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This Movie's Traits

  • Recorded in FCEUX 2.1.4a
  • Controls 2 players
  • Uses deaths to save time
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Manipulates luck
  • Contains speed/entertainment tradeoffs

The Used Characters

I used one Toad & one Dragon, for this is a crossover game and the run must represent it. Pimple and Billy have the longest jumps, though they are initializing slower, than jumps of the rest characters. This choice allows me to cross long pits in the third level. And each member of the Toad+Dragon team can save time differently in different places.

Tricks and Glitches

Common tricks of the NES Battletoads engine are:
  • Hyper jump: run and jump at once. Allows to charge in midair.
  • Initiaizing the fatal attack on one object & releasing it onto another.
  • Left+Right glitch, with different results, like diagonal & vertical running.
  • Killing bosses with all the same lower attack.
  • Jumping above the screen when sitting on the jet.
Exclusive tricks of this run:
  • Hitting emenies through the walls.
  • Catching the dynamite through the wall.
  • Running through the grid borders, crawling on the wall in Level 2-2.
  • Flying jet in Level 2-3.
  • Air jumping & air running with the help of Left+Right glitch in Level 5.
  • Hitting the item capsule & the enemy at once minimizing the lag.
  • Acting with empty HP bar in Level 5.
Hint
After the dragon comes out of the 3rd door of this level, he has NO lives & NO HP. Once the Toad hits the enemy, the Dragon gets 1 HP block back for unknown reason.

Lag

This game uses Raw PCM samples for voicing attacks, which causes tons of lag while they are playing. This means that for the fastest completion you need to use as little laggy attacks as possible.
A 2 player run causes lag in some scenes, where much less lag appears for 1 player. Especially in Level 3.
The space level has some strange delay of the discharged shots. You may shot a burst of 9 bullets (each part of the Rat Ship requires 9) and only 5 or 6 of them would reach the target instantly. The rest will appear from nowere ~10 frames later & fly towards the target. They will appear from any place you were at while shoting them. If you shot 9 bullets & fly off, you will see how they appear from the void.
I managed to minimize these delays only at the end of the Rat Ship battle by dying.

RNG and enemies' AI

I didn't use scripts or disassemble the code, as all of the luck management can be made with the "trial and error" method. But this game still has lots of things that shall be manipulated.
Which frame enemy appears at, which character it chases, how does it react on your attacks. Which type of attack your character uses on the Boss.
There were also some actions that caused the desired circumstances by accident. For example, the appearance of the third life from the Rat Ship occured after taking damage, as well as re-aiming of my missle on the enemy instead of this life object.
Even the beat-'em-up Level 5 required manipulating the chasing of rats. If they chase the wrong character, they fall down the screen & can't be beaten.

Bosses

This game has 2 types of bosses.
The first one has normal HP, just like all the rest enemies have, and its suffering status allows you to initialize the final blow, killing the boss instantly.
The other type has only the hit count, required to kill him. These bosses don't care about the type of punch they get, the counter just decreases by one each time.
But here another problem raises - the fastest hit animation. It is lower fist (or elbow) attack, which doesn't fling the suffering boss around the screen. Here you need some input manipulation. Will describe it on the future Source Page for Bt&DD.

Abobo

The second simpliest boss. If you hit the correct place & timing, you can kick him through the wall at the first frame of his existance. As he gets this hit, he starts his life from suffering status & animation. This can initialize the fatal attack on him. But after he is dead, he requires one more hit to be blown away. It is automatically animated as a final attack.

Big Blag

The easiest boss. One player hits him & the other initializes his final blow from the suffering boss.

Roper

Rather crazy boss. It has 2 possible actions: hitting you with his machine-gun or jumping before firing (accompanied by siren). The second one is optimal & shall be manipulated.
Gets 2 hits before he actually starts his life.

Ratship

Each part of it requires 9 shots, but if you have 2 players, there's a delay. It can take hits after it finishes shaking.

Robo-Manus

Can't be manipulated to act anyhow. He seems to have the separate timer for his attacks. Though they are all identical.
Gets a hit before he appears from the wall.

