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I guess it's more related to this rule then: http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#UseTheCorrectVersion Version exclusive glitches or anything else that makes the VC release special, would be okay. Identical gameplay would obviously be too similar to have both versions.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
So we plan for many games to just duplicate publish the exact same thing because we can relabel it Wii? Unless there's some significant in-game distinction, I don't see the point in us allowing this.
It's explained in the rule I linked.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
That seems awful to me. We're going to obsolete original games on their original platform because there's a poor emulator that makes it run faster?
No one is saying that they compete for the same platform. VC is Wii, and if TASed in Dolphin it's published as a Wii movie, with whatever is special about that new bundle. An extracted game though, if TASed on its original platform emulator (the rules use N64 as an example), is published as an N64 movie.
Nach wrote:
Those features, not that I know of. But SGB games have other improvements like better sound via the SNES. I think we may have had a run or two which did that, but I could be mistaken. Donkey Kong on an SGB has the game adjusting the color throughout, and AFAIK, does this better than a CGB, and has better sound, it baffles me the game was submitted using CGB.
So if the hardware and software background behind default SGB colors is essentially the same as CGB, are there SGB specific problems comparable to CGB with the same (or different) games?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
We're doing that now?
We're not banning VC relases, and I'm pretty sure we shouldn't. So the logical result is Post #472277
Nach wrote:
It includes similar logic to what the CGB includes to auto color games, but it also has extensive controls to edit the palette while the game is running. SGB even allows you to draw on the screen, like your own map, or hide the boss you're fighting, or other stuff.
Have any SGB TASes on the site made use of this SGB-only functionality, current or obsoleted? I mean manually editing colors or drawing on the screen.
Nach wrote:
If the game itself was designed for SGB it usually looks good. Although we had a discussion several years back where we noticed some SGB games were designed for the television aspect ratio, and other SGB games were designed for the DMG aspect ratio. It seems some companies/studios/teams preferred things one way, and others another. So playing it on the correct system you'd get perfect squares and circles and the other would give you rectangles and ovals.
This isn't addresses in the rules, and it feels uneasy to try to guess developer's intent.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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That sounds a bit like VC releases of old consoles being TASed in Dolphin. Nintendo shipped an emulator inside the VC game bundle, and we're free to abuse bugs in that emulator, as it's part of the game now. And if we extract that game and run it on the original console emulator, it's fine too (unless it's the same as the original, non-extracted game). Also now I have to ask if SGB also has any oddities in how it interprets things and assigns colors.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
The CGB firmware includes a list of somewhat popular DMG games to auto set their palette.
It's Nintendo who's made that boot ROM, right? Sounds like they officially support those games in the "simple color mode", even if it's not 100% bugless.
Nach wrote:
In some games though, if you don't manually select anything, it will indeed not look sensible. And as I said before, since it auto colors sprites different from background, in games where it was intended to blend together, that blend is now broken.
Does this happen with explicitly supported GB games too?
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
For these reasons, I'd like to pick this chance to reiterate my proposal: since the GBinGBC mode may make some games potentially uglier to look than GB, I think it should be allowed only for Moons & Stars.
I just think it doesn't make anything simpler or better.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I have a different question. For GB games that are supposedly not supported explicitly by GBC, it still somehow assigns colors in a meaningful way, it's not an utterly random mess. How is this determined on the hardware level? It's not full-color like actual GBC games are, but still looks sensible. Are there also GB games that have completely wrong colors assigned in the GBC mode?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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McHazard wrote:
Yeah, I was holding out hope that this problem would go away once the dev team better understood when STOP is bugged. But whatever it is, not working on console is pretty conclusive. :/ That doesn't mean this branch is doomed, because I DID find a way to avoid executing a STOP at all. If I activate the glitch while standing at course 5, Wario's Y position will be the start of a 3-byte instruction, which reaches just far enough to get past the STOP. Unfortunately that instruction is [LD SP,1054], which is a pretty awful one to have to work around. It also seems to be the only option, at least as far as standing at different courses goes. I haven't figured out a setup that'll fix SP on top of activating the debug mode, but I've got a few ideas. This isn't over yet.
