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No frame war. I'd accept it already.
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I wonder what'd be next?
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12 buttons are present on regular SNES controller. This run ises 16. SNES mouse allows 32. What sounds more sure than that?
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ALAKTORN wrote:
Nach wrote:
Well guess what, the SNES Mouse was official, and the mouse movements inputs way more bits than the standard pad does.
that is the question I have been making the whole time… why do you think I’m against the publication of this movie?
all I wanted was clarification, if the mouse allows for the run to be playable on real hardware, that’s ok with me
Tried reading the previous page?
feos wrote:
SNES mouse accesses not just 16 bits, but even 32. The signaling protocol places no limits on length of packet.
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<GhostSonic> any SNES controller that uses dual 4021s has the necessary pins to support the extra 4 buttons. Mario Paint actually checks for one of these extra buttons being pressed. The SNES mouse reports one of them being pressed while polling in order to indicate the mouse is plugged in.
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[04:00] <Mothrayas> HOW DARE YOU PUBLISH TASES THAT CANNOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN EVER (unless I do research) I QUIT THE SITE FOREVER NOW
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ALAKTORN wrote:
an official controller is something Nintendo endorsed, there should be some kind of Nintendo seal of approval on said controller’s box, I’d imagine?
Can't see any on this one. Guys, our movies are illegal. Only the SNESbot made by Nintendo can be used to verify SNES TASes, otherwise ALAKTORN won't agree.
[03:48] <GhostSonic> I've already console verified a proof of concept that uses the extra 4 buttons if that's relevant at all
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I agree with ais523, if the controller isn’t an official one then it’s as relevant as using a famiclone to do TASes
but if there’s an official controller that allows for the run to be played on real hardware, that’s cool; I didn’t understand which was the case from your post
I wonder how at all you can talk about console verification when none of the tools we feed the console input from was released by Nintendo.
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NES has 8 buttons. NES PowerPad has 12. There are also the third party controllers advertised by Nintendo. If this doesn't prove one can make real buttons for these 4 bits, I don't know what does.
Also, Ilari said multitap DOES give access to these 4 bits (and more than that). And SNES mouse accesses not just 16 bits, but even 32. The signaling protocol places no limits on length of packet.
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If I keep in mind that quote during watching this run, I am so prompted to laugh that I can almost vote Yes on it:
AKheon wrote:
"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks once. But I fear the man who has practiced one kick ten thousand times."
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Warp wrote:
Apparently you are unable to comprehend the difference between "harware abuse" and "abusing programming errors in the game" and think that opposing one means opposing the other as well.
Warp wrote:
Resetting during saving is not playing the game, plain and simple. It's messing with the hardware.
Okay.
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Warp wrote:
Nice non-answer.
Let's see...
Warp: Everything but speedrunning must be banned for TASing.
feos: TASing must be completely free in its creativity.
Warp: It's not playing the game.
feos: Some people think TASing isn't playing the game fairly too.
Warp: What does that have to do with anything?
feos: The same your claims have to do with TASing.
The correct answer is NOTHING. But some can't read between the lines.
The problem with Warp's points is that there CAN NOT be a strict border for what actions can be considered allowed glitches and what are disallowed glitches. Battletoads jumping over the tube is allowed or not? Dying on a jet? Performing a hyper jump? All 3 can be done on console in real time. 1 of them can break the game right to the end if you randomly press the buttons successfully. Is it playing the game? Everything here gets stuck into the personal arbitrary ideas like "TASing is cheating".
It's also amusing how people claim something for ever.
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Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
Some people also consider TASing cheating.
I fail to see the connection. Some people consider abusing glitches in unassisted speedruns to be "cheating". So what? What does that have to do with anything?
The same your claims have to do with TASing.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Some people also consider TASing cheating.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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TASing allows DIFFERENT types of tricks that are possible with direct access to input. It can not be limited by speedrunning only, because it would not make sense to limit it this way. It's creativity. And it involves a good level of education. And it showcases something. It is interesting to do and to watch after all!
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If a child receives a box containing an expensive toy as a birthday present, it's possible that he'll enjoy the box more than the toy. This is creativity. We're doing the same for these games. Instead of walking on the paths created for us, we create our own paths, our own legs and so on. And we're not listening to people who say "you can't do that!". Just like children.
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There seems to be NO potential limit for how deep we are allowed to go in manipulating the hardware. This is what perfection does. We discover not only the games limits, but the limits of common sense :D
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TAS geeks are almost incarnate superhumans, and they are already superhumans compared to us. What's hard for us is easy for them. I'm sure Aglar or Randil could shave at least a few frames out of this movie.
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If it desyncs, try changing the video memory settings or something like that.
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There's no border for personal preference boring runs were rejected by before. Now there is some. It's a time record, and people may be interested in how straightforward and ridiculous a speed TAS can be for the games they know. Yes, this movie looks odd, but it is worth existence by the new rules and it can be beaten by some geek easily (it's a geek after all!), which means it has quite some TAS potential and therefore deserves a speed-by-any-cost run.
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[20:23] <Ilari> feos: In fact, multitap would allow reading even more than 16 buttons (unless it does something odd), but the controllers don't give anything interesting after 16 (and the autopoller never reads more than 16).
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The judge seems to be unable to even run this game in horglass. I also couldn't. jlun2 and Thevlackdemonn2294 (and CoolKirby) could. Can anyone else try?
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Yes, it's now perfect. I will update the submission now.
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Can you also remove frame 33,185? Will the movie work ok?
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The 4 extra bits used for each controller bus in this run are not present on an actual controller, but they are present inside it. Input for them is polled each frame and they are by default read as "released". You can send the "pressed" signal for them. But they ARE a part of SNES input. Let's say you need to stick a needle somewhere to make them pressed. I don't see any problem here, it's pretty similar to pressing the opposite directions at once or pressing a button at 30Hz.
On a real hardware we'd use a direct access to these bits and send all the necessary input via the SNESbot device, since the real controller is not used.
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You must get rid of frames 33,185-33,214 seen on your picture somehow.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
