Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
Yes.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
We have a somewhat recent example (tho in theory it could have gone to Playground if the author was interested).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
So if both movies were played optimally (given current knowledge), one would absolutely not include another, right?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
Elaborate?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
Thanks!!!
Just describe the steps you're doing and I'll check what's missing.
In such cases poke me so I add them to https://tasvideos.org/Bizhawk/MAME How does it happen in that one case?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
If all songs were optional, maybe you could only play the optimal ones and repeat them, but in linear games repeating some level means game end is delayed. The goal of max score is not to hit score cap at any cost, but to complete the game the quickest while also getting maximum reasonable score. Score cap is allowed too, but only if it naturally happens while playing without infinite loops.
Sounds like "max score" is simply the only sensible branch for this game, and the boost mode would be preferred indeed (unless it reduces your score).
Well, we tend to skip all skippable cutscenes, and to speedup all cutscenes that can't be skipped, so using a slower mode to make things readable in real time would be something longplays do rather than speedruns.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
We used to have this clause and then it was maybe considered obvious enough to not repeat, but we can restore it:
But does this run go out of its way to maximize per-song score too, or does it just aim for shortest time in each?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
An important question is also how different it feels compared to existing branches: https://tasvideos.org/272G
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
What's the difference between characters and why was this one used?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
While those are not official releases by the original author, I feel it's acceptable as long as we can know which exact versions of everything we need, and how to install them. People who maintain Debian packages sound reliable enough to me to count them as official porters at this point, when the original game is dead and hard to setup.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
Loved it, voted yes!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
Makes sense, tho the judge will most likely do it after claiming.
Thanks for not making a movie that's impossible to make acceptable :D
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
If aiming for IGT only makes gameplay longer without making it faster in more relevant segments, then we consider that it doesn't make sense to aim for IGT for a particular game, at least in standard. For example imagine spamming pause to prevent IGT from incrementing: that wouldn't make the competition more fair (like it does in Sonic games), it'd just add a conflict between different speed techniques.
Also IGT versus real-time is more just a timing method difference when the main content is mostly similar. If the difference is several hours worth of gameplay coming from a whole extra game completion (that is split off into a verification movie), then we can't say it's just a timing difference but a goal difference. And IGT is not a goal that is accepted to standard alongside its real-time counterpart, only to Alternative.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
Interestingly, since characters represent clearly defined content, at the very beginning I wanted to simply allow all of them in standard. Then I thought about games that have a ton of chars, and those combined with other applicable standard branches made me like this option much less. So the only reason we don't allow all chars to co-exist is mostly logistical.
On the other hand, "savegame" always felt like a clear enough in-game distinction, and since it'd only result in one extra branch for every standard category, it felt much more natural to just allow it to exist even if the benefit is minimal.
If the benefit is 0, that to me means it doesn't matter if it's save anchored or not. And if the benefit is negative, I admit I've never thought of it until this new iteration of the talk, but the amount of things to be allowed is still minimal, so it's kinda fine.
Strictly speaking, it's a good point that we don't accept suboptimal chars to standard as "just harder mode", so that argument of mine probably doesn't work. But my main wish is featuring objectively different content with lowest limits that we can reasonably afford.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
If no unlockable characters are faster than the fastest base character and no new content is introduced, then there’s no reason to have a save anchored branch in Standard publication for that fighting game.
I personally only see the problem in "savegame" being an extra standard branch if there's no practical difference at all coming from unlockables. If the character is different and slower, that may be argued to be a harder mode/higher challenge. If the character is the same, there's no point in having both branches. Example: #8775: KusogeMan's Wii Mortal Kombat: Armageddon "Endurance, Kreate-a-Fighter" in 05:18.98
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
A public discussion is meant to happen so that people can clearly explain everything they need with no rush and with all the info being available to everyone. Only then we can come up with a proper decision. It's not about proving me wrong about something, because I very rarely have a hard stance on things. But for the sake of community discussion I explicitly request mistakes to be addressed, because without it it's just a dead end.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
Spikestuff wrote:
The difference with how we're looking at it with the Fighting game genre is the new element being an unlocked character.
I don't see the fundamental difference from other game genres with unlockable chars.
Spikestuff wrote:
I can also refer to Digimon Rumble Arena where an unlocked character wasn't allowed, and instead a character that's available from the start would have been preferred instead.
