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Morimoto has never made a "game end glitch" run. He's made a "warps" run, and that run is alive and well, as Masterjun said.
Then, I guess the final paragraph isn't clearly saying that "game end glitch" is being obsoleted and not "warps", but the whole context clearly shows that this is the case. Obsoleting "warps" wasn't even considered once. Apparently, reading at least The Verdict is required before one feels like arguing against it, and it looks like you haven't done so.
I'll turn those into headers now.
EDIT:
http://tasvideos.org/6466S.html#Verdict
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Warp wrote:
But now it has been reduced to this. What was once a marvelous show of extraordinary superhuman gameplay, with the player seemingly achieving superhuman feats that are essentially impossible for mere mortals... is now but just an ending screen, and that's it. This is what the grandfather of TASing, the precursor, the originator, has been reduced to. Just an ending screen. There's nothing to see in this run anymore but just that. No gameplay, no marvelous superhuman feats, no extraordinary maneuvers, nothing. Just an ending screen.
For this to be done to the original one, of all. I would be lying if I said that I'm not deeply disappointed. What a disgrace.
I must confess that my passion for following TASing is getting worryingly low. Game after game is being broken more and more, until there's nothing left of what made TASing so marvelous in the beginning. TASes are becoming boring. It's like taking something beautiful and extraordinary to watch, a marvelous piece of art, and hammering it into a minuscule boring cube of trash that has nothing interesting to it. When the most "interesting" part of a TAS is reading a miles-long wall-wall-of-text technical description, something has gone horribly wrong.
Meh.
I've been telling you foryears that no one is taking down direct successors of superplays you've liked in the past. Branches you seem to be (or supposed to be) proud of keep existing just fine, alongside new glitched to death ones. You keep making it sound like we're obsoleting "regular any%" runs with "game end glitch" runs, over the course of many years. It's been explained several times that it's not true, and it's trivial to check for yourself.
And I think we can now answer the question I asked in the first post I linked. You don't actually enjoy "regular any%" movies, otherwise you'd be happy they're still alive and well. You just want "game end glitch" (or ACE any%) branches to stop existing. And it's the idea you've been pushing for, for all these years.
Warp wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
But you seem to only want to whine and complain that the entire community doesn't follow lockstep with your opinions.
I'm frankly getting completely tired of me not being able to express a dissenting opinion without some a-hole immediately starting to accuse me of wanting "the entire community to do what I want". Nowhere did I say anything of the sort. I was expressing my opinion. Are you capable of understanding that someone can express a personal opinion without it being a demand for the community to do something?
Since co-existence of "regular any%" and "game end glitch" runs doesn't make you happy as we established, and you don't want the latter to exist at all, it's absolutely impossible for our community to make you happy by incorporating your notion as useful feedback. Because that'd mean people would have to loose content they're enjoying.
Years ago I've been told that incorporating user feedback into policies is not what communities are meant to do. Like, they just express their feelings, it's never meant to be taken as a potential course of the site.
Then a few people merely expressed their opinions about the "glitched" branch label, and merely expressed the desire to change it for the entire site, and boom, it led to a complete mess (like SNES Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island "no L+R, no null egg glitch").
So with this movie, we seem to be completely stuck. It's impossible to make a viewer happy no matter what we do. It's impossible for the viewer to stop complaining no matter what we do. It's impossible to account for the viewer feedback, because other viewers will be unhappy. And apparently, it's also impossible to make the viewer understand that we're stuck, and this can't be resolved.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If we have to unpublish a movie that way, it means our rules are not making too much sense, especially those that are meant to be as solid as possible (Vault rules).
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Alyosha wrote:
If a game was published with a thought to be maximum score run and that game was later found to have infinite score potential, then just kill off the category and obsolete it with any other category, maybe just with an explanation of the technique and why the maximum score category is now dead.
The whole reason we're having this talk is games with no way to have goals other than any%. Vault only allows full completion and fastest completion, and for some games full completion is impossible because you can't complete "all X". So if a movie like this gets invalidated, there will be nothing to obsolete it with.
