Posts for t3h_Icy

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Joined: 8/31/2009
Posts: 242
One more post... While sampling for obtaining Piccolo, the stat experience for Strength, Power, and Endurance range from 3040-4848, 3229-5037, and 3152-4960 respectively. Quite quickly, I found a set that gave 4848/5035/4958, which is perfect for Strength, and just slightly under perfect for Power and Endurance. For a TAS with wildly changing RNG, finding a set this good would likely be impractical, but it's a proof of concept that finding functionally perfect stats is possible. Assumably, this should also be possible for the other characters when obtained. This is also a good example that true optimization of this game would be essentially impossible with the nightmare of RNG possibilities, and that further improvements should be fairly constant. There is always the risk however, that even with more TAS improvements that a lot of time save could later be lost to RNG manipulation, which is quite intimidating for TASing a bit of a long game, particularly for 100%. With this, I'm pretty satisfied with everything I wanted to research for this game. I hope that whoever decides to TAS this game next finds all this information helpful!
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For some results that are directly useful for a TAS, the following are some sets of stats you can get for Trunks in the intro, which carryover later when you obtain Trunks. This assumes frame perfect menuing and that text speed is set to fastest. Stats are in order of HP, EP, Strength stat experience, Power stat experience, and Endurance stat experience. Minimum values are 142/30/2971/1628/1934, and maximum values are 154/40/3975/2632/2938. I've also tested this on both the US and Japanese versions and got the same results. 0 frames, or starting the game immediately: 151/33/3323/1815/2101. This is what ASDQ's TAS uses and it notably loses 652 Strength stat experience, or over 2.5 entire stat points! It's also not very good for EP or Power either. A lot of time can be saved just from using a better set. Waiting 7 frames: 146/40/3931/2574/2738. This is a very large increase to Strength, Power, and EP; even Endurance too. Using this set would be a massive improvement. Waiting 27 frames: 149/33/3945/2570/2926. This set has 14 extra stat experience to Strength, which could possibly allow for obtaining an extra Strength point temporarily for a couple specific levels, depending on rolls. The difference of 1 extra point would also need to be the difference to killing an enemy in one fewer hit, which would justify waiting the extra 20 frames. More realistically, less need for RNG manipulation for future level-ups could be beneficial. Waiting 29 frames: 147/35/3963/2094/2216. This set has another 18 extra stat experience to Strength, and a touch extra EP compared to the previous set. Waiting 72 frames: 147/36/3971/2389/2024. This set has yet another 8 extra stat experience for Strength, 1 extra EP, and also extra Power stat experience if needed. Losing 1 second can likely be made up for if the extra stat experience is shown to be beneficial. Waiting 80 frames: 145/37/3973/1968/1950. This set has 2 extra stat experience for Strength, another extra EP, and is close to the maximum. Losing 12 frames is almost certainly fine. Waiting 214 frames: 150/37/3974/2608/2839. This set has just about perfect stat experience for Strength, the same EP, and extremely high Power as well. Even Endurance and HP are high. The long wait might be hard to justify for these benefits though, but if Power is used more in a TAS, it should be worth the loss at the start. Everything beyond this is too long of a wait to be justifiably more viable. --- In my opinion, if Power is desirable, waiting 214 frames gives an extremely good intro Trunks and the cost of about 3.5 seconds can likely be made up for, especially in a 100% TAS. If it can be demonstrated that Power is not needed for any case to save time, waiting 80 frames is likely the best option. Even if the extra Strength stat experience doesn't result in any extra stat points, needing less RNG manipulation for the rest of the run would still be a potential time save, and 12 frames compared to the next best option is very little time.