Shadow Boss

Has 3 possible actions: doing nothing, hitting the second (only) player and disappearing. All the manipulation is done by the second player, as he doesn't see the first player's object. After each 10 hits he turns into a tenon-thrasing form. Requires 32 hits in total.
I used 2 player to manipulate Shadow Boss so that he will be easy to hit by the toad & won't disappear. If he is on one vertical level with the dragon (and is close enough horizontally) - he instantly starts punching him

Dark Queen

After she gets some number of fast hits, starts diving into the floor. This can be stopped by one more hit each time. I kept the Dragon for these additional hits.

The Life & Death Matter

The first life I sacrificed is Billy's one in Level 2-3. Just for fun.
A bunch of lives is given up in Level 3-2 to cross the great gap by kicking the partner before death, 2 deaths were taken by Billy to kick Pimple up onto the platform, and one - to minimize the collision detection on electric walls part.
In Level 4-1 all deaths are for fun, and in 4-2 they allowed to prevent shotting delay.
The first death in Level 5 is to minimize lag, occuring when 2 dynamiters die at once. And the second death (right after hitting Robo-Manus) is because Pimple had no time to jump high enough to prevent dying from falling down during the shock animation.
The last 2 lifes lost on level 7 were for fun.

Entertainment

I was trying to keep this level high enough. Even though it means that some laggy actions shall be made. Anyway, the only tradeoff is allowing some lag for entertaining actions. There're no unnecessary stops.

Special Thanks go to

  • AnS for following all my WIPs & keeping my entertainment value high, giving advices from the normal viewer's point.
  • Aglar for checking my WIPs for the purpose of speed.
  • Ash Williams for some useful minor tricks.
  • Adelikat & Zeromus for this awesome tool TAS Edit, where the entire run was made.

Suggested Screenshot

https://vadosnaprimer.github.io/dropbox/Battletoads-Double-Dragon-TAS-feos.PNG
I'm open for any better suggestions.
TAS Edit gives 0 rerecord, so I've written there the number I like.
DarkKobold: The rerecord count should be set to zero, so it doesn't mess with statistics. Otherwise, claiming.
DarkKobold: Accepting, as this run was amazingly entertaining and fun. The majority also agree that the final ten seconds should be left in, so the run will be accepted as is.
Now, this run will obsolete the SNES run, for two reasons:
  1. There isn't much difference between the NES and SNES version. While the SNES has much better graphics, it lacks the glitches that make this run more entertaining. I doubt that there is reason to have runs of both NES and SNES on this site, and thus, the NES wins.
  2. It is evident in the previous SNES run that it is one player playing two characters - the characters either move in an identical fashion, or mirror image, during the majority of the run. It lacks any of the play that this had, and uses the same moveset for the entirety of the run. The play-around in this new movie is much better, all around.
Brandon: Publication underway.

