Posts for blackisto


blackisto
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Joined: 3/28/2017
Posts: 10
Thanks Patashu :) The link given by Patashu explains our findings with the glitch. I also tried to activate it in live play (but with a bunch of save/load states !) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C4a9W0hIp8 Now, all the ingredients are here to do a nice TAS of this game. Except maybe a decent TASing tool ? I don't know much if things have evolved. FBA-rr is really... not good is it ? In a TAS, one may expect to get a glitchless loop1 at ~225-228 millions including a 1-5 full chain -- a setup is now given in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLJjsSngYFk So this is glitchless. If you add the effect of the glitch, you may add approx 120 millions if you do a 'triple glitcho', and probably around 250 millions if you manage to do a "quadruple glitcho" (i.e. activate the glitch on all the Glitcho enemies in 1-6). I need to point out that quadruple Glitcho is very challenging, even in a TAS ! Then in the second loop, same story. Triple or Quadruple Glitcho in 2-6... Finally the gain from the glitch goes from 240 millions (triple glitcho in 1-6 and 2-6) to 500 millions (quadruple glitcho in 1-6 and 2-6) which means counterstop is possible in any case. Does anyone want to TAS this game ? That would be hype. I'd be glad to help regarding routes/what you may expect in terms of hits / score. But I am not a TASer...
blackisto
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Joined: 3/28/2017
Posts: 10
EDIT : The glitch has been found !!! will be made fully public shortly (give us some time to gather all pieces of evidence :) ) https://imgur.com/a/8ez3MHo We are writting a complete article. This will be VERY interesting for TASers because, in certain cases, the activation of the glitch is very hard even when you TAS !
blackisto
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Joined: 3/28/2017
Posts: 10
moozooh wrote:
blackisto wrote:
The setup to full chain stage 1-5 is now known. I managed to pull it alone using FBA-rr (with an unrealistic route for a live play); and the Japanese players found a way to get it in live runs.
Oh wow, now that is some good news! Do you have a video of that anywhere?
blackisto wrote:
The maximum bonus no longer gives any point after the 2-6 boss.
The reason why I'm thinking this is that in DOJ you get a very substantial bonus for carrying the max bonus through Hibachi, but as I'm not very active in the community anymore I don't know if anyone has ever confirmed if there's a similar one for DDP. On a slightly unrelated note, have you been to Stunfest this year? I heard fufufu played DOJ WL there for the big screen.
I do have a video, sent privately by WTN. I will not publicly post it but I can send you a link by PM. In addition, I will gladly share it with anybody who is willing to TAS this game or who is willing to do the 1-5 full chain in a live run (but good luck ... ;-) ) Regarding the maximum bonus, there is no such mechanism in DDP. All the points you get from the max bonus are obtained once you reach the 2-6 boss. Then you can bomb/die etc; and it will not change anything to the maximum bonus. It is still important to survive because of the NoMiss bonus on 2-6 (8 millions) and the NoMiss bonus on Hibachi (but good luck for this one in a live run), and the 10 Million point bonus per remaining lives once you clear the game. In any case, you have the right to bomb on the 2-6 boss/ the giant bee/ Hibachi, without being penalized. Oh, and yes I was at Stunfest. The whole STG crew was here and Fufufu's runs were absolutely stunning to watch. Replays are available if you go to the Stufest2 twitch channel.
blackisto
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Joined: 3/28/2017
Posts: 10
Thanks for your reply Moozooh. I was hoping that you would reply with your thoughts, and didn't wait for long :)
moozooh wrote:
That's disappointing, even if not unexpected. It also potentially means one could possibly trigger it in other places once the exact mechanics are known, so basically any score targets are off for a proper TAS until it's fully researched. That said, it should still be possible to reach some 790–800 million points not counting the extra score from the bug.
800 millions seems indeed possible in a proper TAS, without the bug.
moozooh wrote:
For triggering the score bug, maybe, but a TAS doesn't have to forget that; that is, local techniques do not in any way invalidate the rest. You could still score extra on certain stages this way.
Sure. I was indeed talking only about the bug. For a TAS, this is a different story, although I doubt that it would work because playing underpowered slows down the pace at which the hits increase when you laser a big enemy.
moozooh wrote:
It might also be the only way to full-chain stage 1-5 (at least in unassisted conditions), which I don't think has been solved by the Western community yet.