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I ran a sample of over 80,000 for leveling up Gohan with tracking the stat experience and other details. Exactly one roll gave maxed out Strength stat experience, Power stat experience, and +4 EP altogether, and with each stat varying by 201 possible values, and then 1 in 3 for perfect EP, this seems about right. That said, unless extensive, perfect control of RNG becomes possible, there's no way it would ever be worth the time for this, and something much more modest at the cost of even just a few frames would be better. Ideally for a TAS, you would get enough stat experience such that you get your +1s and +2s for the stat, and perfect rolls are unnecessary. Getting +2 or +3 EP instead of +4 should also be fine. Furthermore, a "perfect" HP roll isn't necessary since many different rolls will give the same value since it's a percentage multiplier with no decimals. For example, +7.20% and +7.21% will likely yield the same value. @bonecrusher1022 I have a question about the spreadsheet you shared because I think there may be a mistake. For the 5 main character, the difference between the maximum and minimum stat experience rolls for each stat is 201, except for Trunks' Endurance, which your spreadsheet suggests is a difference 191. I'm pretty sure the maximum Endurance should be 0x17E instead of 0x174. Is the data on your spreadsheet from the US version of the game? I've also been sampling for the stats of Trunks in the intro. His level 1 stats for Strength, Power, and Endurance are 6, 3, and 4 respectively, or 1536, 768, and 1024 when considering them as 256 stat experience per point. Per level-up, he gains 287-487 Strength, 172-372 Power, and 182-382 Endurance. This would lead to hypothetical minimums and maximums of 2971/3971, 1628/2628, and 1934/2934. What's strange is that in just a sample of less than 1000, I've achieved all of these values. This suggests to me that setting stats for a new character uses different mechanics because the chance of absolute perfect or anti-perfect stats is basically zero. Furthermore, I've had 3975, 2632, and 2938 as maximums so far, which are all 4 points higher than what should be possible, while the minimums are matching. I'm thinking something in the calculation adds a tiny bit extra or something. The stat experience for the samples also has a wide spread of results, so it's not simply taking one roll and multiplying it by the number of levels, so I'm really curious with how the game handles obtaining new characters. My current guess is that it takes the minimum and maximum values per level, multiplies them by the number of levels, and then sets that as the range.
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I spent some time researching how HP and EP works, and I believe I figured it out. Neither of them have a stat experience value like Strength, Power, and Endurance, but instead have a simple calculation per level up and the same for each character. For HP, the increase is a percentage of the current maximum HP, ranging from 5.49% to 7.49%, with an average of 6.49%. I tested this by poking the HP memory address before a level-up to 10,000 to see a nice spread. It seems like the result is uniformly distributed as well, both by skimming the counts of each possibility and that the average is exactly in the middle. Because HP increases based on the current maximum, the effect is compounding, giving much greater value to high increases at lower levels, and not mattering as much at higher levels. For a TAS however, HP is generally irrelevant. For EP, it is simply a uniform distribution of +2, +3, or +4. EP is a somewhat important stat as it allows for longer duration of Super Saiyan/Namek, and even without generally worrying about it running out, needing less manipulation for energy drops could help save frames. With better understanding of the RNG and stats now, I'll redo my sampling and see if I discover any more interesting results that could be helpful for a TAS.
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bonecrusher1022 wrote:
This is really useful information! Thank you t3h_Icy! When we did the first TAS, we didn't manipulate anything beyond STR since we figured that was the most important lol. I did have someone else look at this game before and they found the exact ranges of stat experience you can get per level up. This was mostly just out of curiosity cause people always were curious what the highest/lowest rolls could be. It varies per character and I don't think it ever got posted before. Seeing now this doesn't have HP or EP either unfortunately but covers the other stats. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11Eh_8vJUnt6Wfm4DLrspOJ_mxAJe5k0FgPtzNF0LUbM/edit?gid=0#gid=0 Surprisingly despite the amount of possibilities, we didn't waste hardly any time in our first TAS for it and there happened to be pretty good ones right near the start. I don't remember exactly what they all were off hand though haha. Not sure if ASDQ has any interest in doing another one or not. I actually had no idea it existed until like a month after it came out and the WR holder found it and posted it on discord.
Thanks for sharing that spreadsheet, very interesting! Do you happen to know if HP and EP use a stat experience function? I spent some time searching through memory addresses, but couldn't find anything for them. I'm curious if they simply don't use it, or if they're a function of the other stats.