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There's an option of just allowing infinite scoring. No technique would have to be banned (aside from memory manipulation), and the score would actually not be infinite since it either overflows or saturates, and the run is meant to end after that. But movies could last for several days.
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Okay yes I don't have any good arguments pro "either score or time must be better and none is allowed to be worse. It feels like a workaround and it's not clear what problem it actually fixes.
With infinite score environments, just like we ban certain techniques from 100%, we can ban certain techniques for max score. For example any technique that would allow scoring more points until the counter saturates or overflows can be disallowed. For some games that would lead to no way of having a max score run, and I guess that's acceptable.
New draft (the clause about ending-less games is identical to what we already have for all cases, so I dropped it):
Max score
The goal of obtaining maximum possible score for a Vault movie is allowed under the following conditions only:
There is no way to define full completion for that game, because there is no way to collect or complete "all X" for any given criterion, aside from fastest completion.
If a way to define full completion is discovered later on, a movie that does it obsoletes the "max score" run that is in Vault.
Techniques that allow overflowing or saturating the score count (infinite scoring environments) should not be used.
Like with full completion, score must be gained by the in-game means and not by memory manipulation glitches.
The problem that still remains for me is that game completion may require techniques allowing infinite scoring, or at least some variation of those.
If a certain in-game action allows you to complete the game, but also can be used to score infinitely, of course we can just ban such games from vaultable max score.
But what if an in-game action is required for completion, but only a slight variation of it scores infinitely? Like, imagine you score infinitely if you go left, and you only score 100 if you go right, and either option wins the game. Calling the latter "max score" feels really dumb. But what's dumber is how tiny the difference between allowed and banned in-game actions can be.
Add to the equation discovering only after publication that some of those actions can score infinitely:
<Masterjun> in other words, we cannot ban games based on dynamic things such as the techniques
<Masterjun> (because we inevitably run into a situation where we have to ban a game after a publication)
This fundamental ambiguity doesn't seem to be eligible for vault at all.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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It shouldn't reach that old screen later than the old movie, we'd just demand additional content on top of that former kill screen.
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I'll need to read the manual, and look for other P2 input checks in the code.
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Proposed addition to http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#Vault_2Max score
The goal of obtaining maximum possible score for a Vault movie is allowed under the following conditions only:
There is no way to define full completion for that game, because there is no way to collect or complete "all X" for any given criterion, aside from fastest completion.
Overflowing or saturating the score does not count as reaching "max score", because it leads to delaying game completion for no good gameplay reason and damages the competitive nature of score maximization.
For games that have no clear ending, the movie end requirements remain the same as for fastest completion.
Like with full completion, score must be gained by the in-game means and not by memory manipulation glitches.
A "max score" movie reaching higher score than its predecessor can only obsolete it if it loses no time over it.
A "max score" movie of the same length as its predecessor should reach higher score to obsolete it.
I think this solves the problem with "infinite score" runs trying to obsolete "max score" runs after new tricks get discovered: you have to be slower in corresponding parts of the movie to get potentially infinite score, and we'd disallow it to be slower, even if it allows to get more score.
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[13:31:12] <feos> https://i.imgur.com/kzQVHPF.gif looks like a debug feature
[13:31:24] <feos> meant to be used to test screen scrolling
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Yeah but what does this check actually trigger? I doubt they explicitly make you screen-wrap, there should be some missing check somewhere.
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I think we should not let the score overflow or stop at digital cap like 999999. The point of the competition with "max score" is that you never know how much you end up getting in the end, exactly like it works with movie length (it always approaches zero). Aside from that, the ending point remains the same as usual, with just another objective added on top - highest possible score.
Aside from that, should we allow sacrificing time to gain more score? I think if we allow that, one may delay game completion indefinitely, and we don't want that. The clearest solution would be disallowing longer movies to obsolete shorter ones: if score remains the same, we want shorter time; and if time remains the same, we want higher score.
And yes, score should only increment legitimately,without memory corruption techniques, as already said in the rules.
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I don't think screen-wrapping is an intended thing. But the setup for it could be intentional, which can only be found out by reading the game code.
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I'd prefer an SMS game, also I'd prefer not Sonic.