The setup to full chain stage 1-5 is now known. I managed to pull it alone using FBA-rr (with an unrealistic route for a live play); and the Japanese players found a way to get it in live runs. There is no need to be underpowered.
moozooh wrote:
Given the complexity of DDP and stage 3 design in particular, there might be quite a few loose millions to be discovered by applying a TAS-exclusive approach in addition to the score bug.
Agree. For example, a chain could be maintained from the stage 3 midboss, till the end of stage 3, while optimizing the bullet cancel section.
moozooh wrote:
Do you mean WTN has actually no-missed/no-bombed through Hibachi? I don't believe that. His previous score would've been over 760M if that were the case, just from the normal life/bomb bonuses.
The maximum bonus no longer gives any point after the 2-6 boss. The WR is essentially a run with no miss no bomb until the 2-6 boss; then no miss (but maybe some bombs) on the 2-6 boss to get the 8 millions NoMiss bonus; then 1 miss on the giant bee+hibachi. Without the bug, WTN believes that his theoretical maximum (with his strategies and a full nomiss) is 790 millions.
moozooh wrote:
This seems very likely. The basic hypothesis that comes to mind is that a value from one (expensive) enemy or destructible object is assigned to a much cheaper enemy/object. So either killing or spawning a cheap object at the same frame as killing/spawning an expensive one should prove or disprove this hypothesis. Since most enemies actually spawn offscreen in an invulnerable state, this might indeed be exclusive to enemies that only spawn inside the scrollable area: the turrets in stage 4 and 6, Hibachi clones in stage 6, possibly some others. It could be a combination of two enemies that spawn in the scrollable area, e.g. the Hibachi clones spawn near the respawning turrets, so both could be involved in the glitch.
That is very interesting and worth testing. I like the idea of small enemies on the scrolable area which would take the value of big enemies.
moozooh wrote:
I would also suggest focusing on testing setups that can be sustainably reproduced in unassisted conditions, because I'm not 100% convinced WTN would bother with a very low-probability bug in a game as long and hard as DDP where the first instance of its application is about 20 minutes into the run.
Yes clearly. Even if he's WTN, he doesn't like depending on RNG or stuff like that. By the way, WTN plays time A; and we know that the type C WR (which belongs to CLOVER TAC) also uses this glitch. Same for the type B WR.
blackisto
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Joined: 3/28/2017
Posts: 10
Alright, after one year of important DDP playing (don't hesitate to say hi on twitch) and information gathering, I would like to post some updates: - It is confirmed that the new 862 millions World Record is some kind of bug. The old World Record was 755 millions and the new run is essentially as "good" as the old one, with an extra ~110 millions obtained from the bug. - forget about playing underpowered, or about carying the maximum bonus all along (this was already the case, by the way), there is one European player who managed to trigger a bug which generated an extra 15 millions out of nowhere. The player is Bananamatic and has, by the way, the community record at DDP (best score outside asia), which is currently 608 Millions. - The goal of this post is to share all the things I know because it would be great to have more people investigating for this bug. So here is what I know : 1) Bananamatic triggered the bug in stage 1-6 (i.e. first loop, stage 6) while he was training, using mame, with savestates. Unfortunately, he did not record his training; nor does he have an .inp file to share because you can't record an .inp file from a loadstate. It is thus not possible to replay what he did. I can only detail what he told me. 2) The route used by Bananamatic in 1-6 is essentially the chaining route of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovf6xpH4dRE&t=1028 Bananamatic remembers he did a full chain (from the beggining, till the end of the stage) of approximately 809 hits (which is quite standard, and in fact quite low for a full chain). He did NOT use any bomb. The savestate he uses starts at 1-6 with a score of 127millions. After the chain is over (so before the boss of stage 1-6), he noticed he had a score of 208 millions, which is ~15 millions more than what he's supposed to have. We thus know that the bug is not triggered by bombing, and is not a bug on the boss. 3) From another source, which knows what the bug is (but cannot share it for reasons I won't discuss here) the bug is hard to find; but is not something completely gamebreaking which ruins the scoring of the game for people interested in superplays. Given these informations, I'm now sharing my thoughts: - stage 1-6 has some unique enemies which never appear in other stages, namely those small turrets which fire small blue lasers and which respawn. - I now believe the bug lies in calculation of the points you get from your chaining. Namely the "GP", sometimes called "base points" of some enemies. In short, each enemy is supposed to