Topic by caitsith2

Posted: 2/23/2014 1:33 PM

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caitsith2

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Player (46)

Joined: 3/26/2004
Posts: 194

Manipulation is done with controller inputs.

Posted: 2/15/2016 12:31 AM

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Masterjun

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Site Developer, Skilled player (1970)

Joined: 10/12/2010
Posts: 1179
Location: Germany

So after 2 years without activity I thought I'd pick up this game and make an optimized movie this game deserves. Unfortunately, the movie file of this run is not available anymore, but at least we still have the encode. Now the question is how the categories should be. I don't know everything about this game yet but it seems like there is only a single item (Damage Amp) that is optional, thus making a run that collects all items very similar to one that doesn't. However, there are a few options and things to consider: Getting the true ending requires collecting all 7 orrexium shards. If you continue collecting only 1 or 0 of them, you get a special Game Over screen. This could be counted as an ending but probably wouldn't. There are different difficulties: - "EASY" with 3 HP and unlimited deaths - "NORMAL", "HARD" and "VERY HARD", each with 1 HP and with unlimited, 65 or 25 deaths available (respectively) - "UNFAIR" with 1 HP and 1 death available (instant Game Over after a death) Because a death resets your progress, you can't even use it as a teleport, thus making it useless for a TAS (no death abuse). This means the obvious choice would be the UNFAIR difficulty, which the run I linked earlier chose, too. However, EASY could be a choice as well, since having 3 HP means you can go through enemies, making small time saves possible. This would possibly require heavy damage routing, since filling up your HP often means going into an extra side room to get the checkpoint. It might turn out to be not worth it to fill up your HP very often, making such a run look very similar to the UNFAIR difficulty run. This means there are basically two major decisions you have to make: - How many items do you get? 0 or 1 shards to get the special Game Over or all 7 shards for the true ending? Collect the optional item or not? - What difficulty do you choose? UNFAIR simply beacuse it's the hardest difficulty or EASY to optimize every single frame out of the run, even if it looks sloppy getting hit? help

Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)

Posted: 2/15/2016 1:56 AM

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Fortranm

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Editor, Experienced player (780)

Joined: 10/19/2013
Posts: 1115

It has been about 2 years since I played this game so I don't remember much details. What do you get at the top of the mountain if you have 2 to 6 shards? Whether the ending where the player dies with the villains should be considered as a legit ending depends on whether the game gives you a game over screen. If it doesn't, this ending probably should be considered as a suitable goal for speedrunning.

Posted: 2/15/2016 2:22 AM
(Edited: 2/15/2016 2:34 AM)

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Fortranm

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Joined: 10/19/2013
Posts: 1115

IMHO, there are three factors that decide whether a specific ending of a game is a valid goal for speedrunning. I'll use Castlevania games as examples. First, is the main goal of the protagonist(s) accomplished? Second, does the game consider it as an ending or as a game over? Third, on the perspective of speedrunning, does getting an earlier ending make the run look significantly different from one that gets the true ending? I'll use Castlevania games as examples. In OoE, if Shanoa beats Albus without saving all villagers, the player gets a game over scene. Not only the protagonist is dead, Dracula is also revived. The goal of defeating evil is not accomplished, and the result is a game over screen. This "ending "shouldn't be considered a valid goal choice. In PoR, if the protagonists beat the vampire twins, the villains escape and the castle collapse. In this case, the main purpose is accomplished since the castle is destroyed and Dracula is not even resurrected. However, the game still gives you a game over screen. Thus, this is not a valid goal choice. In SotN, if Alucard kills Richter, the castle collapse and the ending theme is played as in the true ending. It is definitely a sad ending, but the peace is kept and the game actually gives you a proper ending sequence. The game is completed in a since. Even then, the only difference between the first part of a true ending run and a bad ending run would be whether to skip the throne room with a glitch. That being said, this bad ending is not a valid goal choice of speedrunning. In DoS, killing Dario results in the normal ending. Both of the dark lord candidates are dead so the main purpose is achieved. The game plays the ending theme for you. Before the point the player fights Dario for the second time, a region is skipped, and the second Dario fight wouldn't be a part of a true ending run. If a run aims at ending the game by killing Dario without any OoB glitches, its goal choice probably should be considered as valid. The same goes for Sonic games. Most Sonic runs published on this site do not collect Chaos Emeralds and result in a bad ending for not defeating the true final boss, usually with Dr. Eggman telling the player to try again. Still, Dr. Eggman is defeated for the time being, and collecting all CEs is a big difference. Completing the game without CEs is a valid goal for sure. That being said, I actually think the bad ending of BK2 should be considered as a valid ending if it doesn't give you a game over screen.

Posted: 2/15/2016 2:28 AM

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Samsara

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Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2122)

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We don't accept runs that get early "bad ends" and whatnot, since it's not technically finishing the entire game. In general, always go for the best ending, or at the very least the one that comes after experiencing the most amount of content within the game.

TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | Cohost

warmCabin wrote:

You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.

Posted: 2/15/2016 2:42 AM

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Masterjun

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Site Developer, Skilled player (1970)

Joined: 10/12/2010
Posts: 1179
Location: Germany

Oh, I forgot an important detail: There are 3 special stages available via entering a specific password. These passwords are revealed in the final screen after beating the game (true ending). The special stages consist of new rooms which are harder than normal rooms, and a boss at the end which is changed up a bit.

Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)

Posted: 2/15/2016 2:47 AM

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£e_Nécroyeur

Skilled player (1650)

Joined: 7/1/2013
Posts: 433

"UNFAIR"

Posted: 2/17/2016 11:00 AM

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Aglar

Expert player (3578)

Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 375
Location: Varberg, Sweden

"UNFAIR + all items" or bust

feos wrote:

Only Aglar can improve this now.

Posted: 2/17/2016 2:24 PM

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xy2_

Editor, Experienced player (817)

Joined: 5/2/2015
Posts: 671
Location: France

I'm siding for "EASY" here, would be more interesting to watch in my opinion.

Youtube

Posted: 2/19/2016 11:21 PM

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caitsith2

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Joined: 3/26/2004
Posts: 194

Masterjun wrote:

So after 2 years without activity I thought I'd pick up this game and make an optimized movie this game deserves. Unfortunately, the movie file of this run is not available anymore, but at least we still have the encode.

http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/29021472297419487 - That should take care of it. I had a copy still within my fm2 movies directory.

Posted: 2/20/2016 9:26 AM

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Warepire

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Posts: 2174
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)

Unfair difficulty.

Posted: 2/21/2016 11:47 PM

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Masterjun

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Site Developer, Skilled player (1970)

Joined: 10/12/2010
Posts: 1179
Location: Germany

So apparently I don't need to visit Teleporter A at all for the TAS. Since calling it 100% makes no sense (there is no percentage counter), I thought I'd call a run with the optional items "all items". This however questions if I should even get all teleporters, as it essentially wastes time then... I'm personally tending towards not getting it.

Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)

Posted: 2/22/2016 12:04 AM

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Fortranm

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Editor, Experienced player (780)

Joined: 10/19/2013
Posts: 1115

Seconding not getting it.

Posted: 2/22/2016 6:29 AM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU

Does "getting teleporters" just mean activating them? I don't remember an item you get that way.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 5/23/2016 2:23 PM

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fcxiaopengyou

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Experienced player (546)

Joined: 7/25/2015
Posts: 123
Location: Republic of China

Hello, I made a wip in this game. (100% collect) I watched caitsith2 & nEilfox's movie, found some place can impoved. The remaining part of the randomness involved more, so I want to upload this wip. I changed the route in this wip, and compare with nEilfox's film: 1)Get "x,y" use 17 frames. 2)After get Portal B save 310 frames. 3)After get Orrexium in cave save 492 frames. 4)Details of the other parts of the optimization save 897 frames. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/download/31099461308231321

Working on: [NES] Downtown Special - Kunio-kun no Jidaigeki Dayo Zenin Shuugou! (J) ''2 players 100%'' Plan: [SNES] Kenyuu Densetsu Yaiba (Japan) _________________ Ｍｙ　Ｅｎｇｌｉｓｈ　ｉｓ　ｐｏｕｒ．　

Posted: 5/23/2016 2:37 PM

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Masterjun

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Site Developer, Skilled player (1970)

Joined: 10/12/2010
Posts: 1179
Location: Germany

Yo fcxiaopengyou, your WIP is quite good, but there are still places that can be better. For example you missed the trick with odd pixel values to go around enemies (as you can see here). As you can see, I'm also doing a run of this, though, I don't get all the Teleporters as my goal is simply "all items".

Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)

Posted: 5/23/2016 3:27 PM

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fcxiaopengyou

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Experienced player (546)

Joined: 7/25/2015
Posts: 123
Location: Republic of China

>Masterjun Your video is amazing! After watching that I want to give up… lol I found odd pixel can be quick is some place, higher place drop down and reflexive did not touch the walls can be more faster. Thank you so much for your tips, I will remake TAS of this game :)

Working on: [NES] Downtown Special - Kunio-kun no Jidaigeki Dayo Zenin Shuugou! (J) ''2 players 100%'' Plan: [SNES] Kenyuu Densetsu Yaiba (Japan) _________________ Ｍｙ　Ｅｎｇｌｉｓｈ　ｉｓ　ｐｏｕｒ．　

Posted: 5/28/2016 11:21 AM
(Edited: 5/28/2016 2:50 PM)

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fcxiaopengyou

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Experienced player (546)

Joined: 7/25/2015
Posts: 123
Location: Republic of China

Thanks for Masterjun's advice and tips. I fix last WIP 174 frames. Fortunately, this game can be spliced. And I still think open Portal A is complete, so I have no changed that~

Second WIP: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/download/31208511044895121 I also found something:

If put an "UP" in finish jump, it can drop down more faster.

Before jump put right or left, it can be slow.

Working on: [NES] Downtown Special - Kunio-kun no Jidaigeki Dayo Zenin Shuugou! (J) ''2 players 100%'' Plan: [SNES] Kenyuu Densetsu Yaiba (Japan) _________________ Ｍｙ　Ｅｎｇｌｉｓｈ　ｉｓ　ｐｏｕｒ．　

Posted: 5/28/2016 12:53 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU

Add spaces between the images please.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.