/2008
Posts: 34
Location: Sacramento, CA

Very cool! I found that the top heart had to be taken before he would go back down. If you get to bottom right heart then the top heart (without pause) he has passed the upper left corner (too late). If you go out of order then you use too many steps. So your saying its possible, by some movement you make, that the leeper will go back down. So what is the "condition" that makes him do so? Is it possible to delay the movement of the leeper by pausing frames at the start of the level? That would attain you 1 frame ahead. Perhaps that last question is stupid. Remember I know knothing about TASing :)

Posted: 10/22/2008 8:34 PM

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Zugzwang

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (57)

Joined: 8/15/2008
Posts: 34
Location: Sacramento, CA

OK The video is here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQObbyfHnsI Dont look if you dont to find it yourself! :) I would imagine one reason why this is better is because I am able to block 4 enemies successfully with 1/2 pushes as opposed to the current video which blocks only 3.

Posted: 10/21/2008 8:25 PM

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Zugzwang

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (57)

Joined: 8/15/2008
Posts: 34
Location: Sacramento, CA

Thanks Baxter its nice to know you appreciate my effort. Oops, so I was looking for a level that you could probably improve and I found another myself! 6-1: I dont have time to post a vid, but perhaps you can find it yourself. It is less intuative than your solution is now, so im sure thats why it hadn't been found earlier. You dont get the lower middle heart first. Current TAS is 95 steps to the chest, this is 94 Anyway 1-3: I looked for a long time for a way to get the skeleton to go back down once he reached the top left corner to no avail. There is a vid on you tube where a guy made it go back down. Unfortunatelyit looks like it requires the upper heart to be taken first. This is a bummer because I believe there is about 14 steps of waiting in this level. 3-5: I found a completely different solution that happens to have the exact same number of steps grrr. 5-4: I use a sight variation just for fun with a bridge in the lower left corner. Should be the same unless theres a difference at a frame level. 7-3: Question, with perfect accuracy is it possbly to: get left heart go up middle get right heart shoot upper right fire guy shoot block madussa shoot upper left fire guy AND get chest before upper right hatches I know I cant do it realtime but its frame close 8-5: you shoud improve just buy using your stratagy for first 30 steps (which I cant do) but dont push the left emerald down at all. Then use my strat for the rest. Remember the timing is much easier the second half. 10-1: This is one level I didnt try to improve. The way I go is again a variation but the same number of steps. The solution is so good it would seem..... I think 8-5 is the best canidate.

Posted: 10/19/2008 11:39 PM

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Zugzwang

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (57)

Joined: 8/15/2008
Posts: 34
Location: Sacramento, CA

I decided to give you everything Ive got :) A total of five improvements: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj2idT37LfM 3-1: There are two faster ways to the chest than the current TAS 103 steps and 101 steps. of course the trick is getting the skeleton to follow you without pause. I happened to find it on the 101 step solution so I didnt have to bother looking at the other. I think I use the shot better ;) current TAS 105 steps to chest this is 102 1/4 -2 3/4 steps 3-2: HA! well at least I can say I found this one for certain on my own! The steps are saved because I dont have to go around the skeleton and I dont wait for the egg to float were you need it. Current TAS 61 steps to chest this 58 -3 steps 8-4: An intesting surprise, I loved this TAS solution but while trying to optimize the begining found this. Instead of going right twice(in upper left quadrant) I do it only once on the second pass and get the heart. Current TAS 117 steps to chest this is 116 -1 steps 8-5: THIS is my baby. considering how much time Ive spent on this level I am so pleased to have found this solution. There is a clip at the end that shows my original effort. What I found is a very good way to syncronize the knife men without losing time. Ultimately I realized I was spending longer timing my trips down on the rest of the level than it was worth. Consider you dont push either of the men down, negate them use your fastest solution you'll gain 12 steps. However in my solution without pushing them down I was using like 7-8 in timing. Granted it was faster than regular just seemed improve able. (not mention extremely difficult realtime) So It occured to me if i DO push one down maybe I wont need the have the timig issues. PRESTO I give away 5 steps and end up getting 7 theoretically. Well actually, because my result is an almost 4 step improvement! Current TAS is 177+ steps to chest this is 173+ -3 3/4 steps 9-3: You've seen this improvement in the previous posts. Unfortunately I dont think it will make it into my speed run :( I'm sick of restarting after I die here. I put my alternate solution as the final clip. Funny enough its the same steps as the current TAS Not exactly sure of steps but deduced it was -2 -2 steps Approx -12 1/2 steps A second note to 8-5: I'm certain the TAS can be improved beyond mine at least 1 step. Its likely that the solution doesn't involve syncronizing the medussas. Oh, and sorry about the video quality. Its what I got. CHEERS! Zugzwang Edits are in RED. I added so that you know what I was looking at in comparison

Posted: 8/26/2008 8:31 AM

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Zugzwang

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (57)

Joined: 8/15/2008
Posts: 34
Location: Sacramento, CA

Hmm maybe I started on the wrong foot here? I dont know how to TAS or how to make an fcm recording to compare frame counts. I do count steps. As you well know all the enemies in the game travel the same speed as lolo, so I use this often to gage how long I pause in reference to lolo steps. This is a snapshot from my FCE ultra (yes i've played in real time)

This is your TAS

As you can see your sleeper has taken one extra step while we are at the same point. Hence youve taken a step longer. Also, perhaps this is the reason why the sleeper NEVER follows me up the middle. Maybe because I'm further right sooner? He stays across the bottom and goes up the far right. I also dont need to take your timing step. (which of course I realized it was a timing step) So it looks like a two step improvement.

Posted: 8/25/2008 7:14 PM
(Edited: 8/26/2008 8:38 AM)

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Zugzwang

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (57)

Joined: 8/15/2008
Posts: 34
Location: Sacramento, CA

Well I'm a bit torn. Not because I don't want to tell you, but because I was hoping these solutions would give me incentive to finish my run quicker. I'll give the you the concrete one. As for the questionable ones I'll consider. 9-3 dont dance around with Lolo but wait half out into madussa's path. As the sleeper comes up the middle it "commits" itself the moment it turns left. You can use this to start moving up and right before it reaches you straight on. Saves maybe a step.

Posted: 8/22/2008 1:46 AM

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Zugzwang

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (57)

Joined: 8/15/2008
Posts: 34
Location: Sacramento, CA

Thanks Baxter. Its funny no one PMd me or mentioned this at the SDA forum. I just happened to find this about a week ago by chance. I remember finding this solution and thinking "now I'm sure this is faster than the TAS". After I timed it I was stupified that it was approx a 1/2 second longer. Obviously my timing wasnt very accurate plus I noticed from your vid I pause too long at the top of the island. As for being surprised this came from a non TASer, thanks, but it really makes sense. Personally I think more about a game away from it than playing it, so it doesnt really matter that its in "real time". I think thats true of many TASers Finally, its too bad you didn't wait for my speedrun before updating yours. I still have at least one more improvement :)