Are you working on it right now, and should I wait with backwards-obsoletion?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Watched both and I think the clipping makes this movie worse. The current run is kinda slow paced and shaky, but it's still a great game for this "primitive" platform, there's a lot of variety in gameplay, and it's easy to follow. With clipping that loops level layouts, it either seemingly never progresses or just breaks everything beyond recognition, turning all the complex gameplay into "zip zip zip win", pretty much "zip right for justice". There's definitely content to miss if this obsoletes the current run, even if it's borderline. This run, clearly Vault IMO. Voted No.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If there's no known way to glitch this to game end, on new gambatte or gbhawk (those are good now, right?), then indeed we'll have to backwards-obsolete this branch.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
imo the argument that the factory flashed FFs to carts is probably bullshit. Considering that you have to assemble the carts before you could do that and the process of writing FFs to SRAM is not exactly efficient to do at that point. It's fairly likely SRAM was just whatever "pattern" is left behind when it isn't powered (said patterns that Alyosha is referring to).
It's also impossible to undeniably proof that whatever SRAM state one claims to be coming directly from the factory is actually straight from the factory (or has never been messed with since then, or has had no serious bitrot).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If I force this submission's video to 60fps and then decimate to 30 (to align with the vid at nicovideo), and make this and the nicovideo one start when the first level begins, here's when the ending starts: Nicovideo: 99184 (0:55:06.133) This run: 98034 (0:54:27.800) The previous run is 1:00:36.717. Checking every level now... EDIT: 143 frames lost across 10 segments, but overall gameplay improvement is 538 frames.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Re: Absolute Zero vs Invisible Emulation
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nymx wrote:
The use of the display mechanism for "Absolute Zero" and "Invisible Emulation" seems to be targeting different places within the bizhawk application. 1. It appears that "client.invisibleEmulation" is not tied to the DisplayConfig.cs. Is InvisibleEmulation a lower level access to cut of more updates to get faster speeds? 2. Absolute Zero is in fact tied to DisplayConfig.cs, but I don't have any way to access via lua. I would like to have this feature added for use with lua. My reason for bring this up is due to an "crash" that I receive when using client.invisibleemulation(true). So, instead...I have been manually selecting Absolute Zero to turn on/off the emulator display. I have looked at the lua examples in bizhawk and I don't see anything special about its use. When I use client.invisibleemulation, am I experiencing a bug or misuse? Also, does this in fact have a lower level of control on updates? I like this feature, as it would solve a problem that I'm trying to automate. Any information on this would be greatly appreciated.
The only example is the camhack script for Sonic Advance. InvisibleEmulation does the same thing as frameskip, it's just not wired up for all cores. And it's not meant to speed you up, it's meant to disable screen updates for a bit, like camhack requires.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This is incredibly lame!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
But is it a legitimate demand? I see the demand mostly coming from people who are probably younger than a DMG, they probably never played these games on a DMG, they don't get how it subtly different.
It's coming from a variety of active contributors, and from having asked other staff members and people in chats, I haven't seen a single opinion against this demand. The age of our contributors is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The relevant part is that we agree to sacrifice accuracy, for example if it breaks determinism. Emulation is imperfect, so people just deal with subtle differences in some games. Also, the obvious difference I'm noticing is we don't encode GB in shades of green. That's not authentic. Why is it encoded as shades of grey?
Nach wrote:
Yet I don't see how that's a reasonable reason to use a platform the game was not originally designed for in our TASs.
I explicitly said it's not the reason to avoid GB TASing, and you keep treating it like it's a reason I mentioned. It was an explanation why it's widespread in RTA.
Nach wrote:
Unlike elsewhere, we place high stock on original legitimacy, at least we did till now. We know things aren't perfect, but haven't we always preferred playing things in the most accurate and legitimate fashion?
Sure. Also, at the top of Judge Guidelines we say:
Satisfy the audience's expectations.
