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Sticky wrote:
most of the other members (many of them senior members) who have watched the run disagree.
Meh, seniority doesn't really matter. It is more of a 'we-can't-get-rid-of-this-nerd' type thing.
I am interested in viewing, but don't recall a youtube. Will edit in an opinion if there is a link, though.
I agree that seniority doesn't/shouldn't matter for publication purposes, but I would say that the opinions of those who have invested such time in this site and likely have a more polished view as to what is acceptable/unacceptable for publication here give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. :) Not to take anything away from newer members (because of course I'm also one of them). :P
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Thanks for all the support guys! Spweasel is of course free to make his own judgments and I hope this thread doesn't end up in some sort of flame war because of it. I have tried to justify my view in an intelligible and constructive way, and if that's not enough then so be it. He is also in the vast minority so far in voting and opinion so I'm not really discouraged by his views, since there will almost always be disagreements as to whether a run should be published or not. Once again thanks to all for taking the time to watch and vote/comment. :)
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Very nicely done andrewg! Yes vote here.
Edit: Oh, and btw, I hope you find the time to assist with the mtpo individual levels on sda with my good friend sinister1 and dk28!
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skater43 wrote:
jprofit22 wrote:
Was I hallucinating or is the "pacifist" run by adelikat already pea-shooter only?
Edit: not trying to be an ass, just have a poor connection atm so I cant rewatch the pacifist run
For the most part, yes it is. However, he collects the machine gun and spread in area 6 (though only uses them to shoot other weapon pods). And in area 8, he collects the spread again near the end and keeps it for the rest of the game. Still, tormed, it'll give you a pretty good benchmark.
Thanks for clarifying this for me. Good luck with the run tormed!
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spweasel wrote:
[
2) "Pacifist" as goal choice is rather vague, whereas "Swordless" is not. "Pacifist" could imply several things, including never defeating enemies, never killing humanoids, never firing weapons, never killing anything unless needed, etc. In this case, vagueness is actually a plus, since it requires a look at the submission text in order to find out the real goal of the run.
pac·i·fist
/ˈpæsəfɪst/ Show Spelled[pas-uh-fist] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a person who believes in pacifism or is opposed to war or to violence of any kind.
This definition is taken directly from dictionary.com and illustrates why the "pacifist" title is actually quite specific. If taken literally, the title would denote that the character is opposed to any and all acts of violence and would attempt to complete the game w/o any bloodshed.
This is obviously not the case since game completion would be impossible.
I could make the same case for a 100% run in the fact that if taken literally, a true 100% smb3 run for instance, would be forced to collect every menu item possible and have maxed out extra lives before game completion. I think that many people would agree that this would be rather boring from most perspectives, and not be worthy of publication. In addition, the published smb3 run actually skips some of the auto-scrolling levels making it even more compelling to argue that this isn't a 100% run. Yet I think most people are reasonable enough to look past these minor infractions and accept a run of this type as 100%.
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Warp wrote:
spweasel wrote:
Does not adhere to the the run's stated goal.
I think that's a bit like saying that the Contra pacifist run doesn't "adhere to the stated goal" because it does kill some enemies, out of necessity.
If the only place where the sword is required (and hence used) is in the very last boss, then I would say it does adhere to the stated goal: To complete the game (in the sense of getting to the very end, to the last boss) without using the sword. The sword being mandatory at the very end isn't such a huge catastrophe with regard to this goal.
Well put, and a good comparison made to the "pacifist" Contra run. Wish I had thought of this first! :P But of course it was snorlax, followed by your excellent elaboration on its relevance.
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spweasel wrote:
I try to watch runs before reading the commentary (to avoid spoilers), so I too was sorely disappointed when the wooden sword was picked up. I was hoping that perhaps some glitch to skip/kill Ganon had been found, but sadly that was not the case.
I was looking forward to giving this one a yes going in, but I have to give it a no for two reasons:
1) Does not adhere to the the run's stated goal. The goal itself makes the game unwinnable, which makes it a poor choice of goals, in my opinion. This by itself would be enough to drop it to a "meh" in my book. If this were titled "no non-Ganon sword use" it would be accurate, but that just makes the goal sound pretty arbitrary.
2) Doesn't feel like it offers that much entertainment that can't be found in the other runs. The new route isn't bad, but mostly just feels like doing the same things from the other run only in a different order. Manipulating enemies so you can bomb them is interesting as well, but after the first couple times it loses its novelty and starts to look the same. This is enough to just barely drop it into "no" status for me.
It might partly be that, as Cardboard said, this game is the worst in the series for TASing. Even changing the route or using different enemy strategies doesn't feel like it makes a big difference in the end. By no means is this a bad run, but it seems like an unnecessary split.
On another note, would it be faster to pick up a couple of those post-boss heart tanks you just barely miss and grab the Silver Sword after Level 5? It doesn't seem like it is very far off the path and it would save time against Ganon (not to mention allow for more damage boosts). If you have to collect the sword to beat the game, it really shouldn't matter which sword you get or when you get it, in my opinion.
