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Posted: 1/14/2012 10:13 AM
Post subject: TMNT Tournament Fighters
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spolan
Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 4
Does anybody interesting in making a playaround TAS of this great game? Well, maybe first question should be that - does anybody know about this game? :D (because it is 1993) TMNT TF has really good mechanics, several bugs (immortal don http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvK-wtmOIyg, immortal casey http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LxUijCBqLY), and a lot of features. Some of them: - double KO - when time is up, death animation can be cancelled (so, maybe something interesting will happen if double KO animation will be stopped) - when time is up, there is another glitch - the player that has less hp can win - impressive don tricks - impressive raf tricks - tricks with raf animation at the end of round - mike can hit hothead from opposite side of screen, also mike can hit mike, when both of them are continuously flying (another feature) - impressive ball tricks (especially with don and leo) - some funny pictures at the end of round (for example - kiss of the hothead, mike rides the horhead, etc) In russia we have a community, where we often play champs on this game, some videos: http://video.yandex.ru/users/jo-kingly/view/11#hq http://video.yandex.ru/users/jo-kingly/view/1#hq Also, one tool-assisted round http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1529348938/tmnttfr1.fm2
Posted: 1/14/2012 2:24 PM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I'd like to see this, Tastosis, the e-sports casting archon, mention this game a lot.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 1/14/2012 5:14 PM
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ViZed
Joined: 1/14/2012
Posts: 4
Location: Russia
TAS of TMNT Tournament Fighters to look not interesting. It is cool fighting and best fighting on NES. But TAS is...
Sorry me for my bad English.
Posted: 1/14/2012 9:02 PM
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sting20031959
Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 2
TMNT TF is the best fighting on NES, and all gamers talk only about it, when the topic relates to fighting games....But. how about another fightings ? For example "Yie Ar Kung-Fu".......It's classic game I think and all should pay more attention to this game in spite of the primitive graphics and gameplay
Posted: 4/29/2012 7:07 PM
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KusogeMan
Active player (435)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1698
Location: Brasil
the submission for this game will be rejected for going for pure speed. somebody plz superplay it instead!
TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general
Posted: 4/29/2012 7:33 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11277
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
grassini wrote:
the submission for this game will be rejected for going for pure speed. somebody plz superplay it instead!
Have you, by any chance, seen that?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 4/29/2012 7:57 PM
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KusogeMan
Active player (435)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1698
Location: Brasil
even though i read the whole thread,i seem to have carefully skipped taht part of the message,thanks.
TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general
Posted: 1/7/2016 5:03 PM
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DrBaldhead
Editor
Joined: 11/17/2015
Posts: 61
RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE LITTLE THREAD! Actually it's kinda interesting idea. I've tried to tinker with the game in TASEditor, an watched some records from tournaments. I've found things I haven't even thought of. Such as this little pile of gif data. (3-4 Mb GIF ahead) I've also tried to tinker with LUA a bit and found that with some visual additions the game can demonstrate much less erratic behavior than it usually seems to. Moreover, while doing that, I've stumbled upon another interesting thing. When I accidentally opened wrong LUA Script which occured to be an example intended for TMNT 1, it worked and began to show hitboxes. I'm not sure if they are correct though, but they look quite nice. I actually want to tas it someday. Yet there's still much to learn about. The most interesting achievement to aim for is to find a way to affect the values like 0x00A2 (current P1 char 0-6) during fights and change characters between the rounds (if it's possible without LUA, of course). That would make the game suitable for a decent playaround for sure.
Totally irrelevant link My consoles: PS2 (PS1 as bw\c), NDS Lite (GBA as bw/c), 3DS XL, Wii U (vWii theoretically), PS4 slim.
Posted: 1/7/2016 6:19 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11277
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Playaround of this would be terrific, but there's only few people who know most of its possible tricks (there's a freaking ton), and none of them are really interested in tasting it. Spolan knows them, but he didn't find interest in finishing his attempts either. Probably you can try pulling a list of them from him though. Check out TMNT-TF articles from these two issues.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 1/7/2016 6:31 PM
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Lars_Hendrick
Player (64)
Joined: 10/4/2015
Posts: 102
If anyone can give me a list of known bugs and glitches (in English) I'd gladly do a TAS of this thing.
Enter the Matrix is a piece of garbage but I'm gonna finish it if it kills me.