give some "base point". When you do a chain, whenever you kill an enemy, you obtain the base point of the enemy you killed plus the base points of all the enemy killed before in the same chain. So if b_n is the base point of the enemy for the n^th hit, this hit gives you b_1 + b_2 + ... + b_n points. Now if for some reason, you manage to glitch the base point of an enemy; the extra points you get will clearly snowball. For example, in a chain of 800 hit, if b_1 is normally equal to 100, but you manage to glitch b_1 to be equal to 10'000, then you will get an extra 800 * 9'900 points, which is a bit less than 8 Millions. If you manage to glitch more than one enemy, you would get more... I am not aware of any technique to glitch the base points of an enemy, but here TASing might prove very useful. - Given the relatively low hit count (~800 hit) that Bananamatic did, we have confirmation that the glitch does not come from some crazy, glitched, hit count. - To come back to the base points of each enemy, I would draw your attention on whether (a) the base point can be manipulated by changing the way you kill the enemy (with the shot, the laser, the aura, point blanking) (b) the base point can be manipulated by killing more than one enemy at a time. We already know that when you do a chain, the hit count can be slighty increased by lasering two enemies at a time. So maybe the game does not handle well multiple simultaneous kills. So there you go. Sorry for the tl;dr. I strongly believe that a careful analysis of this stage 1-6 using TASing tools would help to solve the mystery. Of course, I plan to work on it. Please don't hesitate to do the same and share your thoughts.
blackisto
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Posts: 10
The RNG for the patterns does not work similarly for all enemies with random patterns; but for the 1-1 (or 2-1) midboss; the variables are "frozen" approximately 2 to 3 seconds before the pattern begins; meaning that if you make a save state after that you will always get the same pattern no matter what you do (movements, laser, shot, etc.). The same happens for the 1-3 and 2-3 boss; except that the RNG is fixed approx. 1 second before the attack starts. Now before the RNG is fixed; the RNG depends on the movement but also on whether you use your autoshot, your shot or your laser.
blackisto
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Ok, here is a small update. I believe I now have a reasonable understanding of the different TAS tools -- while not being an expert of course. Regarding dodonpachi; a nice emulator could have been the recent mame-rr emulator. This emulator has been used to produce some TAS for other arcade games. However, for some reasons; save states and load states are not working on Dodonpachi. Developers seem to be working on some integration to Bizhawk (if I understand it correctly), which is great. Currently, for my use, FBA-rr remains the best solution. I did not try to record movies though (I'm not looking to submit anything at the moment); but frame advance works well; save/load states works well and RAM search / RAM watch work well; although the game is slow when the search is done on all the RAM (not an issue when you start filtering the RAM, when you look for something). About my four priorities (see, my previous post); - I've been able to identify some variables in the RAM which are responsible for the pattern of the 1-1 midboss. Of course; the 1-1 midboss is easy to beat; but i'm interested in RNG manipulation in general since this would be very useful for live runs, specially on the 2-3 boss. So I got a slot in the RAM. However; I've been unable to manipulate the values of these variables in order to consistently get a fixed pattern. The values change (very quickly) with the movements and with time. That's somehow a very bad news for live runs; but maybe somebody smarter than me will find a way. - I worked on the bullet cancel scoring mechanics; and now have understood most of it. I will post an article somewhere. The results I got are somehow unexpected. Most players believed that ; in stage 3; your score was growing exponentially with the number of bullet cancelled. That's not the case. I'll link the article here when it's out. :) - I didn't work on the 1-5 full chain (see my previous post); but I'm rather optimistic FBA-rr will help me to get a solution. Frame advance + save/load states should be sufficient. - I am nowhere close to finding the "100 million" magic trick that the world-record holder, WTN, found (and kept secret) in 2015. I recall that his world record is now 862 millions (was 755 millions before). With the knowledge we have; a very good TAS would yield around 800 millions. Knowledge of the game is missing here :(
blackisto
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Joined: 3/28/2017
Posts: 10
Yeah, with the FBA I got with my link I didn't find any frame advance feature, nor memory watch ---- which I found now with FBA-rr. I managed to use the frame advance feature with FBA-rr; and thus will start digging my first major question on stage 1-5 full chain. I will read your link again. It seems that frame advance is still possible with FBA...
