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Bigbass wrote:
Walgrey wrote:
It's essentially an SMB TAS where a substantial amount of the base run is just skipped.
Devil's advocate for a moment: The warps branch itself skips a substantial amount of the base run, yet that's acceptable. So why is skipping a little more than that not okay?
It's the nature of how it's skipped. Whatever one considers the base run to be, it's done on the unmodified game, which is valued a lot because abusing glitches is only impressive if those glitches are present in the original game, not added via hacks. If the flagpole glitch was only available in hacks, I bet it wouldn't get as much attention among speedrunners (tool-assisted or not). Games being unmodified is one of the staples of TASVideos, it's why we care about ROMs being good and game versions authentic.
Now why does it still matter ever since we switched to being creator-focused? Because one essential trait of this hack/code is that it's subjective, arbitrary. We don't usually use the very term "arbitrary" when assessing a goal (even tho it's mentioned in Alt rules), but it's unavoidable to mention it here because the change is 100% subjective. That's why it can't be judged by its face value by any one judge, and we had to ask for community opinions. Even staff split regarding how this should be treated.
Asking everyone for their opinions is the only way to judge things that are subjective in nature, so it being arbitrary is not a problem per se. But it's an important difference from the base game: it's hard to explain why that change is applied exactly and not a slight variation of it. A good example if a non-arbitrary hack is Superfast Mario Bros:
Hack Description wrote:
The framerule was changed from 21 frames to 1 frame, instant acceleration to 0x7F speed, various delays cut out or speed values increased, nearly instant level clear.
It’s about as fast as acmlm could make it go, and was meant mostly for a silly TAS, but turns out to be actually beatable too!
Since speed is stored as a signed byte, it's possible to max it out and that's what acmlm did. That makes such hacks somewhat canonical, aside from places where a few more non-speed related delays could still be removed with a bit more effort.
Can anyone describe what makes this code canonical compared to all the small variations of it? If someone submits a movie using a small variation of it, how would we judge it? I don't agree that we should publish all codes as separate branches (or separate games) as long as they change gameplay. There has to be some explanation of what makes decisions taken in a given hack/code deliberate, and why it makes sense for regular play compared to the original.
DrD2k9 wrote:
Consider how a human would play when using this code. They could accidentally press “down” too early and get stuck/wrong warp. So there is a bit of a new challenge with this code from a mechanics and speed standpoint, in not trying to warp too early.
When it's so easy in a regular ROM hack to get softlocked accidentally, that's usually an indication that it's a poor quality hack. Your post does quote individual points regarding judging ROM hacks, but there's a paragraph that also matters:
Movie Rules wrote:
ROM hacks must not be overly obscure. If a hack is known to GoodTools, ROMhacking.net, SMW Central, or some other well-known database, that usually means its quality is decent and it won't be completely lost in the future.
Of course a hack being present on such a database does not automatically mean it's of decent quality, and vice versa. But since there's so much disagreement on how to judge this movie, I think we need to understand the spirit of the rule to figure this out.
Hack quality matters, and it being on a hack DB is one nice way to ensure it's decent, because usually there's some moderation involved, and most importantly one should actually invest effort into making such a hack and then extra effort into making it compatible with given policies, and then extra effort in actually getting it published. Random corruptions, which can exist in unlimited quantities, don't get all that treatment because people just don't bother further after checking them out. Now what motivates them to invest all this effort? I think the most sensible motivation is a hack being fun to play regularly, so fun that they decide to share it with the world. And then other users could leave reviews. Sometimes something in a hack makes it harder to play than the original game, but depending on how smart the changes are, that extra challenge can be part of the fun. Or if the change is poorly implemented, then you'd win or lose based on sheer luck, which is much less fun - then fun must come from something else to encourage you to keep playing despite random deaths. The challenge introduced should be clever, interesting.
Superfast Mario Bros is a great example of that too! The result looked so cool and novel that I went out of my way to have it published on RHDN despite their new policy that hacks need to be submitted by authors or with an explicit permission from authors. I bothered acmlm on twitch for weeks to publish a license for his hacks that I could use, and then even more so he fixes the SMB2 hack that would softlock somewhere IIRC. All of that happened because quality of those hacks inspired me, and we also already had submissions on the queue for them, which highlighted how cool the hacks were.