The consensus was to move away from that limitation, so that submission would need to be unrejected at some point. It represents a situation but can't serve as example of how things should be.
Spikestuff wrote:
But we're in the new site era now where we have a new submission that's using an unlocked character in Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance which should outright obsolete the Kenshi run and be the preferred run. But isn't for some reason.
Why should it outright obsolete?
I can only see why it should not obsolete:
feos wrote:
I don't want save-anchored movies to compete with power-on ones in Standard, because the former kinda give themselves a handicap which would somehow not count as a part of its completion time. I feel it's fair to instead have more branches.
I don't see what's beneficial for the community from having fewer branches in this particular case, which implies extra rules and therefore more complexity going forward.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
Masterjun wrote:
Maybe more specific examples would help. For example, I thought New Game+ would cover everything, and I couldn't quite understand from the previous post why that one wouldn't work.
Just to throw some ideas around (and get them refuted), couldn't we call it "2nd run" similar to the "2nd quest" things we have? Or are there some situations where you don't actually have to beat the game story?
Yeah if the most optimal unlockable (or combination of unlockables) does not require beating the main game but is locked behind an overly specific combination of completions, it may not be the Nth run through any one particular mode.
Masterjun wrote:
In that case, why not just "savegame" or "saved game" like wikipedia calls it.
Wow I love "savegame"!
moozooh wrote:
I think there is somewhat of a contradiction over the fact that we'd only accept the most optimal default character for Standard while giving a "free pass" there to an unlocked one regardless of how fast it is in comparison. I mean, what if it's the slowest character? Or at least slower than the second-best default one? (Thinking of something like Streets of Rage 3's Roo here.)
While we do indeed aim for speed optimization in standard, restricting content too much makes it a pain on the long run for all participants, because things that make sense to a lot of people still consistently get rejected like they were not worth doing. So while aiming for speed in standard we allowed a whole lot of things that feature some conceptual difference that got a community consensus. Save-based unlockables are an example of this, so the most sensible decision seemed to be to remove the need to compete with the clean-save movies. We probably didn't consider cases where all the unlockables are slower, but if the point of the category is featuring this objective difference, I think it's not a long-term problem if it's the only reason a certain extra branch exists. If there's no clear difference between a clean save and a save-anchored branch, we will only have one.
moozooh wrote:
Would it not be better to accept all characters for Standard?
A lot of people in the community don't want the site to have a separate branch for each character in, say, fighting games, where it could result in dozens of branches, because there are already all the other standard goals that could be combined with different chars.
moozooh wrote:
But to answer the question, if we need a generic branch name, would something like "fully unlocked" work?
It may not be fully unlocked, if only the most optimal things need to be unlocked.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
Samsara wrote:
The following SRAM-anchored branches will be acceptable as standard publications:
- Unlockable modes, characters, and difficulties.
-- Assuming they can't be unlocked with in-game codes, of course.
- New Game +
-- This would include minor benefits such as text skipping and cutscene skipping, even if the rest of the run remains the same.
-- There's still a bit of issue with, say, RPG runs that have complete data carryover, but we'll figure those out when we start getting them.
There's been a disagreement among staff regarding labeling of save-anchored branches that don't involve unlockable modes. It makes perfect sense to generalize the label for all such modes and just call it the most iconic name which is NewGame+, but when we just unlock a character and use it in the movie without entering any new modes, it feels confusing if we also call that branch NewGame+.
There's an option to label them by the character name, but then it's confusing in a different way, because it may look like we accept all different characters now, while we only allow the most optimal one in standard.
There are a few labels that don't sound very good like literally "save-anchored" or "unlockable X", and interestingly they kinda cover the NG+ case as well.
Note: calling it just SRAM is incorrect, because SRAM does not persist across power-off unless it's battery backed, and it's not the only way to store progress anyway (memory cards are not SRAM but Flash).
Any ideas how to neatly call save anchored branches so it covers all kinds of unlockables?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
What did you fix, and why replace the file?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1234)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11251
Location: RU
Review:
I got this to sync repeatedly, and repeatedly reproduced the setup files, and uploaded them, with meticulous instructions. I ensured the setup is acceptable, and the only thing left is evaluating the run's entertainment, which I can't do because I don't understand RPGs.
I also have the lossless dump.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.