Which means we should be hearing people out, checking if they have a point, and whether it's possible to update our approach without causing any harm. It's the kind of balance we should be aiming for.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
Since when has TASVideos kowtowed to how some other site handled things? TASVideos has also never been about how easy or difficult it is to capture something. The nature of most early devices are going to be hard to capture, unless you directly wire them up to something. It is possibly to modify the original Gameboy to do stuff with it, and there actually is a large community now around modifying Gameboys and adding on all sorts of new features to them or swapping out various components.
I'm not saying the demand is in the RTA community (CGB is already used there), the demand is right here at tasvideos, as you can see in this thread. I'm not saying we don't want to TAS GB because its hard to capture, I'm saying it's already common outside tasvideos because of that.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The problem is that these days there's very high demand for the GBC mode on GB games, and basically everyone involved in human speedrunning of this platform has been using GBC mode of some variation, because original GB is very hard to capture. If those people have discovered severe glitched, we could ask them. On the other hand, if those glitches are severe indeed, we don't want to compromise the environment. In such a situation, we can't blindly enforce either decision. If we want a future-proof policy that combines objective reality with subjective priorities, we have to be relying on reproducible facts, like examples of games not working properly in GBC, to see how severe it gets. I admit I haven't checked the links though.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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It would be much easier to discuss this if we had examples of games obviously glitching out on GBC, to easily understand how broken it may be. Indeed I would hate to see a run that has some memory corruption glitches leading to major skip glitches, caused solely by running a GB game on GBC/GBA. Even if that syncs on console, relying on GBC-specific glitches in strictly GB games compromises the environment, and therefore legitimacy. Here's a post talking about this subject in details. The most obvious example is using a BIOS from the wrong region. Or running the game in the wrong region altogether. We don't want our heavy-glitching to rely on that kinda thing. It's also problematic to even check if the glitch works on GB as well as GBC: some runs may not sync, and some corruption techniques may not carry over easily. Do we want to require that the author makes 2 runs for every heavy-glitching scenario, proving it works in both modes? Do we want the judges to do this verification every time? Now one might say that we could ban this mode for heavy glitches, and only allow it for slight ones, like glitched graphics. But how do we ensure heavy glitches aren't used in a given run? That sounds like something impossible to really check, because there could be glitches we don't even know about, not obvious, but affecting important stuff. Also limiting something in the rules to "slight glitches only" feels kinda arbitrary. Or maybe someone could say, the only glitches that are possible in this mode are insignificant and unimportant? I'm not a GB expert for such a call. As I said, it would be much better if we had examples of glitches that obviously break things.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
It does not explain how a judge allowed this to be published this way.
What do you think of the idea then? I think it would be a good reason to allow that mode.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Does it answer your question though?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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It's related to this discussion which kinda went nowhere.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Fixed branches and obsoletions, but Post #54154.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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shar wrote:
Ganon has a variety of attacks, and the fight is just picking a random one every time (much like in Missingno.) When Solgryn tested a particular attack, he just made a button to start that attack immediately, so he doesn't have to wait for it to show up randomly. He forgot to remove it before the release: every time you press 1 you'll put Ganon in "your face will die" attack. By "main board" I mean "not numpad". This glitch is also allowed in RTA runs. I agree that it can be interpreted as a debug code, but in TAS the same result can be achieved just by getting a good attack, like "join me and be the greatest": he stays in place for long enough.
I forgot to address this in due time, sorry. We don't allow debug/cheat codes unless they make the game harder or theyare explicitly and officially mentioned as a means of normal play by the game developer or publisher. Rules used by real-time speedrunners don't affect our rules in any way. If there is a way to achieve the same result without this cheat, one can argue what is shown in this TAS is not invalid in its nature, it just requires different inputs. Changing that right in the movie would require hex-editing, and we can't tell if it would sync after that. If someone can show that this key was meant by the developer to be used by gamers, then it would be ok. It's an uneasy situation where we wouldn't want to reject such a great run for such a minor mistake, but it doesn't mean we allow this in general. In normal conditions I would request a movie that beats this boss without that key, at least to compare how it looks and works.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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MovieRules wrote:
Playing a single episode or individual game to completion, or all episodes or games, is considered game completion. Playing multiple, but not all, episodes or games is not considered completion.
In this glitch, you start playing one game, and then switch to playing another game. That is not considered completion, because the first game is not completed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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