Hi, I'm doing a TAS of "shadow of the beast" who has already been TAS in US version. (11:56.9 by maTO )
But I'm doing a TAS from the japanese version who is really different.
the big difference is that the game is really slower, it has better graphics too and some elements of level designs are a little bit different (enemies distance and other things)
my actual time is 12:25:35.
The best TAS I saw from the japanese version is 13:20 by Exilant
can I submit my run as the japanese version of the game, even if the US version has already been done and has a better time?
thx for the explanation.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Better graphics isn't a good reason for a different version to be published, and if the game is 'really slower' than the US version, I'd say that would be an argument against even submitting.
However, the level design and enemy changes... if you can elaborate on those, that would be your best chance at getting some positive feedback.
for example, when you are hit in the US version, the invincible time is shorter than the JAP version.
the final boss does 1 damage in US version, 2 in JAP version
he has less life in US version
in the tree, there is a branch that fall from the ceiling to hit you.
if you try to just run, in JAP version you will be systematically hit, in US version, the branch don't appear before a little moment, so you are not hit.
1:04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q3EZyjX920
here you have to take a ball:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM5rV-DEleU
in US version, the ball go too fast that you can't hit it twice before it goes up.
in JAP version, you can hit twice the ball, so in 3 falls, you have it, instead of 6 in the US.
there are other things, but I have to look at it, and I'm busy just now.
I'll do it well I'll have some time.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Derakon wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
Better graphics isn't a good reason for a different version to be published...
Really? What about e.g. Super Castlevania IV? Or the music improvements in Castlevania 3, which could be likened to better graphics?
I don't consider some slight graphical changes to be enough to change from a US to a J ROM, especially when the gameplay is slower. Something like comparing FFIV SNES to FFIV DS would be an entirely different situation, however. But from the first post, I assumed the graphical changes weren't massive.
I think we are making it too much of a barrier for Japanese TASers to participate here. There are many active Japanese TASers, but they seem to self-publish by uploading their videos to nicovideos only, and I'm not sure that they provide the input file anywhere. To them, the English of this site is a big barrier, but even more than that, our requirement that they use an unfamiliar (and usually not the original) version of the game for submissions is a big turn-off. Right now, the only Japanese submissions TASvideos gets are those that were made with TASvideos in mind to begin with. We have rare cases where peope are actually willing to remake their TAS from scratch to be able to submit here (see Secret of Mana), but most people wouldn't be willing to go that far.
I suggest that we change the rules to say that the original version of a game is preferred, but that due to the large amount of English speakers here, the American version has an equal position. When an obsoletion would change versions of the game, a subjective judgement would have to be made whether the new version is faster when ignoring differences like text scrolling speed etc.. Requiring a subjective judgement like this is a disadvantage, but we do most of this already.
Another possiblity would be to publish the different language versions in different branches, but that would require some changes to the publication system. Right now, we have four levels: Gruefood, published, moon and star. I'm not sure the difference between the current moon and star is that useful, so I suggest that we change the meaning of moon to be like a star, but within a single game. That way you can have a huge number of categories for a single game, but you would only moon the most interesting ones. For example, for Super Metroid we would probably moon the unglitched any% and 100%, while glitched any%, unglitched low%, RBO etc. would also be published, but with less visibility. Each published game would have at least one mooned run, and the current browse games listing would be changed to show only the mooned runs prominently (i.e. with pictures and full description), with text-only links to the unmooned runs.
The point of a system like the one above is that it would allow us to keep a general movies list high quality by showing only the most interesting categories prominently, but still make available the more specialized versions that experienced players of the games appreciate. As well as allowing several language versions of a game to exist - the one currently judged the most interesting (probably the fastest one) would be mooned.
Of course, we don't have to take over the moon symbol to do this either. We could also introduce a new level (a 1-up mushroom for example) for this purpose.
There is pretty much no text in Shadow of the Beast. The Japanese version is just slower (and even more badly designed). It's not even the original version to begin with because Psygnosis was a British game developer.
Honestly, I see a lot of cases where it would be preferable to use a Japanese version of a game (and it's actually being used in many!), but this is definitely not one of them.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
There is pretty much no text in Shadow of the Beast. The Japanese version is just slower (and even more badly designed). It's not even the original version to begin with because Psygnosis was a British game developer.
Honestly, I see a lot of cases where it would be preferable to use a Japanese version of a game (and it's actually being used in many!), but this is definitely not one of them.
oh really? well why did I just do 12:24 seconds when US version is 11:57 with 16,67% of speed up?
my time should be more like 13:30 if it was a pure copy (because 1,16* 11:57 is something like that) considering that the actual US TAS is perfect or near perfect, proof that this game has real differences and should be published too.
and seriously, I looked my own run and I saw 4 ways to increase the speed.
(~1 second at the beginning, 15-20 frames for the castle, maybe 2 or 3 frames in some falls and bosses, maybe some frames by being hit only once by the eyes in underworld, using it later in the cemetery to save ~10 frames)
well, it should be something like 12:20 or less at the end.
I don't understand why you wouldn't publish my run only because a different version of a game or because the game is slower.
so the TAS 100% run are faster than the normal run? no. so why are they published? they are slower, aren't it?
I could understand if my run was bad, but we are not talking about that.
anyway, if you refuse it because of that, I'll have to submit it on youtube, because I want it to be published and appreciated by people like any other TAS, but I would prefer sincerely to publish it to TASVideos.
don't know why you are attached to make specifically US TAS runs.
people which I talked about this game generally preferred the J version. too bad, there is no TAS videos of it in TASVideos.