If this code here was presented as a patch file, would I be inspired to upload it to a ROMhacking site? Personally not. It doesn't inspire me at all unfortunately.
Now Game Genie codes are much more trivial to present to the world: you just enter random chars and show what you got in a youtube video. The entry barrier is almost non-existent, and it's not much different from running a ROM corrupter on your game and then trying to play it. And given infinite number of potential game changing codes, there's has to be something in them that makes their quality decent as a ROM hack, something that distinguishes them from all other random codes. What is it for this code in your opinion? fella8 wrote:
To me it feels wrong to compare cheat codes with real ROM hacks, even though I know that’s functionally what they are. There’s very rarely a cheat code that’s going to transform the game enough to be put up next to other ROM hacks.
You can stack a bunch of codes on top of one another to get more severe changes, that's how it's done for consoles where patching the ROM file itself is not very handy. For example for GammeCube/Wii people use Gecko codes instead, and big hacks can consist of a lot of such codes. That's why the rule says "if modifications are severe enough".
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stevenqbeatz wrote:
I was able to save an additional 74 frames near the end, but would still need more than 100 frames to catch up to the other run. I have some ideas in mind, but unsure if it’s practical without more testing. Unless someone else wants to help out, I’m going to call this done for now until I find a more significant time save. Just like the runners I thanked in my submission, I see A LOT of my own strats and contributions incorporated in the competing run (which is exciting to see!). After they saw my theory TAS I posted 5 months ago, they switched from the old route to the new one. Over the last week, it’s as if we’ve been working together improving each others times (if only that counted as co-author lol). Whatever the decision is, I’ll be happy with it! Thank you :)
For a continuous framewar like this, indeed it's often safe to say that the final record would not be as good without the participants repeatedly trying to beat each other's times. When exactly the same happens without a submission, that's usually how a collab project looks! IMO it'd be fair to assign both authors to the final product here too.
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fella8 wrote:
I feel like it would need to be categorized as its own ROM hack to qualify for Alternative (though at that point I guess it would go under Standard), even though I wouldn't necessarily classify it as such.
If it was classified as a separate game, would this code count as an acceptable quality hack according to "Hacks that transform the game, especially new/changed levels, are preferred."?
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The last 2 questions are kinda similar, there's a third one related to it a few pages back.
There's no official solution yet but I plan to make a thread where we'd discuss it with the community.
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I get this when running this movie in xubuntu 23.10, and then it apparently desyncs because the game exit option is immediately selected in the menu.
Attempt 1: Connected.
Debug: EasyRPG Player 0.8.1 (CI, 2025-04-07) started
Debug: =============================================
Debug: CLI: --window --project-path ./acai cOrner v1.1
Debug: Clock: StdSteady steady=true period=ns (1 / 1000000000)
Debug: Seeded the RNG with 1.
[f:0 t:3237M] WARN: Could not find the original SDL_DYNAPI_entry function, using the system one
[f:0 t:3237M] ERROR (sdl/sdldynapi.cpp:118): The original SDL_DYNAPI_entry failed!
SDL Dynamic API Failure!
Couldn't override SDL library. Using a newer SDL build might help. Please fix or remove the SDL_DYNAMIC_API environment variable. Using the default SDL.
Debug: SDL2: RendererInfo hw=true sw=false vsync=true
Debug: SDL2: Detected format (0) SDL_PIXELFORMAT_ARGB8888 : rank=(2)
Debug: SDL2: Detected format (1) SDL_PIXELFORMAT_ABGR8888 : rank=(2)
Debug: SDL2: Selected Pixel Format SDL_PIXELFORMAT_ARGB8888
Warning: Couldn't open audio: Couldn't set hardware audio parameters: Operation not permitted
Debug: Detected encoding: ibm-5348_P100-1997
Debug: Game and Save Directory:
Debug: 1: [Native] -> acai cOrner v1.1
Debug: Loading game acai cOrner v1.1
Debug: Game does not need RTP (FullPackageFlag=1)
Debug: EXEReader: EXFONT resource found (DE 0xe9ee0; 0xeff00; len 0x2168)
Debug: EXEReader: VERSIONINFO resource found (DE 0xea1b0; 0x10ecb0; len 0x2ec)
Debug: RPG_RT information: version=1.1.2.1 logos=1 code=0xc9000 cherry=0xb800 geep=0x0 arch=x86 easyrpg=false
Debug: Engine configured as: 2k=false 2k3=true MajorUpdated=true Eng=true
Debug: wine prefix not found: "/home/feos/.wine"
Debug: wine prefix not found: "/home/feos/.wine"
Debug: wine prefix not found: "/home/feos/.wine"
Debug: wine prefix not found: "/home/feos/.wine"
Debug: wine prefix not found: "/home/feos/.wine"
Debug: wine prefix not found: "/home/feos/.wine"
Debug: Patch configuration: None
Debug: Cannot find: Font/Font
Debug: Cannot find: Font/Font2
Debug: Cannot find: Logo/LOGO1
Debug: EXEReader: LOGO1 resource found (DE 0xe9d80; 0xea3c8; len 0x3d38)
Debug: Resolution changed to 320x240
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Adding new post for the judge:
1. I believe you don't need fast CPU to go through walls judging from the linked video, which starts a windows 95 in safe mode (no other information known. all I can guess is the uploader probably used VirtualBox or something similar to record it):
Link to video
To make sure, someone should actually try to go through (edit) the walls in the zig-zag rooms (probably easier to go through walls on slope (non 0-90-180-270) angle walls.