First off, thanks for taking the time to watch the run, and present your arguments in a reasonable way, unlike the first comment posted on here.
1) As this may be technically true, I sacrifice getting the sword in order to complete the game as stated in my submission notes. In my opinion, without completing a game it would be pointless to even run it, and I felt as though it would get a hearty rejection if any of the other movie endings were chosen. Also as stated, the sword was not used throughout the run until the fight with Ganon, and I believe that this is a reasonable exception to be made.
2) You are gladly entitled to your opinion on the entertainment value of the run, but I am happy to see that most of the other members (many of them senior members) who have watched the run disagree. I feel like playing through the game w/o a sword is very entertaining just for the fact that the sword is our hero's primary weapon and as was commented on earlier in the thread, is quite impressive to be able to complete even 1 dungeon, let alone all 9 (with the exception of Ganon of course) without it.
I felt that the discussions and desire to see this run made in the forums was enough reason for me to choose to make this run and ultimately submit it.
As to getting heart containers and picking up the white sword, I have to guess that this would in fact be slower than just getting the wooden sword. The time saved from extra enemy boosting is somewhat arbitrary and many times it would affect the enemy drops in a non-favorable way. While having the white sword on Ganon would speed up the fight slightly, you have to take into consideration how far you must travel to get it after level 5. There is no way to screen scroll from level 5 to the white sword room, so one would have to travel 4 screens from the entrance of level 5 w/o the benefit of any glitching. If you read the submission notes for the 1st quest any% they removed getting the white sword for this very reason. I also wanted to present viewers with a run that doesn't pick up any non-essential items such as extra heart containers, thus heightening the entertainment value.
Again, thanks for watching and I'm sorry you feel this way.
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Was I hallucinating or is the "pacifist" run by adelikat already pea-shooter only?
Edit: not trying to be an ass, just have a poor connection atm so I cant rewatch the pacifist run
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Cardboard wrote:
Overall the game is kinda slow-paced, the screen transitions takes way too long time (And a lot of the run is just screen transitions, glitched or not) and for the love of all holy rocks in the universe, that almost-dead sound could make Elvis spring to life.
It's not the run I dislike. It's the game as TASing material.
Fair enough. And yeah, lol, the low energy sound is quite annoying. Although if you listen to the dungeon music while on low life it makes a pretty cool remix when switching from door transition to rooms since the low life beep is removed during the transitions and you can hear the whole track. Anyway, thanks for the vote! :)
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Cardboard wrote:
I didn't really like the run, like I do with most LoZ-runs it seems, but it was very well executed, and I enjoyed the concept, so yeah, I'm all for this. Yes-vote.
Out of curiosity I was wondering if you'd be willing to elaborate on why you didn't like the run.
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Onyx3173 wrote:
My only question is about a couple of rooms. Some of them you obviously kill all the enemies to hit a switch but are all the rooms you clear that way?
For the most part yes. If I am clearing a room of enemies it is only because of 3 things. Either its because of a pushable block, a locked door, or picking up a key/bomb/5 rupee reward for clearing the room. Although there are not any bomb pickups this way.
Edit: When I say locked door I am referring to the barred doors that open only when the room is clear of enemies, not a keyed door.
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Mothrayas wrote:
Actually, CCC is not just "to the re-entering of levels due to getting less stars and stars in a different order in each level". It's also, you know, getting stars without getting coins or using caps and cannons. That's actually pretty similar to this run not using a sword. (I do assume not using a sword here has a greater impact than not using CCCs in SM64, though).
I think an even more comparable run to this is Super Mario World (Small only), which did end up getting published.
I agree that there are arguably some similarities because of the restrictions of not using certain items, and in no way am I trying to take anything away from a CCC run, but as I said in my comment, the route is the major difference for me here. And thanks for comparing this run to the "small only" SMW run! This is one of my favorite runs on the site and it's an honor to be put in the same sentence with it.
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Thanks for all the great feedback! I'm glad to see people still showing interest in this run after so many years.
mklip2001 wrote:
Heck, I even approve of you wasting a little time to shoot an old man in Level 9.
Actually if you look a bit closer you'll notice that after I hit the old man in level 9 I get an enemy boost off of one of the fireballs toward the wall. This saved a couple frames over walking.
As for the link to the Super Mario 64 TAS adelikat posted. Of course my opinion on this matter is probably a bit biased since I'd like to see my run approved, but I would argue that these runs cannot be compared for the simple fact that I have to incorporate an entirely different route plan from the published 1st quest movie, changing the enemy layouts, enemy drops, and item pick-ups. Whereas the Super Mario 64 submission I am assuming uses almost a mirror of the 120 stars route with minor changes to the re-entering of levels due to getting less stars and stars in a different order in each level. To me this is not a large enough distinction from the 120 star run to warrant a new category, whereas the only similar thing between my run and the published any% I would say are a few dungeon rooms.