I think I would make a video comparison of the 2 runs. (if I have material to do that, if not, maybe someone could help me).
and for those who would ask, I'm french, not japanese 8D
well why did I just do 12:24 seconds when US version is 11:57 with 16,67% of speed up?
my time should be more like 13:30 if it was a pure copy (because 1,16* 11:57 is something like that) considering that the actual US TAS is perfect or near perfect, proof that this game has real differences and should be published too.
From Wikipedia:
The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis port is considered by some to be one of the hardest video games ever made. Particularly to North American audiences, this is due to a sloppy conversion to the North American region; the original game had a 50 Hz refresh rate, but all North American Sega Genesis games had to have a 60 Hz refresh rate in North America due to being made for NTSC televisions. The conversion team did not change the amount of time each frame remained on screen when the refresh rate was increased to 60 Hz, making it run 16.7% faster than the original (this problem is absent when the game is played on a European Mega Drive with 50 Hz refresh rate, however). Many gamers struggled to complete it after its release, but due to the incredibly high difficulty level with no continues available, very few achieved this goal until Sega revealed the invincibility cheat in January 1992. As if to make up for this, the Japanese Mega Drive version not only ran at the correct speed but had enhanced in-game graphics as well as a toned down difficulty setting though the game still lacked continues.
It's not hard to see why this version might be more popular, but the real question is: is it worth the slower gameplay and reduced difficulty?
zebdal wrote:
I don't understand why you wouldn't publish my run only because a different version of a game or because the game is slower.
...Because it's slower. There, you've answered your own question. :)
zebdal wrote:
so the TAS 100% run are faster than the normal run? no. so why are they published? they are slower, aren't it?
Because the goals are different, thus inviting fundamental differences in gameplay. Come on, I shouldn't have to explain something so simple!
zebdal wrote:
don't know why you are attached to make specifically US TAS runs.
Because they're usually the fastest versions, and at the same time they're in English, a language which is either first or second to most people here.
Look, your argument would be perfectly valid if Japanese SotB was faster, or otherwise better than the US version, but is it? If you want to TAS it, nobody stops you; if you want to submit it (also a popularity boost I guess; considering all submissions get a permanent page, a high quality encode, an RSS feed item, and a separate discussion thread), nobody stops you either, but if you fail to make a case that would justify publishing it alongside or instead of the US version, it's not gonna make it.
(Why don't you try improving the US version run, anyway?)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
blabla wikipedia
is it worth the slower gameplay and reduced difficulty?
u can't tell unless u play it.
I think it reduce difficulty a bit, but if that's the case, why people generally do runs on normal difficulty?
zebdal wrote:
I don't understand why you wouldn't publish my run only because a different version of a game or because the game is slower.
...Because it's slower. There, you've answered your own question. :)
that's not a question. and I don't understand anyway.
Because they're usually the fastest versions, and at the same time they're in English, a language which is either first or second to most people here.
so, a question, do people have time to read the text in english on a TAS speedrun?
~95% of time, you can't see it because runners skip it, so the text could be in english, in japanese, in russian or even in ET language, there will be no difference.
(Why don't you try improving the US version run, anyway?)
...Because it's the US version. There, you've answered your own question. :)
Look, your argument would be perfectly valid if Japanese SotB was faster, or otherwise better than the US version, but is it?
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
There's nothing stopping you from submitting your run and making a case for it in the submission text. Detail out what's different between the versions and why you think it should be published alongside (or replace) the current version, and go from there. See what the rest of the community thinks when they can see for themselves.
Joined: 5/13/2009
Posts: 700
Location: suffern, ny
zebdal wrote:
blabla wikipedia
is it worth the slower gameplay and reduced difficulty?
u can't tell unless u play it.
I think it reduce difficulty a bit, but if that's the case, why people generally do runs on normal difficulty?
On TASvideos, the game is played on the hardest difficulty, and No codes, unless it unlocks a hardest mode not normally available when you start the game. You use the U version unless there is a reason not to, Being that there is a glitch or something else not availible in the U version. If the J version is faster than we will use the J version. The U version in this case is the fastest.
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese
[19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
I think it reduce difficulty a bit, but if that's the case, why people generally do runs on normal difficulty?
Actually, generally they do runs on high(er) difficulty, as per the guidelines. Most of the exceptions occur when a harder difficulty makes a run much slower to no other benefit.
zebdal wrote:
so, a question, do people have time to read the text in english on a TAS speedrun?
~95% of time, you can't see it because runners skip it, so the text could be in english, in japanese, in russian or even in ET language, there will be no difference.
This argument has been beaten to death, really. Yes, in those rare cases when there is at least visible text on the screen, it matters. In some (RPGs and such) it matters a lot. Where there is no text, it doesn't matter—other things do. Such as gameplay speed, as in SotB's case. We've had slower (50 fps) versions obsolete 60 fps ones when there was a glitch only present in the slower version that cut the time enough to gain an advantage. We aren't as attached to using US versions as you think; it's just the most reasonable default option. Make a Japanese run faster than 11:56.9, and you'll most likely get it published in no time.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
well, on my second try, I have:
12:21.01
I think it will be difficult to go below 12:20, except by using glitches, but actually I don't know glitches who could win some time.
Imma going to submit it, and que sera sera.
a question before, I just submit the files created with the emulator right? (and maybe the rom too)