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Better graphics, better music, better gameplay, more (or less) glitches, etc. If they are identical, we don't care which one you pick.
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Only things that require no homebrew tools (software or hardware) are allowed: what you officially buy is all you have, in this case the C64 with original (and emulated) peripherals and the game.
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The one that's better?
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There is 2 main reasons to use the arcade mode over pce mode in this movie, first the difficulty, most boss have less hp in pce mode and you can get hit (6 times per life), then secondly the "true" ending only appear after beating arcade mode.
As a result, I think both modes have value, but I can't say we should force Arcade mode even for future submissions of this game, as gameplay advantages don't look convincing to me. You get a better ending, but you don't get a lot of variety in gameplay.
As for comparing optimization, there are always similar areas that can be compared directly, and slightly different areas that can be checked on their own, nothing terrible.
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Arc wrote:
feos wrote:
7. Read.
I read it; in fact that "judgment" is the reason I posted. It was ridiculous. We're talking about Super Metroid—arguably the single most iconic game in the world of speedrunning. The new movie was a 'notable improvement' over the previous movie. The previous movie was Starred and had a 9.3 rating. The new movie was also compared to the so-called 'problematic' any% movie, which is Starred and recommended for newcomers with a 9.2 rating. There was, in reality, no doubt about approximately what rating the new movie would get, and it currently stands at 9.4. There never was any issue to discuss; the new movie is one of the most Star-worthy movies on the entire site. It has been held hostage in the Moons tier for the last 3 weeks and no one called it out. The current system of establishing Stars is flawed, and so I proposed an alternative way to establish Stars.
You probably missed this thread and got so confused as a result. People there suggested that the new 100% run does have issues to discuss. And since entertainment is a subjective thing, accounting for people's subjective impression is an important part of the job when you want to promote the most entertaining movies to users. If one can't afford accounting for user feedback, one doesn't get to tell people what to do or what to watch.
You also seem to consider your suggestions absolutely perfect, judging by all the arrogance surrounding them. If they actually had all the merits implied, they'd be convincing to the majority of people, and the high-horse attitude wouldn't be required.
Arc wrote:
Coca-Cola Kid is one of the worst Stars. It's a fine movie but there's no way that it has the special qualities that distinguish a Star from the other 95% of movies on the site.
2 users out of 16 gave it really low rating around 3. 3 users rated between 6 and 6.5. 11 users rated it between 7 and 8.6. It means most people consider this run pretty decent, mostly good looking. It's also one of the best GG runs, and it was the best one before GG Mega Man was published. It stands a bit worse compared to the best SMS movies. In pace it's comparable to SMS Lord of the Sword, but overall it's less complex I would say. Other good SMS movies are more complex, but slower paced.
I'm not particularly amazed by Coca-Cola Kid, and if people want its star to be moved we can do it. But I disagree that it should be just dropped.
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adelikat's intent years ago was that tasvideos wiki should contain all the needed info, but that still doesn't solve the problem of off-line docs. And HelpNDoc can't output wiki code AFAIK.
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Memory wrote:
We could absolutely potentially replace the existing ALTTP star with the suggested movie if people desire it
I don't understand Zelda at all, but the new run is, well, new, and it's rating is way higher. Does it actually look better than the 10-year-old old movie?
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Arc wrote:
The credibility of the Stars tier has reached a new low.
Suggested remedy:
1. Remove all current Star designations.
2. Establish a Council of Starmen (minimum 3 members).
3. Have the Council decide an initial 100 movies to promote to Stars.
4. Promote those 100 movies to Stars.
5. Dissolve the Council.
6. All subsequent promotions to Stars are nominated and decided as part of the Awards every January.
That would surely be helpful, though not as helpful as
7. Read.
feos wrote:
Even though this movie looks stylistically identical to the NMG branch that is starred and has great ratings, I'd like to see this run's ratings. After all, this movie inherits all the problematic aspects of [3653] SNES Super Metroid by Sniq in 35:58.31. Then there's arguably less difference between this and the current NMG than there was between the previous 100% and previous NMGs. As a result, I'd prefer having a Star related discussion separated, and well after this run gets published and gains enough post-publication feedback.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