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The run has been submitted and you can check it out here:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9804
I guess it's on to a 100% run, although I'm a bit wary of starting this because the parameters for 100% completion are somewhat shaded atm.
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And there it is folks. My improved version is finished in a time of 26:43. I saved 4,140 frames over my posted WIP. This run is now extremely optimized in all facets of the game and someone would have to have insane luck to save much time, unless of course there's a breakthrough in the route that I somehow missed. This run isn't exactly perfect, but I have come to believe that there is no "perfect" run of this game. The enemy and drop manipulation is extremely hard and as has been said before anything you change will ultimately change everything beyond it. I think a "swordless" run is worthy of residing next to the any % runs and I hope it gets accepted. Well anyway, time for the submission text. Wish me luck! :)
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Lord Tom wrote:
One other thing I noticed is on your prior wip you used the money-making game 5 times; IIRC the published 1st quest uses it only twice and grabs 100 rupees from one of the "It's a secret" dudes. Just something to look at if you haven't already; you're buying an extra bomb and using the new overworld glitching, so that may change the math in favor of the money game.
I thought someone might point this out. The reason I do the money game more than the published 1st quest is because if I buy the candle on the way to lvl 4 to get the ladder, for some reason it arbitrarily sets my item to the candle after resetting, which makes me access the menu screen to get back to the bombs. I changed the candle pick-up to right before lvl 8 so I don't even have the candle when passing the bush for the 100 rupees.
In my first run that I posted I do the rupee game 1 too many times since i only need 241 total rupees to buy the required items and have 1 left for Ganon. I have removed 1 rupee game in my new version and pick up the rest of the needed rupees from enemies along the way. So basically at this point, I'm trading 2 money games for 1 menu screen and the 100 rupee pickup, allowing me to screen scroll past both the 1st candle room and the 100 rupee room. It turned out to be slightly faster to just do the rupee game. Also you will notice that getting the candle before lvl 8 allows me to travel up/right on the way in and down/left on the way out which saves a few frames from zigzagging vs the early candle pick up, and as a small bonus I get 2 enemy boosts, 1 each way.
I am currently just about to get the silver arrows in lvl 9 and was ~3800 frames ahead after getting the sword. So hopefully I can save a few more frames inside lvl 9 dropping the time to under 26:50. Hope to have this run finished soon and make my first submission to TASvideos! :)
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Thanks for the comments and encouragement LordTom! :) I have in fact started a new one and in 2 days (about 22 hours worth of play) I got to the start of level 7 saving around 3200 frames. I have actually already incorporated most of what you suggested. The time saved mostly comes from (so far) 0 extra menu screen transitions, much better dungeon rooms, and the skip of entering level 5 from the bottom. I am considering trying to improve the room b4 the whistle with the darknuts because it took me 4 bombs to kill them all, and although an improvement over the fcm I posted, I know I can do it in 3 or even 2. Which would save me another 2 menu transitions in level 7 where I currently run out of bombs. I took some days off from this run because after those first 2 days i was a bit burned out, but I'm going to start working on it again today. Glad you enjoyed the posted run and thanks again!
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As it turns out Ganon was a piece of cake, albeit my fight with him wasn't very flashy.
(Hmm microstorage is being a fukkr. I'll link the fcm as soon as possible.)
I have restarted and been playing like a fiend and have a new run with some overworld movement and enemy manipulation optimizations. I am about 450 frames ahead of this movie going into level 6, and have found a skip that looks to save ~20-30 seconds (which is ultimately why I decided to redo the run). I doubt I'll post any of this movie till it is completed considering the lack of comments/feedback I've received on this one.
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MUGG wrote:
on this TAS i'll play only all levels
Wie Randil schon sagte machst du im Grunde einen Run den es schon gibt.
Handelt es sich immer noch um ein Missverständnis? Oder möchtest du deinen TAS dennoch machen? (Das Problem ist, dass wir nicht genau wissen was du mit 100% meinst...)
[/size]
Please read this again Taseditor. Also they weren't talking to you specifically when they were discussing maxing out score. They were just talking.... Good luck with your run though! I watched the run you've posted on youtube and it's pretty good! :)
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Thanks skater. Im sure there is a pattern to Ganon's movement but I still think it has to do with Link's positioning and/or where you hit him from. If you watch the Ganon fight in the TAS the runners get Ganon trapped in a single position for most of the duration of the fight. Baxter where are you for the answer??!! :P
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You can find an fcm of this run up to Ganon here:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1972140556/Zelda%20Minimalist%20TAS.fcm
The re-record count is a bit skewed i think and is more in the range of 15k or so. There are lots of improvements possible here dealing with enemy manipulations and item usage (especially in some darknut rooms), cutting down on the menu screens accessed. I do believe the route is fairly optimized. Mostly what I would change is key collection and enemy manips. Enjoy and feedback is appreciated.