blackisto
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Thanks for your input. This "new" FBA is the one that's on this link, right ? (I put the link for reference) http://www.fbalpha.com/downloads/ I have also read about recent new versions of mame-rr. But I'll start with FBA, since indeed some work has been done on DDP-DaiOuJou (btw; I expect this game to be much harder to TAS than DDP !).
blackisto
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Joined: 3/28/2017
Posts: 10
Hello there, I am a DDP player, registering this forum to learn more about this game. I play this game for a bit more than 2 years now; and have a reasonable knowledge of "most" its mechanics. As a DDP player, I am aiming to learn the route and tricks that the current WR holder (i.e. SOF-WTN) showed in a live run in 2014 (see the following link if you are interested by WTN's live run : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faaLlH-73Ek ) Dodonpachi is a very peculiar game when TASing is considered for the following reason: - Some old TAS has been done before, by a player named "Takuro". This TAS is very old and I don't know which tools were used to do it. The TAS has been recently re-uploaded on YT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjGg_BjMnrA - This TAS however uses very very sub-optimal routes. As a reasonably good player (but far from world class), I am already able to beat some of the chains that are performed, and score more (e.g. in stage 1). - Dodonpachi is extremely popular in Japan; but not in the western world; and the "best" strategies for scoring are widely unknown for us. For example; with the knowledge I have; I would expect to produce a score of 780 to 800 millions using TASing. The problem is that the world record (by SOF-WTN) is known; and is equal to ... 862 millions. In 2015, SOF-WTN and some of his friends figured out a way to improve the WR by a bit more than 100 millions (previous WR was 755m). Problem is : nobody knows what this trick is; and SOF-WTN is likely to NEVER communicate about it (although we still have few hopes...). - Some other tricks are known to be possible (from what Japanese players claim) but have never been achieved by westerners. Nor do we have any video to formally prove that these are possible. An important example is the stage 1-5 full chain : we got; from many world class players (including WTN); the confirmation that it's possible to chain this stage from the beggining to the end. However; there's no video of it and as a player I have never been anywhere close to get it -- even using savestates (I play this game using mame). - Some scoring mechanics remain completely unknown. The calculation of the score when we build a chain is known (and is even explained in this topic); but the points that we get when a bullet cancel is performed is not. The only thing that we know is that this number of points grows 'exponentially' with the number of bullet that are cancelled. Nobody has any formula though... For all these reasons, I would be interested to look into TASing. My goal is unfortunately NOT (at least not right now) to build a super-entertaining TAS video where we dodge the entire world while scoring approx. 800 millions. My goal is to understand the game; and I currently have the following 4 priorities: - 1: Figure out how this 100 millions score bump can be done. I expect this to be very hard to do; and it's unclear to me if TAS tools can help. - 2: Figure out a way to full chain stage 1-5. I expect this to be the 'easiest' goal. - 3: Understand the bullet cancel scoring mechanics. - 4: Figure out how and when RNG manipulations are possible. As a players; some of the pattern that I have to face and dodge are random; and this randomness cripples my consistency (i.e. I fail way too much). If there is any way -- in some cases -- to trigger the same pattern consistently; that would be a MAJOR finding to me. I hope that the tools to monitor the RAM would be useful here. - 5: Use the findings in 1,2,3,4 to get a very good score in a "real run". not a TAS (not for the moment). So here we go. I have downloaded FBA-rr yesterday and started exploring the functionalities. My knowledge in TASing is simply zero. I have never done any TAS in any game. I don't know what LUA scripting means; and so far I didn't even find how to play "frame by frame" with FBA-rr. I would be interested by your help about the following things: - is FBA-rr the correct choice for what I'm willing to do ? - is there any link to get started with this emulator. There is probably some userguide explaining how to do frameadvance, etc.; but did not find any so far (but certainly didn't look enough). I plan to spend some time on this project. I usually play DDP every day; but after 60 to 120 minutes my brain is no longer able to respond, so I just stop for the day; meaning that I have at least 1 extra hour a day to look into TASing. That's it for the moment. Hoping to read from you guys. (EDIT: I'm gonna start with this small tutorial : http://tasvideos.org/EmulatorResources/Using.html#HowToUseEmulators )