Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
feos wrote:
in order for the demonstrations to resemble superhuman playing sessions
No.
That's the problem. Even if there are more "Yes" than "No", it doesn't mean that we can ignore this part, as it's critically important. What's the point of publishing a TAS that produces a video that doesn't feature any form of gameplay, on a site that wants to showcase gameplays?
"Demonstrations must resemble superhuman playing sessions" is not a fundamental requirement of TASVideos. If it was, it would've been a part of Movie Rules. But it can't be, because it's ultimately subjective. How are "superhuman playing sessions" supposed to look? How do we make perfectly sure a given movie unambiguously "resembles" those? To whom? If people disagree, how do we resolve that? To me this movie resembles superhuman playing sessions. What do?
Also you're still making up the goal of the site.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you missed the purpose of my 2) point. It would specifically handle cases like this, by forbidding the usage of an exploit that could be used before starting the actual gameplay, regardless of how was used in a movie. That would mean that I'm not suggesting of forcing an exploit of being used suboptimally, but being forbidden altogether for being potentially game-devoiding, like in this case. Reassuming my idea:
1) All movies should trigger the function that starts the game mode during the movie, before the beating the game, and in its supposed way.
2) Any exploit that could allow to end the game before its normal start, are banned regardless of when are triggered in a movie.
I don't see any possible loophole or arbitrariness for the functioning of my idea, so far.
I don't see how my problems are resolved by this requirement, nor how do I consistently apply it, nor why exactly. It's not making things better than they are, but it dramatically limits creativity and perfection as (actual) goals of the site.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
I have to note that it goes against the original purpose of the site, that we can reassume as: showcasing superhuman gameplay.
That formula is not present on that page, at least not with your wording.
Definitions of our content that are present on the page:
"tool-assisted superplay (TAS) videos, which are gameplay demonstrations"
"tool-assisted speedruns and superhuman play"
Whether or not this movie fits those depends on how exactly we interpret their parts.
This movie is clearly a tool-assisted speedrun. It's also clearly a demonstration. I would call it "play" because you play a game when you send it your inputs and it reacts, that's the only definition that I find objective and reliable. It's clearly superhuman because you can in no way replicate it without tools. Superplay is something that is "cooler" than regular play, so it's a synonym of superhuman play to me. What's left is the term "gameplay". But first, let's look at TASVideos' mission again and see if this movie still stands.
in order for the demonstrations to resemble superhuman playing sessions
No.
we strive to push games to their limits
Yes.
we overcome human limitations to complete games with extremely high precision
Yes.
entertaining our viewers as our players tear through games at seemingly impossible speeds
No.
The end result of this process is simply a series of key-presses which may be performed on the original hardware.
Yes.
Some of these tricks we use make the games look broken. But we are not breaking the games, we are just breaking your notion on them.
Yes. (See how it addresses "looks like a password".)
[Skipping the part about quality because it depends on personal take]
We make these movies because they are entertaining to watch
No.
and because we are curious how far a game can be pushed.
Yes.
The process of creating them is also a form of problem-solving and challenge to our intellect and ingenuity.
Yes.
And we're not listening to people who say "you can't do that!". Just like children.
Yes.
Overall this movie seems to fit almost perfectly. Even then, I think that page is meant to state what kind of content we want and what kind of content we don't want, but it can't predict indefinitely far future in details, yet it also has to be generic enough to cover all known types of content we're providing. A movie like this one was most likely never anticipated, so it's reasonable not to demand absolute perfection from that page's wording. And the spirit seems to fit.
Now let's get to your definition of proper gameplay. I'm not quoting parts where you say that this movie doesn't have it, because that depends on the definition anyway, and you explained well enough why your definition of gameplay isn't present.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Now answering more thoroughly to your question: What do we consider as gameplay?
In my opinion, it can be objectively defined with two rules:
1) The movie must trigger the beginning of the playable part of the game, and it must do it the the supposed way, i.e.: from the relative game's main menu or title screen. This can be objectively defined and verified with some basic trace logging, after that we identify the function that starts the play. This can also safely include "demo glitch" movies that starts the game from an in-game demoplay or scripted cutscene (984M, 2285M, 3471M, 3557M, 3567M)
2) The movie must not make use of a glitch or gimmick that could save even more time if performed before starting playing the game in its supposed way, or before that the game begins playing the demoplay or the cutscene normally, for cases where that is used for beginning the play.