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TL;DR: Stats have stat experience which affects the stats of obtaining characters and level ups, Trunks's stats in the intro adds to his stats later in the game, and higher stat values are possible compared to what the TASes used. Inspired by ASDQ's TAS, I've been researching the RNG and character stats of this game and have found many interesting and exciting results to share! First as had already been shared by previous TASers, RNG in this game pulls from two different addresses: 3890 (4 bytes) and 3894 (4 bytes), and the formula for advancing RNG uses both values and then also updates both values. It can somewhat be thought of having 8 bytes worth of values for RNG, but I can't confirm if the stats use both of them, and it's also difficult to know if all 18.4 quintillion possibilities can naturally occur, or if the RNG would loop at some point, making some combinations impossible to reach. In any case, it's mega overkill for this game, but does make many potential results and research inconclusive until either the game is disassembled, the stat calculation is perfectly understood, or someone crazy brute forces all possibilities for every situation. I wrote up a bit of Lua scripting to rapidly roll different character stats both when first obtaining the character and when leveling, and ran it thousands of times. Some of the results also came out better than what ASDQ was able to achieve, which I'll go into more below. RNG doesn't advance all that much during normal play, and often running around and bumping into objects helps move it forward. My method was to use the pause menu which advances RNG every frame. I would pause just as a blast is about to hit an enemy that would give me a level-up, and then test every frame that I could unpause on. I used similar methods for obtaining new characters. It's worth noting that while there is a pop-up to show the increase to Strength, Power, and Endurance, HP and EP also are increased by random amounts, and also roll different values when first getting a character. These two can only be checked by manually going into the pause menu though. For an RTA run, good values for HP and EP are helpful, and for TASing, high EP values allow for extra blasts and longer Super Saiyan/Namek duration, making it valuable. I'm unsure if the previous TASers manipulated RNG to get good values for it, but there could be some potential time save with a better value. Next, stat values also have fractional amounts and are not just the displayed amounts. For example, Gohan's Strength as shown on the character screen is at address 0EA7 (1 byte), and the fractional amount is at 0EA6 (1 byte), which ranges from 0 to 255. An alternative way of viewing it is like a stat experience value, as once it reaches 256, it goes back to 0 and increases the actual stat by 1. This is why it sometimes seems like no matter what you do, one stat only goes up by 1, or even sometimes 0, while other stats seem to be able to increase by 2. In fact, you can increase a stat by 3 with one level-up if the stat experience is close to 255, and you get a large increase to that stat after. These also vary when first obtaining a character. This means that when obtaining a new character, 20 strength and 20 strength or +1 Power and +1 Power for two different RNG rolls are not necessarily equal if the stat experience value is higher. Tracking these for every stat for every character would be very helpful for RNG manipulation for a TAS. From what I can tell, capsules, hacking memory addresses where stats are, stat values in relation to other stat values, and other ideas have zero effect on how much you get on a level-up. My theory is that each level simply gives a random amount of stat experience to each stat, and once that amount goes over 255, it increases the corresponding stat by 1. How much of this is possible per level per character is a bit more difficult to test. I'm also curious if the way the game works when a new character is obtained is they are treated as a level 1 character and then instantly gained multiple levels to their starting level. Evidence for this is that all characters have very low stat values at the beginning of the game, that boost way up to what you normally see when obtaining the characters. For example, Piccolo's Strength when you boot up the game is 4, but when you first obtain him at level 10, it can vary from 11 to 18. As an aside, when hacking the level experience values in memory, the level is instantly auto-adjusted based on the experience formula, but it has no effect on stats immediately or at level-up. If you were to take a level 50 character and set their level down to 20 for example, they would continue as normal as a level 20 character, just that they would have very high stats, but continue to gain them in a normal matter. Hacking stat values to be over 100 seems to function as if they were that high, but once you get a level-up, they are forced down to 100 and capped there. Gohan at the beginning of the game at level 1 has no stat variance, including the stat experience. Going from level 1 to level 2 when defeating Frieza had the following ranges: HP: 89-91 (increase of 4-6) EP: 22-24 (increase of 2-4) Strength: 4-5 (increase of 1-2) Power: 6 (increase of 1) Endurance: 6 (increase of 1) However, the stat experience values all wildly ranged alongside these. In terms of the display values, it was possible to get everything maxed out, but even within different sets of those, there would be various stat experience values, so it's difficult to determine what is the absolute best possibility. As a test, I also hacked the Strength stat experience value to 255 and could get +3s when I would otherwise have got +2, which is supportive of these theories of how the game works. For many other level-ups before I had learned about the stat experience mechanic, what's interesting is that there didn't seem to be