VirtualBox is not an emulator, so it's not indicative of that glitch being independent from CPU speed. A good test could be trying this in PCem (or 86Box) with different CPU speeds. It didn't go OOB when I hit the wall in the submitted setup.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
2. The gameplay is very short, I don't understand why is it accepted if I already wrote down possible improvements....
You mentioned OOB as one, which is not confirmed in the submitted setup, and it's worth making it a separate category if indeed it depends on CPU being too fast.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
3. Community vetted: 6 players with 15 runs and 23 followers.... I hope this trend of "accept what speedrun.com says" is not used that much, because I saw horrors on that site regarding this.
We never accept something automatically just because they do. The only questionable aspect here was the exact endpoint, and it's by design allowed to be community vetted, because in some cases it's unclear what is an endpoint objectvely. I reviewed it and I can't come up with a better endpoint definition that'd look better to more people than this does.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
4. I've forgot the name of the TAS that was probably GC Spiderman inputting a password that erronously plays the credit instead of activating the cheat. It has more gameplay than this TAS.
The community agreed to retire the triviality ban, which is why we added a (community vetted too) videogame definition.
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I tried adding the credits glitch in and it's a fucking nightmare!!!
Hourglass is completely unusable and crashes all the fucking time even if you disable the things it tells you to disable. That glitch is completely impossible to test because if you hit S at the wrong times the credits will drag for too long in the glitched form, and if you die from that apple and return to gameplay loading a state will freeze everything completely.
I'll accept this movie and leave this bullshit for whoever is crazy enough to try adding this "potential improvement" in.
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Sand wrote:
There's no memory.readword, but there are memory.read_s16_be, memory.read_s16_le, memory.read_u16_be, memory.read_u16_le: Wiki: BizHawk/LuaFunctions. You have to specify whether you want to read as signed (s) or unsigned (u), and big-endian (be) or little-endian (le).
This is a FCEUX forum :D
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feos wrote:
JosJuice wrote:
I would be interested in hearing how the PS1 handles it, as it's the console that immediately comes to mind when I think of disc swapping tricks.
I can't be sure it's safe to proceed without this technical insight. Does anyone know this detail, or maybe where to look for it?
I talked to people on PSX.Dev discord and they told me this:
It's possible for games to detect lid opening ("the mechacon sends an error interrupt if you open the shell; no, most games did not handle this"), which resets the "disc valid" flag.
It's impossible to detect disk removal.
If you open the lid, replace the disk, and close the lid, that disk will be checked for validity (by trying to read the wobble groove, which restores the "disc valid" flag if it succeeds) and then the TOC will be read. Then the game could "check for some expected file on the disc when the lid is closed again" to see if it's a disk it wants. Retail PSX games didn't do this tho.
It's impossible to detect disk swap altogether if the lid sensor was manually pressed and held in place. Lid opening won't be detected until you release the sensor. The old TOC persists and any new disk you insert is treated like the old disk is still there.
It's possible to periodically verify data on a given "current" disk, but it's completely impossible to bail out the instant it's wrong-swapped. Because no matter how often you check validity of the current data, the swap may happen between the checks and then there'd be completely different code running. Reading from the disc is not instant either.
Thanks to Stenzek, spicyjpeg, and smf!