There is a problem with this notion. Of course this movie can be tweaked to start from such a point. But the key is that none of regular gameplay is required for this technique to work, at all. It doesn't matter at which point you trigger this glitch. It won't involve any character movements, none of "traditional gameplay" code has to be executed. Gameplay is fundamentally and wholly irrelevant to this movie.
Now if we try to force it to have gameplay, more problems appear. The movie doesn't become more impressive. It doesn't get harder to reproduce in real time. It doesn't get harder to make. It doesn't get more entertaining. But it does become sub-optimal! And even if ending point can be vague (which is why we compare game's overall behavior), starting point, in addition to being a pointless restriction, becomes vague too. For example, how would this requirement impact movies that don't have to end before regular gameplay is started? Can we still optimize menuing? Can we glitch menuing to happen faster, or to skip it altogether? Can we use menuing to trigger in-game glitches? Why?
If the requirement is limited to movies that end before "regular gameplay" starts, aside from not making it any better, this would look like a unique restriction that doesn't relate to any other content or TASing spirit. And the TASig spirit has always been "use available input ports for all possible input combinations trying to beat the game fast, and see what happens". In that, this movie is similar to [2047] SNES Chrono Trigger "save glitch" by turska & inichi in 03:28.06 for example. Entertainment rating is 3.6, tech rating is 8.7. People do appreciate crazy glitching and breaking bad, even if it's boring as hell.
We also have a rule about initial RAM state. Its premise is that as long as some startup RAM state is verified as possible on console, it's allowed. This is clearly a non-gameplay thing, and it can dramatically affect whatever ends up being played in a TAS, be it "regular gameplay" or something else. Even though using this technique may introduce unequal conditions for the competition, and even though it's actually really hard to verify, it is generally allowed to influence how the game behaves, regardless of what is called "gameplay". If we force your restriction, this rule loses its meaning.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Indeed, in-game passwords, in most cases, consist of hard-coded input sequences that can lead to intentionally unfair advantages or outcomes. For some games, passwords may also require certain input timing. So, if we really want to be pedantic, yes, we could see some similarity or resemblance. What makes it worse, is that many games have some still undiscovered passwords coded in, so there could even be (theoretically speaking) cases where such could slip in, as we can't detect something with trace logging if we don't know which function are we needing to watch. And even if, ad absurdum, we reverse-engineer the full code of a game, we still will never be 100% sure that a password was coded in some obscure way that we couldn't notice or figure out.
We don't have to reverse-engineer the whole game to tell that functions used in this movie to trigger the ending do not involve passwords or other in-game codes. We just read the tracelog and compare it to what this movie is claimed to be doing, that's all.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Gameplay isn't bad, but those endless interruptions become incredibly annoying, because of how short the levels are, and because the interruptions are all the same, and they are kinda long. Voted No.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Yes the question is only about the movie itself.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Highest rated Addams Family movie, but constant high speed makes it a bit monotonous for me. Yet I know it's a good movie in itself. Any more opinions?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Zeupar wrote:
I think using a screenshot from the part between 25:11 and 25:14 for the publication would be cool.
One of these?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Yeah I don't expect this goal to count as full completion, because for that one has to be sure that it's actually full and can't be fuller.
Lobsterzelda wrote:
It's not a very entertaining game to watch, though that's a result of the game's developers rather than any issues with this TAS itself.
It's how it works: we assess entertainment value of game+movie. Sometimes a game can't be made more entertaining, and then the movie can't reach Moons.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Welcome our new judge Maru!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Guys please post feedback and vote for this movie. Is it entertaining to watch several loops of this game with slightly increasing pace, with this kind of music and visuals, for 20 minutes?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Picking an easier difficulty just because it's "the fastest way" feels cheap, especially when it's in fact detracting part of the optimization challenge.