patterns in individual stats, but I saw many patterns in the sums of the stats, sometimes alternating two different numbers for hundreds of rolls in a row, and other types. I'm not sure if this is a result of how the RNG formula ends up affecting the stat calculation, or if it was a coincidence due to the particular stat experience values, but I did see this for many level-ups, suggesting it's the stat calculation. When already RNG manipulating to get critical hits, NPC actions, etc, specifically trying to get a good RNG roll for level-ups could cost more time than the extra stat increases would actually save, especially with the difficulty of even determining what the ideal roll would be. This creates a very wide open optimization problem for anyone who TASes this game in the future. TAS improvements would likely constantly be gaining and losing time in different areas, and it could be difficult to determine what the end result would be after some amount of optimization had already been achieved. For Piccolo, these are the stat ranges when first obtaining him: HP: 152-172 EP: 39-55 Strength: 11-18 Power: 12-19 Endurance: 12-19 TOTAL: 226-283 After over 16,000 rolls, the lowest and highest totals I obtained were 237 and 274, indicating that the limitations of the RNG and stat calculation formulas may mean most possibilities are not actually possible. I noticed this also with many level-ups of characters until I later realized the stat experience component. However, some of these Piccolos are still better than what the current TAS used. Some examples are 168/52/18/19/17 and 163/50/18/19/19. In particular with the second set, the Strength stat experience was high enough such that the next level-up could get +2 to 20, which ASDQ specifically said in his commentary he could not achieve and had to get 19, which is likely because his particular Piccolo with 18 Strength had low Strength stat experience and likely was just barely an 18. This is an excellent example of the importance of tracking stat experience. For Vegeta, he is obtained immediately after a cutscene which doesn't allow for RNG manipulation within it. It takes significantly more time to check a different RNG roll, so my sample for Vegeta was much smaller, and it's possible that even better results are still possible. For a TAS to complete the game though, there are many NPCs roaming around just before the cutscene, allowing for ease of RNG manipulation, just that actually checking the result is very time-consuming. HP: 272-310 EP: 64-81 Strength: 21-34 Power: 18-31 Endurance: 22-35 TOTAL: 397-491 Like Piccolo, the lowest and highest totals of actual rolls were 416 and 474. ASDQ mentions that he went for a Vegeta with 32 Strength and 30 Power, as higher Strength rolls generally had lower Power rolls. However, I found some very good Vegeta sets such as 287/78/34/31/34. Even with taking some extra frames to manipulate a good Vegeta stat roll, he's used quite a lot in the run and I think there would be a lot of time save. For Trunks, the first important thing is that future Trunks in the opening of a new game has random stats as well, and the higher these are, the higher they will be when he becomes a playable character later in the game! RNG advances every frame before starting the game, so it's very easy to manipulate good rolls without losing too much time. Below are his stats in the beginning. HP: 142-154 EP: 30-40 Strength: 11-15 Power: 6-10 Endurance: 7-11 TOTAL: 196-230 As with other characters, the lowest and highest totals of actual rolls were 203 and 224. The roll I went with was 150/37/15/10/11, and this is important to note because the rolls I obtained later in the game are dependent on these. I hadn't optimized for stat experience with this, so even higher stats may be possible when later obtaining Trunks. For obtaining Trunks, his stats are rolled as the cutscene with Kami ends, which is thankfully quite a bit earlier than when you gain control again. Note that it usually takes 2 frames instead of 1 to calculate his stats, so make sure to adjust any Lua scripting to check accordingly. HP: 502-582 EP: 90-111 Strength: 39-55 Power: 24-40 Endurance: 26-42 TOTAL: 681-830 The lowest and highest totals of actual rolls were 714 and 805. Trunks has highly varying stats, and he's important for fast runs, so good RNG manipulation is likely worth it even if you have to wait a number of frames. ASDQ's TAS had 52 Strength, and having 55 instead, especially as those extra points carry for the rest of the game, would likely save a lot of time. Other stats also don't necessarily need to be sacrificed, and it may also be helpful to have extra Power and EP. Some good sets I found are 543/108/55/40/27, 521/102/55/40/27, and 555/110/55/27/32. For Goku, his stats are rolled when Dende activates the dragon. Manipulating these would be quite a bit harder to do, but they're also very important for a fast run after. HP: 728-874 EP: 111-134 Strength: 38-65 Power: 40-67 Endurance: 32-58 TOTAL: 990-1144 The lowest and highest totals of actual rolls were 949 and 1198. ASDQ's TAS had found 65/49 Strength and Power, but used 63/65. The best set I found was 809/129/65/66/44, and there were a few more 65 Strengths with Power in the 60s, but I didn't find any 65/67 rolls. I wouldn't be surprised if some existed though, since it will likely be rare just by how much the stats vary in the first place. --- I hope this information is found useful for TASing this game, or even just playing it normally! There's still a lot more to be discovered and optimized for anyone who is interested in this. For future data collection, I would recommend setting all of a character's values to 0, including the stat experience, and then measuring what's possible in terms of stat experience, instead of just the on-screen values. This would be far more precise is analyzing what's possible as it would also be impacting the stats that could be gained after level-ups after.