Posted: 1/7/2016 6:43 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11277
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Very funny.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 1/7/2016 6:45 PM
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Lars_Hendrick
Player (64)
Joined: 10/4/2015
Posts: 102
feos wrote:
Very funny.
I only say that because I can't read Russian so whatever tricks are in the magazine article I'll be left helpless.
Enter the Matrix is a piece of garbage but I'm gonna finish it if it kills me.
Posted: 1/7/2016 9:37 PM
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DrBaldhead
Editor
Joined: 11/17/2015
Posts: 61
Feos wrote:
Check out TMNT-TF articles from these two issues.
What have you gave me?! Those articles! It's a... Forbidden knowledge! It made me feel.. POWER!! NINTENDO POWWEEER!!!! At the link above I've just cheated the byte at 0x0550. This one actually can change the character at any moment. This is NOT THE WAY we're going to work, of course. I mean, cheating. Although SF2 Rainbow Edition does almost the same thing and still looks cool. Anyway, thanks for the articles. Indeed, there's much to think about.
Totally irrelevant link My consoles: PS2 (PS1 as bw\c), NDS Lite (GBA as bw/c), 3DS XL, Wii U (vWii theoretically), PS4 slim.
Posted: 1/9/2016 7:21 PM
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DrBaldhead
Editor
Joined: 11/17/2015
Posts: 61
Lars_Hendrick wrote:
I only say that because I can't read Russian so whatever tricks are in the magazine article I'll be left helpless.
Well, the first article is an in-depth strategy guide which describes all the turtles (and the other characters as well) and makes clear that they are actually very different. I might translate the main thesises later. The second article is a deep reverse-engineering investigation by Feos which gets to two conclusions: - Donatello can trigger ball throw at any moment and it's a feature rather than a bug; - If Donatello throws the ball during any invulnerability period (such as his special attack), he becomes immortal until he executes a move that triggers and then turns off invulnerability (again, his special attack).
Totally irrelevant link My consoles: PS2 (PS1 as bw\c), NDS Lite (GBA as bw/c), 3DS XL, Wii U (vWii theoretically), PS4 slim.
Posted: 1/9/2016 7:28 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11277
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
I would add that the first article is a guide for real-time players, so it may include some tricks that will work in real tournaments (that occur, or used to occur using netplay), but it mostly skips tricks that will look best for a playaround, since such mostly happen randomly and unexpectedly. So it will require a talk to participants on the matter of interesting situations they saw. And also it would require watching the recordings of those tournaments. Without these tricks the playaround wouldn't showcase the real potential of the game.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 1/9/2016 7:41 PM
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DrBaldhead
Editor
Joined: 11/17/2015
Posts: 61
I would add that many community tournaments were played on Nestopia 1.35. And there was a good guy, who assembled a bunch of tournament records across several years. Here, we can find this collection. To play it you would need Nestopia 1.35. Place the .KREC files into the "records" dir within the emulator folder. Go to the "Netplay" menu and add the US version of TMNT: TF. Launch it. Then switch the mode to "Playback" and watch. Nevermind the "wrong emulator" message. Enjoy the turtles who: - Somehow attack and block at the same time; - Pick up the ball in the air (any character can do that, except Hothead); - Mixups, mixups, and then again, mixups; - Many other tricks that are not that easy to notice. For example, TASEDitor showed me that a turtle can recover after a jump much faster if there was an attempt to perform an air punch (several frames, but enough to escape a throw). Even faster than a jump without an attack. P.S.: actually, this game was the only one featuring the Hothead character ever.
Totally irrelevant link My consoles: PS2 (PS1 as bw\c), NDS Lite (GBA as bw/c), 3DS XL, Wii U (vWii theoretically), PS4 slim.
Posted: 6/2/2016 1:44 PM
(Edited: 6/3/2016 10:32 AM)
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DrBaldhead
Editor
Joined: 11/17/2015
Posts: 61
I still pay some attention to this game from time to time. Since it's pretty simple, there's little room to find bugs. Aside those unvulnerability flag exploits (Don can get immortal via almost any move), there's not much to find right now. Yet, time will tell. Some interesting facts are still being found. You propably wouldn't notice that:
  • When you leave the title screen untouched, the demo fight that starts is not just a battle between two AIs. Actually, the CPU player assumes the identity of Player 1 and starts playing story mode with a random character starting from a random enemy from Leo. If you freeze the demo (16bit and not only for demo) timer at $009С it might even complete the game by itself. If not the bonus game, where it just doesn't know what to do and hands the control to the player. When the bonus game ends, AI seizes the control again. Pressing start at any moment would still bring you back to the title menu.