So we can't say that "failing to detect an erroneous swap" is the developer's fault and a bug, if the disk was swapped without letting the lid sensor know that the lid was opened. If we close the lid normally, play the game, open it again and put in the wrong disk, or the right disk but at the wrong time, then it's up to the game to check its validity and refuse to proceed.
But it'd be weird to differentiate those 2 in emulation, because there we're not forced to close the lid in order to launch the game, and there's no way to emulate whether it was closed for real or whether we just fooled the sensor without closing it...
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No, even with lua you can't extend the screen in fceux.
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Randomno wrote:
JP ruleset allows E+N+D and K hotkeys to skip boss fights.
I can't help but feel these are cheat codes, and since they don't add gameplay they can't go to Standard. Fine for Alt tho, just with a branch label highlighting them.
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That's not a trade-off then, but an entirely new goal, because gameplay is vastly different. Sounds like a great goal for the Alternative class, I just can't come up with a nice label for it that wouldn't be too long and still specify the 2 avoided tricks.
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vsamxzero wrote:
1. No Hyper speed side attacks (HSSA): by alternating the accelerator and side attack button every frame you can spam side attacks faster than the usual cap of one every 8 frames.
A run that uses this technique will typically spam it to gain height and pseudo-spacefly to the end of the lap.
Here is an example of HSSA in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRC4hYYRaz4
Is there a video of how it'd look without HSSA? Not necessarily that same track, but ideally 1 with HSSA and 1 without for the same track.
vsamxzero wrote:
As briefly mentioned in part 2 of this video series
What series?
vsamxzero wrote:
So long story short restricting these techniques still allow for insanely fast times, but they would traverse more of the track and showcase much more of the gameplay.
Please let me know if these restrictions would be allowed on a published run because that is my ultimate goal. I can also provide more information if needed.
How much longer would a movie avoiding them both be compared to absolute fastest with them, approximately?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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JD wrote:
I won't object to its removal (whether by feos' proposal or some other method) but I'd be sad to see it go.
What's your navigation workflow and why don't other lists work for it?
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Homebrews are judged like normal games, there's no database for them like there are for hacks.
Prerelease versions are fine if there's no release ones, and they may be obsoleted by the movie of the latter.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Hi, can this handle analog axes? Basic bot currently can't.
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Randomno wrote:
In the IWBTG thread there's mention of a way to glitch the credits to get the final input sooner. Is that done in the submission?
It isn't, and I feel it's a weird edge case. It's arguably post-completion territory, where additional input required after the ending can be moved to a separate movie meant for encoding, tho it's preferred to keep it in the main one. The game is completed, the rest is mostly downtime, and actual completion is what matters when comparing records anyway.
On the other hand, you can't see the full ending if you die there by doing nothing: it's not an annoying dialog that you just have to skip, it's a projectile that you have to actively avoid, so also arguably part of gameplay. Arguably too, seeing maximum glitching is cooler, and if we're already allowing them all why not also this one? Yet another point is knowing absolute minimal record time needed overall.
All things considered, I'm in favor of optimizing the ending sequence as well.
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That list is obsolete. It was created when game entity was first added and it was all manual. Now we have Wiki: Movies and Wiki: Games/List that solve all of the navigation problems automatically. I'd just remove Wiki: MoviesList as well as Wiki: Games (and move Games/List to Games instead).
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OnehundredthCoin wrote:
I have no clue how to make a .net winforms program produce audio, other than playing pre-recorded audio files. Also the emulator just runs at top speed, and I don't really know the best way to force a winforms program to run at a specific speed, so if it did currently produce audio, it would likely be sped up and incorrect. I honestly haven't done much research into those two problems, but that's the current state of the emulator. Someone else mentioned that this emulator also doesn't have an AVI encoder... perhaps if I get something like that working, as long as the encode sounds correct then the lack of real-time audio wouldn't be as big of an issue? I'd have to look into that though, and I have no idea how long that would take.
I'm sure bizhawk devs on our discord can give you some advice on this. Meanwhile if someone writes a parser for those movies we can send this movie to Wiki: Playground.
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Sorry I haven't read or watched anything yet, but how feasibly would be adding audio output to this emu?
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Final question, are there other crashes not included in this movie, that could be more fun to watch?
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Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11679
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
If you aimed for just the fastest crash, which one would you pick?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