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Smash Remix 1.5.0 - Home-Run Contest Playaround I made a playaround TAS of the popular Smash Remix mod. Check it out!
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I made a full-game playaround for Kirby 64! Check it out! Link to video
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Here's to another 4 year bump. I improved my TAS of Fin to 1.40 using the same methodology and going for much longer. I would love to see what a well-coded bot could come up with!
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I made a full game playaround for Zelda 2! It involves using lots of entertaining gameplay, speedy actions, and cool combat that you won't normally see in speedruns. Check it out! Link to video
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Amazing TAS! Thoroughly entertaining, highly varied, lots of little surprises, and at a great length! Easy yes vote!
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Amazing TAS! Easy yes vote!
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I spent the time to make a TAS of all 32 levels in Challenge Mode with the goal of getting the highest score possible. Here's a playlist link containing all of them. Here are individual level links if you prefer: 1-1 - 165100 1-2 - 153750 1-3 - 117400 1-4 - 17550 2-1 - 268300 2-2 - 31400 2-3 - 38900 2-4 - 18100 3-1 - 1416450 3-2 - 325300 3-3 - 67500 3-4 - 18050 4-1 - 42700 4-2 - 1412050 4-3 - 79100 4-4 - 20100 5-1 - 1037700 5-2 - 1417650 5-3 - 116300 5-4 - 17700 6-1 - 43050 6-2 - 1362450 6-3 - 31300 6-4 - 17650 7-1 - 2066700 7-2 - 31200 7-3 - 98600 7-4 - 19550 8-1 - 204050 8-2 - 1424350 8-3 - 112000 8-4 - 215050 Total Score - 12407050 (in-game score caps at 9999990) Some of these are ~100% maxed out, while others should be very good but there could be possible improvements left. I also played with no restrictions, and used techniques such as left and right simultaneously for faster acceleration, pausing for RNG manipulation, and more. Enjoy!
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I tried a bunch of ideas at the block, but nothing seems too hopeful. I think most realistically there will be no way to do it. I'm not the expert though. After you die, you're placed back into the room with the sunset in the background. It has the skull robots who are very mobile and can probably give any desired coordinates for you to kill it and have it drop an Energy Refill. If not, you can go pretty far both back and forth in the level, and many of the other rooms have enemies that move around a lot. I'm thinking that this will pan out to be a cool exhibition which will just have to require using a password. On the positive, depending on the potency of the glitch, it could still be faster to complete the game than using the password to skip straight to Mr. X. That's the most optimistic result though.
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On the matter of hypothetical ideas, it is possible to slide over the cracked block into the Energy Balancer room if you can do so in mid-air somehow. The ladder trick where you have an invisible platform after climbing down doesn't quite work in this case, but it could suggest that some other method may exist. If you could get in there, you can get the Energy Balancer, slide out of the room into the cracked block, which would kill you, and you would start in the room with those jumpy skull robots. If the glitch is indeed affected by Energy Refill coordinates, this would be the perfect place for setting up any desired result. Essentially, if there is a way to get the Energy Balancer without passwords, Tomahawk Man's stage could potentially be the only level you would need to enter. That's a big if though.