Maybe the decision itself feels cheap, but we would only reject such a movie if the overall audience feedback is negative because of switching to easier difficulty. If it doesn't look particularly and obviously different, just a little worse, it wouldn't lead to rejection.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Ok, but if this movie gets accepted, then how would be compared with future submissions that use the hardest difficulty? I don't think that a decision of obsoletion should be based on audience reception alone, but more on the technical merits between the two movies compared. And comparing technical merits becomes moot if these use different difficulty modes.
The guidelines you quoted here disagree with the notion that technical qualities are move important. In fact, those aren't even mentioned among the factors! What is mentioned is more content, more entertainment, and looking more interesting.
In general, it shouldn't be impossible to compare 2 submissions done on different difficulties: in similar situations the "harder" submission shouldn't be slower, and in unique situations it shouldn't be slow.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Sounds like introducing dependency on verification movies. Also reminds me of game installation steps and preparations, except it's a system where you're not meant to install games like you are on PC. But at the same time, it's obviously different from installation steps because it's doing weird manipulations to the console timer.
The main problem here is that hard reset is not implemented. If it was, no secondary movies would be needed. Alternatively, setting movie startup time needs to be supported. The multi-movie approach just works around implementation problems with some very questionable techniques. I don't think it's acceptable for publication.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
<Masterjun> TASVideos: How to push people who push video games to the limit to the limit
<Mothrayas> "here on TASVideos, we push people to the limit to push games to the limit and then they push ourselves to the limit"
-*- Masterjun is all out of limit
<Mothrayas> what you must do is be cloud
<Mothrayas> after all, the sky is the limit
<Masterjun> yeah I'm gonna push this video game to the sky when I'm finally done
<Masterjun> then I let gravity do its thing
<Masterjun> hmm, considering I'm reaching the limit before the game does, I'm actually pulling it to the limit!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
fsvgm777 wrote:
For what it's worth, there is a T64 to TAP converter (and vice versa) that's available called WAV-PRG.
It can be found here.
If games converted from T64 to TAP can be used for TASing them....that's left for the senior judge to decide.
It should be covered by the paragraph about mediums here:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#RomImageMustBeGood
But if the original image can't even be run on actual C64, we should prefer an image that can be. In a situation when neither format is authentic, conversion from emulator-only to C64-usable looks acceptable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
zdoroviy_antony wrote:
Can movie be submitted, if it is not new world record by a time, but same time and more entertaining version, when beat time is most likely not gonna ever happen and author of original time improvement don't want to submit a run, because it is most likely not gonna be accepted? I want to try, because it is cool movie for my opinion.
The general answer is yes: if there's no known way to improve the time anymore, but entertainment gets significantly improved, such a run can be accepted, as discussed in the SMB topic.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
And if you just run right from here (or shoot portals to the right) you will reach the end later than in the movie?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Why can't you jump up right away here?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
It would have looked much better if the characters moved asynchronously like in the current Genesis movie and the SNES version publication. Gens has the Multitrack feature that allows to record each player input separately, but I suggested bizhawk and tastudio to Juarez where it's super easy to control each player individually with all the needed precision, but for whatever reason it wasn't used. As a result it looked cheaper than those 2 other runs. Voting Meh.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
If there's actually more variety in boss fights, not simply "more of the same", and if less player health means more dodging (since there's no damage boosts here), hardest difficulty has value. But the game is boring either way, so for me personally difficulty changes nothing.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
I'm also prepared for tons of downvotes for including that boss fight. Yep, I've seen some things over the years, I won't be surprised at all. But at least the goal of "all bosses" would be solid.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
And if you just listen to your heart and skip that glitched boss fight, labeling the movie with something fitting, there's a high chance it gets downvoted for skipping the boss fight. Tough situation. But we've seen tougher! :D
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
Fortranm wrote:
There are no relics for Richter and Maria.
Sounds like Alucard is the only character able to provide for true full completion then. But there's already such a movie on PSX. For the sake of diversity "Maria, all bosses" should be fine, just not marked as full completion. And yeah so far people seem to prefer including that extra boss.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
The first ice level got old after a few seconds, but all the rest was really cool. Voted yes, quality hack and nice TAS!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
It works! Thanks for all the help!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