  • During the bonus game, HP of each wall is determined depending on the player character. Here's a table:
    • Leo - 144
    • Raph - 104
    • Mike - 200
    • Don - 176
    • Casey - 71
    • HotHead - 72
    • Shredder - 3
    Considering that against walls using normal attacks is generally more effective than wait for the special to charge, Raphael would have the easiest time breaking through. And yes, Shredder would destroy any wall with a single hit. At any moment there's only one wall to be present as a fighter, who's actually Player 2. Its HP are set at the moment the previous wall is killed and retrieved at $BFCE+P1Char.
Playing with character choice variables is actually quite fun. There are two of them, one for the character you've chosen at the menu, and another one to determine who's actually fighting. The first one determines the character you progress with through the story mode and start fights, the second one - again, who's actually fighting. Changing the second variable would morph you instantly, though some data would require some time to change. So, I wrote a simple LUA script that adds "randper kombat" into the game :) Each five seconds both fighters will try to morph into another character. Makes the game much more challenging :) Or less challenging, if you're lucky. http://pastebin.com/kkSUgmWc
Totally irrelevant link My consoles: PS2 (PS1 as bw\c), NDS Lite (GBA as bw/c), 3DS XL, Wii U (vWii theoretically), PS4 slim.
Posted: 6/3/2016 4:15 AM
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KusogeMan
Active player (435)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1698
Location: Brasil
this game is a blast,but i never played it well,good luck on the project
TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general
Posted: 6/3/2016 7:50 AM
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Dimon12321
He/Him
Active player (480)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1129
Location: Ukraine
DrBaldhead wrote:
You propably wouldn't notice that:
  • When you leave the title screen untouched, the demo fight that starts is not just a battle between two AIs. Actually, the CPU player assumes the identity of Player 1 and starts playing story mode with a random character starting from a random enemy. If you freeze the demo (16bit and not only for demo) timer at $009С it might even complete the game by itself. If not the bonus game, where it just doesn't know what to do and hands the control to the player. When the bonus game ends, AI seizes the control again. Pressing start at any moment would still bring you back to the title menu.
It would be a good idea for the vault tier if we could increase the skill of Player 1 CPU and find a legal way to freeze the timer.
DrBaldhead wrote:
[*]During the bonus game, HP of each wall is determined depending on the player character.
I didn't notice that =) I know that each supermove inflicts different amount of damage, so it requires different time for each turtle to destoy all the walls.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 6/3/2016 9:00 AM
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DrBaldhead
Editor
Joined: 11/17/2015
Posts: 61
I wasn't accurate and have to correct myself. The demo fight always starts using Leo as the opponent and then continues through the story.
Totally irrelevant link My consoles: PS2 (PS1 as bw\c), NDS Lite (GBA as bw/c), 3DS XL, Wii U (vWii theoretically), PS4 slim.
Posted: 6/3/2016 10:40 PM
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DrBaldhead
Editor
Joined: 11/17/2015
Posts: 61
As it was mentioned in some materials linked above at the topic, the game stores the data about the keys (buttons) pressed by the players at the following locations: Player 1 keys (tapped): $008E Player 1 keys (holding): $0091 Player 2 keys (tapped): $008F Player 2 keys (holding): $0092 Each variable is a collection of 8 binary flags, each representing a key on the controller. This data is used by the game to determine what a character should attempt to do next. When the CPU Player is participating in the fight, he uses the same addresses to issue commands to his character. In other words, he "presses" the keys as he would do as a real being. At least theoretically. When the CPU Player presses a key, the variable with flags seems to be rewritten for the rest of the frame, so it is practically impossible to hi-jack the control from him. At least right now. Yet, there can be moments when the human can make his keys heard, but only when the CPU Player is not pressing anything, which in most cases happens when the character can't move anyway (e.g. during a pause) or it doesn't know what to do (at the bonus game). Right now it is unknown would the game even care to handle such input while the CPU Player fights (or at least bothers to do that). If the game is paused the CPU player seems to stop pressing any buttons yet when the fight continues he resumes his actions immediately, so hitting PAUSE button would not force him to stop running or doing other actions requiring to hold a button (pause also freezes special charge timers). Since the CPU Player obviously doesn't use a controller, his input does not appear in the input registers and emulator can't display it by itself. So I wrote a simplistic LUA script that displays the input actually registered by the game, including that from the AI. Running it might show how the CPU player actually handles the character and when the input from the human player gets through. http://pastebin.com/RvuszZcx P.S.: right now the script doesn't really differentiate tapping keys and holding them (since the holding flags are arisen at the same time as the tapping ones and descent when the keys are released), yet I might implement that later.