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Posted: 5/16/2011 3:49 AM
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Forge121
Joined: 1/2/2011
Posts: 8
I didn't even notice what you were talking about when it came to the last 10 seconds or whatever. Granted, I was watching an encode, so I didn't know when exactly input ended, but the point of the matter is that for the rest of the run the two player were fighting each other, it would just be weird for them to stand still as soon as the final blow is landed. Final point: It was entertaining, I voted yes.
Posted: 5/16/2011 3:56 AM
(Edited: 3/24/2024 7:50 PM)
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
Did FODA's toad disappear for some seconds? Did another toad get a hit from the AIR while thinking he defeated his toad-partner & was going to take the bonus item?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 5/16/2011 5:31 AM
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Ferret_Warlord
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People kvetching about 10 seconds at the end are silly. I love this run! In a weird way I was thinking about Darkwing Duck when watching, seeing how our heroes consistently demonstrated sheer incompetence by doing things like running into open electrical fields like magnets and beating each other up and otherwise constantly "arguing" about things. But at the end of the day, they were still able to pull off the job magnificently well. I can imagine the citizens of earth looking at them and thinking, "How the deuce did these morons do such a good job in face of their incompetence?" Idiot savants indeed.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 5/16/2011 5:39 AM
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scrimpeh
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TAS of 2017 First edition TAS of 2017 PSX TAS of 2017
So, we really have no better problems than 10 extra seconds at the end (hint: File > Movie > Stop Movie)? I am seriously disappointed. For the record, great run, voting yes
Posted: 5/16/2011 6:10 AM
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Nach
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Just for the record, if you beat this run by submitting something 10 seconds *faster* by stopping to record sooner, we judges will just subconsciously add 10 seconds onto your "record" anyway. Stop getting worked up by extra input at the end of a run. Once you see the actual end, anything that does or doesn't happen is of no consequence. Worry about how many frames there were to reach the end, that's where the competition needs to be, not what happens after. If the credits roll allowed you to do all sorts of funny stuff during it, we'd love you to keep recording at that point. Remember, the movie we make shows the entire ending+credits, and full loop of the ending/credits music. It doesn't stop exactly when input stops. Everyone here, judges or viewers, are intelligent enough to differentiate between the actual ending and further playing around that can be done during credits roll.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 5/16/2011 6:32 AM
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Warp
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Nach wrote:
Stop getting worked up by extra input at the end of a run. Once you see the actual end, anything that does or doesn't happen is of no consequence. Worry about how many frames there were to reach the end, that's where the competition needs to be, not what happens after.
This is a bit in odds with the rules, which state: "It should end with the last input. Don't leave any blank input at the end of the movie." Sure, you are not talking about blank input, but I believe the spirit of the rule is "the keypress file should end where the game ends". And that makes sense for practical reasons: If a keypress file could be as long as one wants (iow. have any amount of stuff after the end of the game), it would mess up with the automated movie length calculations. Suddenly you could have a 1-hour movie obsoleting a 10-minute one, yet still being claimed as being faster.
Everyone here, judges or viewers, are intelligent enough to differentiate between the actual ending and further playing around that can be done during credits roll.
But the server software isn't. It would be confusing and raise questions if a seemingly significantly longer movie obsoletes a shorter one, yet still was claimed to be "x frames faster". It makes automatic timing reporting easier if the keypress file ends when the game ends. Moreover, it requires less work from the publishers and editors because they can see the length of the movie from the keypress file (which is what the server reports) rather than having to figure it out by estimating at which frame the game actually ends. With some games this might even be heavily a question of interpretation. The length of the keypress file is unambiguous.
Posted: 5/16/2011 6:42 AM
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Nach
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Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
Stop getting worked up by extra input at the end of a run. Once you see the actual end, anything that does or doesn't happen is of no consequence. Worry about how many frames there were to reach the end, that's where the competition needs to be, not what happens after.
This is a bit in odds with the rules, which state: "It should end with the last input. Don't leave any blank input at the end of the movie."
If you submitted such a movie, we'd just trim the null input for you, no big deal. The idea is not to make extra work for us. Also recall the fight of four opinions on movie end.
Warp wrote:
Sure, you are not talking about blank input, but I believe the spirit of the rule is "the keypress file should end where the game ends".
Yes, but there can be exceptions. Battletoads in Battlemaniacs is one of them. The rule is talking about 99% of the time where there is no game after the game.
Warp wrote:
And that makes sense for practical reasons: If a keypress file could be as long as one wants (iow. have any amount of stuff after the end of the game), it would mess up with the automated movie length calculations. Suddenly you could have a 1-hour movie obsoleting a 10-minute one, yet still being claimed as being faster.
And indeed, such issues come up when switching between versions, which have happened before. We deal with it on a case by case basis.
Warp wrote:
Everyone here, judges or viewers, are intelligent enough to differentiate between the actual ending and further playing around that can be done during credits roll.
But the server software isn't. It would be confusing and raise questions if a seemingly significantly longer movie obsoletes a shorter one, yet still was claimed to be "x frames faster". It makes automatic timing reporting easier if the keypress file ends when the game ends. Moreover, it requires less work from the publishers and editors because they can see the length of the movie from the keypress file (which is what the server reports) rather than having to figure it out by estimating at which frame the game actually ends. With some games this might even be heavily a question of interpretation. The length of the keypress file is unambiguous.
You are correct. But we've already had to deal with ambiguous times differences due to changing between U to J and J to U in the past. In cases like this, it's also easy to figure out, just subtract actual game end time from what happens later. Also recall that once in our history, sgrunt's double obsoletion Metroid run obsoleted a movie which was a few frames faster than it. We've also had FCEU(X) runs obsolete *faster* Famtasia runs where we had to calculate if it was faster or not by differentiating the PAL at NTSC speed difference. None of us here are that stupid that we can't deal with a couple of extra seconds at the end of a run.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 5/16/2011 7:13 AM
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
Maybe my current revision is just aiming to the best in-game time or something? The ingame timer here doesn't drop out all laggy frames, but counts untill the actual end of the level (Level Clear fanfare) in concord with the real time (didn't check this precisely though). I just didn't think this feature would be such an issue, as I allowed tradeoffs.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 5/16/2011 1:41 PM
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nesrocks
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I haven't watched the run yet (I'm at work), but your animated gif is hilarious. Great work! Let me put it simple: the length of the AVI is what matters. If you want to compare a run that doesn't fool around at the end with one that does, just compare the time of the last input necessary to make the avi as short as possible. There's nothing complicated in that. Everyone knows my position regarding entertainment/speed tradeoffs, and for that I congratulate feos on at least the little I've seen through that gif. If there is some bot that compares movie files by length then it is doing it wrong. There should be some parameter added by user and verified by a judge of when is the real end frame of the game. Compare that. Or don't.
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Posted: 5/16/2011 3:42 PM
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diggidoyo
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First edition TAS of 2015
Priam wrote:
Besides, if you object to those last ten seconds, then there's always alt-f4 when watching.
It's not so much that I'm offended by the extra action. What I actually have a problem with, is that it seems like an unfair penalty to author to continue playing after the game ends. I liked all the messing around, too, but the fact that it adds 10 seconds to the final time is what bothers me. The way I see it, the final time should be tallied when the game-ending trigger is initiated (final hit registered, touching the axe in SMB, etc), and anything after that not counted. This will allow for post-game celebrations such as this with no repercussions.
Posted: 5/16/2011 3:53 PM
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feos
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Brandon wrote:
That said, there might be some actual tradeoffs here. For example, in the second to last boss battle, why did you throw the toad when he could have been used to kill the boss faster? That might have been able to save some actual time. I'm sure there are other examples like this. Could you explain this? P.S. I wish I took up your offer to potentially co-author this thing, but I probably would have gotten in your way. :\
These thoughts aren't clear for me. Rephrase please. EDIT: Added "Bosses" section.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 5/16/2011 7:54 PM
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DarkKobold
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diggidoyo wrote:
it seems like an unfair penalty to author to continue playing after the game ends. I liked all the messing around, too, but the fact that it adds 10 seconds to the final time is what bothers me.
Once again, this isn't purely a records site. There are plenty of published movies that have speed sacrificed for entertainment purposes. The only real difference here is that no 'speed' is sacrificed, just the length of the input file. The game's ending would still last the exact same amount of time. The only time that ending input early should really matter is when a clever solution to do so arises - when this happens, it generally ads to the coolness factor of the movie. See [1775] SNES Donkey Kong Country by Tompa in 08:13.72, [944] NES River City Ransom "2 players" by Chamale in 06:53.42, and [1543] NES Gimmick! by Aglar & Hotarubi in 05:11.49 for examples of cool ways to end the input earlier than expected.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 5/16/2011 8:49 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
The only concern I'd see with the listed time being inaccurate are for purposes of comparison with non-tool-assisted speedruns, and I can't see that being a particularly big issue. Certainly not one worth voting no for. If the author's willing to add on some entertainment at the end after the run is complete, who am I to argue? Similarly I'd have zero objection to e.g. playing with the input display (like the old Super Metroid 100% run did) during the credits.
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Posted: 5/16/2011 10:21 PM
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Warp
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Derakon wrote:
The only concern I'd see with the listed time being inaccurate are for purposes of comparison with non-tool-assisted speedruns, and I can't see that being a particularly big issue. Certainly not one worth voting no for. If the author's willing to add on some entertainment at the end after the run is complete, who am I to argue?