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Very interesting, I'm excited to see someone looking into it. As said, different enemies would give different effects, but the same specific enemy would in most cases give the same specific effect. My wild guess would be it involves something with the values of what screen you're on. In the same rooms, I could get each enemy to give the same result each time, and the longer, scrolling rooms are where multiple effects can happen. Similarly, I haven't found any cases where this glitch can be triggered in rooms near the beginning of the level, perhaps when the address is 00? I'm also assuming based on that piece of code that there's no other way to trigger the glitch other than having no weapons, which is also good information. Would this mean that there are a total of 256 possible effects from this glitch? 9 would be from weapons under normal circumstances, and I would guess the majority of the rest would cause odd effects. Perhaps it would also be possible to skip the other 7 Robot Masters by refilling their energies. I'm guessing that the game just checks what weapons have ammo for determining which you should have, and has some other flag for empty weapons. I'm assuming a lot here since I don't have the assembly code handy, but I think a lot of it could turn out correct. Edit: I was messing around with this some more and managed to get a softlock on the password screen. When I initially experimented with the glitch, I did notice getting multiple passwords for the same settings, but didn't think much of it. It's likely that the game gets stuck when it fails creating a password, which could actually hinder a lot of the possibilities. I believe that I got this from playing out Wind Man's stage as seen in my TAS, dying, and then killing the second panda robot twice for two small energy capsules.
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Energy Balancer Glitches When you have the Energy Balancer and no weapons to refill, you can get some strange glitches when you pick up Energy Refills. The effects seem to be widely varying, and are particular to where exactly you pick them up. I'm not sure what specifically decides what effects you get, but they seem to consistently occur. In the video, I demonstrate that by using the glitch in Wind Man's stage, I finish the level with all the weapons from Wind, Centaur, and Knight, also getting Beat Part A, and having Centaur's stage completed. In this particular case, Knight would still have to be defeated normally, but Centaur can indeed be skipped. The obvious roadblock is that there's no known way to get the Energy Balancer without other weapons because it requires Rush Power, which you get with Flame Man's weapon. The only way currently is to use passwords. If there were a way to clip into the room and grab the Energy Balancer, there could potentially be some serious game-breaking results. I haven't explored very much with this glitch, so there could be a lot more interesting effects. It might be wise to study it with memory watches or a deeper understanding of the game's code and try to figure out what exactly is going on.
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I made TASes of all of the Driver's Ed courses: Course 1 - 17:50 Course 2 - 20.98 Course 3 - 22.92 Course 4 - 22.88 Course 5 - 25.40 Additional information is in the video comments. Edit: Improved the first course.
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Hope nobody minds this 5-days-short-of-a-decade bump. C1 - 3.45 Fin - 1.88 I spent some time TASing the stage challenges and the non-TAS world records seem to be very strong. I tied a lot of them, and the others I either couldn't solve to match the record, or couldn't get the necessary RNG (D1-D5), so I've only made videos of ones that are actually faster. The RNG also seems to be very rarely called by anything, so a quickly designed custom stage that both creates and clears our mice/cats is the best method I found. Most of the values seem to give "clumpy" results as well, that is, running the custom stage across 10 frames may yield identical results for each of them. This isn't always true, but the patterns are very slow to change. I definitely recommend trying out this game for any puzzle-savvy TASers, or those who are interested in bot work for the 100 Mice /Final Battle challenges, given how deterministic the game is. It seems to be pretty maxed out as is though.
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I made a few TASes of Dragon Warrior for fun. The runs essentially act as solutions to math problems. I'm very confident the routes are all optimized, but I didn't spend any time making RNG manipulation occur as fast as possible. Low Level Gwaelin Rescue Low Level Bad Ending "Low%"
Post subject: Mario Party 2
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I'm somewhat surprised no thread for this game exists. I suppose that's because it's hard to create a good goal for a submittable TAS. Anyway, I made a playaround TAS of the entire mini-game coaster I wanted to share: Link to video
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Link to video I made a full-game playaround TAS of Mega Man 4, check it out! Rather than purely focusing on speed, this involves messing with glitches, oddities, tricks, and other shenanigans! I highly recommend watching it in 720p60 for 60FPS.
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Agreed with Bobo, it irks me too. If "cosmic ray bit flips" were the cause, we'd constantly be seeing crazy happenings all the time in all kinds of different games.
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Nice job!
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Weatherton wrote:
So I just realized that skipping the first key would very likely be done in the 120 star run as well. Is there any reason not to do that? Am I missing something that would make it slower?
You would need the red coin star in there, so it's slower to skip the first key.
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