Totally irrelevant link My consoles: PS2 (PS1 as bw\c), NDS Lite (GBA as bw/c), 3DS XL, Wii U (vWii theoretically), PS4 slim.
Posted: 6/6/2016 9:02 AM
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Dimon12321
He/Him
Active player (480)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1129
Location: Ukraine
So, what's the plan of making playaround? It'd be great to collect all known tricks and glitches in a single video with comments of how to do that. The second player can interrupt the story mode walkthough in any time by pressing start, but if we select "End" after the fight between P1 and P2, P1 always continues the story despite the fact that P2 can win the fight. Anyway, I think the playaround should be similar to Mortal Kombat playarounds (2-3 fights in story mode, 1-2 fights between players) depending on how many tricks are discovered and how entertaining it will be.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 6/6/2016 9:09 AM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11277
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
All tricks are known among people who play it online, someone just needs to document them.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 8/22/2016 12:12 PM
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Dimon12321
He/Him
Active player (480)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1129
Location: Ukraine
______________________Damage List________________________ (Work-in-Progress) This is a damage list that shows how actions of different characters influence health of different characters. Tests done in FCEUX 2.2.2, in "VS PLAYER" mode. RAM address used: 0591. This address shows the health of the 2nd player. 176 is a full lifebar, 0 is an empty lifebar (character dies when the value goes below 0). Action - damage to Leo, Raph, Mike, Don, Casey, Hot, Shred Leonardo: Punch - 16, 16, 20, 15, 22, 11, 14 Punch (close) - 8, 8, 10, 7, 11, 5, 7 Ducking Punch - 6, 6, 8, 6, 9, 4, 5 Tackle (ducking kick) - 6, 6, 8, 6, 9, 4, 5 Kick - 20, 20, 24, 18, 27, 14, 17 Kick (close) - 11, 11, 14, 10, 16, 8, 10 Throw - 37, 37, 44, 33, 50, 26, 32 Roundhouse kick (special - down, back+A) - 28, 20, 24, 18, 27, 14, 17 Shoulder hit (forward, forward+B) - 16, 16, 20, 15, 22, 11, 14 Foot hit (forward, forward+A) - 20, 20, 24, 18, 27, 14, 17 Air kick - 20, 20, 24, 18, 27, 14, 17 Air punch - 16, 16, 20, 15, 22, 11, 14 Fireball hit - 40, 40, 48, 36, 54, 28, 34 Raphael: Punch - 17, 17, 21, 16, 24, 12, 15 Punch (close) - 9, 9, 11, 8, 12, 6, 8 Ducking Punch - 7, 7, 9, 6, 10, 5, 6 Ducking Kick - 10, 10, 13, 9, 14, 7, 9 Kick - 24, 24, 29, 22, 33, 17, 21 Kick (close) - 12, 12, 15, 11, 17, 8, 10 "Devouring" (throw substitute)* - 26-56, 26-56, 36-78, 26-56, 41-89, 20-44, 25-55 Drill attack (special - back, forward+B) - 30, 30, 36, 27, 41, 21, 26 Shoulder hit (forward, forward+B) - 17, 17, 21, 16, 24, 12, 15 Foot hit (forward,forward+A) - 21, 21, 25, 19, 28, 14, 18 Air kick - 21, 21, 25, 19, 28, 14, 18 Air punch - 17, 17, 21, 16, 24, 12, 15 Fireball hit - 40, 40, 48, 36, 54, 28, 34 * - attacked player can minimise damage by quickly pressing A and B during the "devouring". Max damage is when he doesn't press buttons at all. Min damage is when he presses buttons at maximum speed. Michaelangelo: Punch - 16, 16, 20, 15, 22, 11, 14 Punch (close) - 8, 8, 10, 7, 11, 5, 7 Ducking Punch - 6, 6, 8, 6, 9, 4, 5 Ducking Kick - 10, 10, 12, 9, 13, 7, 8 Kick - 20, 20, 24, 18, 27, 14, 17 Kick (close) - 11, 11, 14, 10, 16, 8, 10 Throw - 37, 37, 44, 33, 50, 26, 32 Low rocket (special - hold down+back for 31 frames or more, forward+A) - 40, 40, 48, 36, 54, 28, 34 High rocket (special - hold down+back for 31 frames or more, forward+B) - 40, 40, 48, 36, 54, 28, 34 Shoulder hit (forward, forward+B) - 16, 16, 20, 15, 22, 11, 14 Foot hit (forward, forward+A) - 20, 20, 24, 18, 27, 14, 17 Air kick - 20, 20, 24, 18, 27, 14, 17 Air punch - 16, 16, 20, 15, 22, 11, 14 Fireball hit - 40, 40, 48, 36, 54, 28, 34 Donatello: Punch - 15, 15, 18, 13, 20, 10, 13 Punch (close) - 6, 6, 8, 6, 9, 4, 5 Ducking Punch - 5, 5, 6, 4, 6, 3, 4 Ducking Kick - 8, 8, 10, 7, 11, 5, 7 Roundhouse Kick - 21, 21, 26, 19, 29, 15, 18 Kick (close) - 10, 10, 12, 9, 13, 7, 8 Throw - 37, 37, 44, 33, 50, 26, 32 Chain (special, down,up+A) - 26, 26, 32, 24, 36, 18, 23 Shoulder hit (forward, forward+B) - 15, 15, 18, 13, 20, 10, 13 Foot hit (forward, forward+A) - 18, 18, 22, 16, 25, 13, 16 Air kick - 18, 18, 22, 16, 25, 13, 16 Air punch - 15, 15, 18, 13, 20, 10, 13 Fireball hit - 40, 40, 48, 36, 54, 28, 34 Casey's, Hothead's and Shredder's damages will be added soon (maybe). Also, there are no damages from actions that work only when the enemy is in the air: Uppercut and High Kick. Maybe add them later. Thanks for watching!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 8/29/2016 5:53 AM
(Edited: 8/31/2016 7:15 PM)
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DrBaldhead
Editor
Joined: 11/17/2015
Posts: 61
Dunno if it would be useful, yet I think I'll post my watches list. There's still plenty of things to be found though. User movie #33325253264843375 Additional info: 1. The "facing flags" have only visual effect. 2. The "Fighting condition" variable determines whether the character is alive, dead or frozen at the round start. 3. The "character" variables represent current character fighting. You can use it to change fighters during the battle, but without freezing it'll revert back at the start of the next round. 4. "Special" charges determine whether the character can or can't perform a special. The charge is accumulated by holding certain direction button and has a set max value for each character. When the charge is maxed, the player get's a bit of time to perform the special. Some additional notes on that: - All the characters have to charge. Yet Shredder, Leo and Hothead have very low charge values so they get their moves working almost immediately. - You can start accumulating the charge at almost any state, except the pause and few other conditions. - Raph has the option to start his special way before his charge is maxed. The value of charge accumulated will determine how far his attack will travel. - When the direction button is released, the charge isn't lost immediately, yet goes down rapidly. But it still enables Raph to max out his charge, perform some other moves and then activate the special. This may lead to some impressive cancels, considering it's possible to accumulate charge while performing the special. - It seems impossible to perform a special while ducking. So if the character gets charge by holding the "down" button, he has to wait several frames to get up before performing the move. This often leads new players to fail at specials. It should be noted that all characters are forced to duck before and after jumping (although jump punch seems to be an exception). - The pause button freezes the charge values. It doesn't seem to affect the way special are performed. The AI stops any activity during the pause, yet it seems to be impossible to affect his charge accumulation process. 5. The values at 0x0570 seem to be reflecting the current state of the character somehow, yet their logic is unknown to me. 6. The "Event Timer" at the end of the list is used to implement the time limit for such things as logo screen, demo mode and some other things. Freeze it during the demo and watch how AI actually tries to play story mode.
Totally irrelevant link My consoles: PS2 (PS1 as bw\c), NDS Lite (GBA as bw/c), 3DS XL, Wii U (vWii theoretically), PS4 slim.
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