If the "official" time is not shown anywhere, only the length of the input file, it can be pretty confusing for someone who would want to improve on the movie exactly which time he should be aiming for. (As said, with some games the exact termination point can be heavily a matter of opinion.)
Posted: 5/17/2011 12:36 AM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Yeah, but anyone going for an improvement should make it their first priority to read the publication thread for their target, since that's where known improvements are most commonly discussed. In reading the thread they will also encounter the debate on when the movie ends and what its "actual" time is. Not to mention they'd watch the movie, go "Hunh, these ten seconds at the end aren't actually needed, but presumably my predecessor had them in there for a reason." In short, this is a situation in which basic common sense will save the day. Hooray!
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 5/17/2011 10:52 AM
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henke37
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If we are going to argue about ending times, we must mention Monopoly
Posted: 5/17/2011 12:14 PM
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mklip2001
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I finally got around to watching this. Much thanks for the encode in the submission! As for the run, at first, I was worried it was just going to feel like the SNES run by White Gastra. However, the style in this run is amazing. I'm very impressed by the playfulness of the two players... making one a Toad and one a Dragon was also a very good choice. There was hardly a dull moment. Stage 3 was especially impressive with the death abuse for crossing gaps quicker than intended. I do think that some deaths looked particularly out of place, but they didn't distract from the movie too much. I'm also fine if those deaths aid in luck manipulation. Also, the ending playaround is fine by me... as DarkKobold said, the game will end at the same time regardless of whether there is a playaround or not, and there isn't anything creative to do that ends the input way earlier than expected. Very nice job, feos! I'm happy to vote Yes on this. What I don't know, however, is whether this should be published alongside the SNES run or obsolete it. Historically, the NES version of the game was made first, and we tend to prefer games made on the original version.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 5/17/2011 12:40 PM
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
Yeah, this was the original, and all others (GB, Gen, SNES) were ports. With different amount of awesome stuff from the original, speaking about the gameplay. As for TASing tricks, I didn't check either the SNES one contains all of them, or just few, or no at all. In total, the gameplay is the same, and strategies for saving time are most probably the same. I really don't know if we shall try obsoleting the SNES version by its own, & keep both versions TASed, but I personally doubt we shall. And what deaths were out of place?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 5/17/2011 5:00 PM
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AnS
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DarkKobold wrote:
AnS wrote:
BTW, if this submission is approved as a precedent, does it mean that all Battletoads runs must end at the fadeout screen instead of last hit?
You are missing the entire point of my statement. While the movie file could end ten seconds earlier, the actual end of the game would not come any sooner.
Not true.
    * if the movie ends as soon as possible (17:31 file), actual ending happens at frame 66236 * if the movie ends after some fun (this 17:41 submission file), actual ending happens at frame 66281 (45 frames later: 37 frames of lag + waiting takes longer than normally)
DarkKobold wrote:
Once again, this isn't a records site.
But the movie is not a playaround either.
Posted: 5/17/2011 5:20 PM
(Edited: 5/17/2011 5:56 PM)
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
Ah, AnS.
TASVideoAgent wrote:
<h3>Entertainment</h3><div class="deeper"> I was trying to keep this level high enough. Even though it means that some laggy actions shall be made. Anyway, the only tradeoff is allowing some lag for entertaining actions. There're no unnecessary stops. </div>
You see, all the lag was allowed for entertainment. If I just ran around the floor without hits, it'd be the worst ending ever IMO. But the timing would stay the same as if I'd cut the movie. Weird, isn't it? BTW, why so few people care about cutting this movie too late? I expected to see sorta divided court.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 5/17/2011 5:22 PM
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Brandon
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feos wrote:
BTW, why so few people care about cutting this movie too late? I expected to see sorta divided court.
Please do not get rid of the ending.
All the best, Brandon Evans
Posted: 5/17/2011 10:57 PM
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Sonikkustar
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Posted: 5/18/2011 10:43 AM
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CoolKirby
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feos wrote:
BTW, why so few people care about cutting this movie too late? I expected to see sorta divided court.
Why should the ending be cut out? It's entertaining!
Sonikkustar wrote:
NES TAS of the Year
I predict this and the NES Mario quad-run to be the two contenders.
Posted: 5/18/2011 11:37 AM
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
To please AnS :p
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 5/18/2011 11:41 AM
Quote
Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
Yes vote from me. I like the movie and regarding the input after beating the boss, i think if you still have control of the character, so you can do anything you want, and the end really begins when you have no control of the game anymore. It was good that this discussion came out cause i can see other games facing the same problems in the future, like some arcade games. Btw, i don't know much of the game so, that final time (17:49?) is the in-game time, right? Would it be different if you cut the input earlier?
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