Here is a speedrun with new and unique goals. It shows many parts of each level not visible in any other type of run. We practically see everything in the game.
For those not familiar with PERFECT BONUS, here’s a brief explanation.
PERFECT BONUS: This level bonus is obtained by collecting all free-floating rings in a level, so ring TVs aren’t necessary. Losing rings by taking damage doesn’t matter. The bonus is worth 50,000 points, which is useful for high scores, but it takes a lot of time.
Goals:
Priority: Collect all the rings as fast as possible.
Don’t take any TV monitor worth 10 rings.
No deaths.
Don’t take damage or lose rings.
Show PERFECT BONUS! On each level’s score tally screen.
1 Player controls 2 Characters.
Time table:
Zone
Time
Rings Collected
Emerald Hill Zone 1
1:11::59
225
Emerald Hill Zone 2
1:29::42
226
Chemical Plant Zone 1
1:49::51
195
Chemical Plant Zone 2
2:09::24
152
Aquatic Ruin Zone 1
1:06::12
176
Aquatic Ruin Zone 2
2:01::25
217
Casino Night Zone 1
2:11::53
232
Casino Night Zone 2
Skipped
---
Hill Top Zone 1
1:07::55
146
Hill Top Zone 2
3:04::34
199
Mystic Cave Zone 1
1:16::56
183
Mystic Cave Zone 2
Skipped
---
Oil Ocean Zone 1
2:02::19
207
Oil Ocean Zone 2
Skipped
---
Metropolis Zone 1
1:41::47
218
Metropolis Zone 2
Skipped
---
Metropolis Zone 3
2:25::08
153
Sky Chase Zone
2:05::58
67
Wing Fortress Zone
2:17::05
196
Death Egg Zone
0:41::13
0
Total
28:43::35
2795
Author comments:
Start
At the beginning, I used the level-select code because there are areas where unreachable (inside solid objects, too high, etc.) rings made PERFECT BONUS impossible. I used both controllers to speed up the song selection: 19, 65, 9, 17.
Emerald Hill Zone 1
In the early levels, Tails was a big help getting rings in nearby alternate routes to avoid backtracking.
Emerald Hill Zone 2
Here the situation is similar to the previous level and we had to sacrifice tails so Sonic could power through the level. Especially when 2 nearby routes with rings diverged.
Chemical Plant Zone 1
These zones were more complex due to the various possible paths. I had a good chance to improve this zone's route with practice. Tails does again a good job with the rings left in the zone.
Chemical Plant Zone 2
There was an unfortunate desync here when I edited the movie to have the level select code. While redoing the level, even though I found some improvements, the final time was around 3 seconds slower.
Aquatic Ruin Zone 1
The hard parts here were the underwater segments, because of slower movements, so I had to really take advantage of the spindash’s acceleration. I was also able to improve some things during the do-over, like the final jump which propelled me to the end quicker.
Aquatic Ruin Zone 2
Here was the first area with an unreachable ring. It’s in the second-to-last column underwater. However, we overcame that by abusing sprite collisions with Tails off-screen, and achieved our goal successfully.
Casino Night Zone 1
This zone’s design was a tough opponent. Something strange happens here: the music tempo speeds up when I collect 2 lives while I still have the speed-shoes on. I found a quick jump in the narrow passages that saved 1.4 seconds in each one.
Casino Night Zone 2
Level skipped. My only choice was to skip due to a group of rings that are way out of reach. Apologies for not playing.
Hill Top Zone 1
This zone was very simple: it only has 1 route which is easy to run through, and it has very few rings.
Hill Top Zone 2
This was a tough one, and thanks go to FuzZerd for finding a video demonstrating a strategy for backtracking so we can take both (normally exclusive) routes. Here, Tails plays an important role, since without him, PERFECT BONUS is impossible. Near the end of the lower path, I need to jump off the elevator early for sonic to bounce high enough on the extra life TV monitor to start backtracking. The height required means we would miss 3 rings, but Tails can take care of that. To go through the locked gates, Sonic must spindash in a precise location so he passes under it while it closes. Tails can also keep them open.
Mystic Cave Zone 1
Tails collects out-of-the-way rings, sometimes sacrificing himself. Tails was a big help and I would like to give special thanks to him for his work in this zone.
Mystic Cave Zone 2
Level skipped. There are out-of-the-way rings that only Knuckles can collect. Apologies for not playing this level.
Oil Ocean Zone 1
There were groups of rings that, when collected by both characters, saved time. Also, the ability to go under the oil helped with backtracking and advancing where necessary.
Oil Ocean Zone 2
Level skipped. It’s a shame to skip this level since we found some pretty good glitches to help with the unreachable rings.
First, SkyChase found a glitch that causes antigravity and gives Super Sonic physics. It’s like a double glitch.
Second, marzojr found how to get 2 of the 6 groups of unreachable rings (each group is 3 rings). The first and the last.
We couldn’t figure out how to get to the other 4 groups, and for that reason, we had no choice but to skip this level.
Metropolis Zone 1
Since this is a zone that "loops" we can use a glitch that lets use go through some obstacles and terrain. The route-planning involved consideration of this fact so we could backtrack through points of no return.
Metropolis Zone 2
Level skipped. Also because of unreachable rings. Apologies for not playing this level.
Metropolis Zone 3
Route-planning here was a little more complex. I found a way to go through closed doors similar to the method used in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but here we need to do 3 quick spindashes with a single rev instead of 6. The screen moves back enough during the first 2 spindashes that the 3rd allows us to clip through, albeit with low speed. However, this is still much faster than waiting for the door to open normally.
Also on the last three spinning gears, we pause to waste 1 frame because there’s an frame-rule that doesn’t allow the jump to make it otherwise (the pause avoids this), so that’s why you hear a strange sound. And a little later we use the same trick as in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 Any%.
And finally, the boss fight is a little slower than usual because we don’t want Sonic to take damage. The only way to break through the egg barrier that spins around Eggman is with damaged and invincible Tails.
Sky Chase Zone
These last 3 zones don’t show PERFECT BONUS when finished, but the goal is still met. Here, the only things to are get rings and destroy enemies. Initially I didn’t know there were rings hidden behind some clouds, but that problem was easily fixed.
Wing Fortress Zone
Eggman’s great flying fortress’ route was quite simple and didn’t require much planning. Just run through the fortress and pick up the rings you pass. I stop at the motors in the ship in order to advance when the path opens. Then, keep advancing in the normal route.
Death Egg Zone
Finally, the last zone. Here, the battle with Metal Sonic was easy. The hard thing to do was hitting the final boss the first 3 times. Afterwards, keep attacking with the same pattern and run away with a spindash at max speed.
Special Thanks
Thanks to marzojr for his file sonic_hud.lua and to all involved in the development of this LUA file and for finding this helpful RAM value.
Memory Address
Description
word @ FFFF40 (unsigned)
Shows the rings left to collect in a level for a PERFECT BONUS
Thanks to FuzZerd for finding the helpful Hill Top Zone 2 PERFECT BONUS strategy video. If not for that video, the level would have been skipped.
Thanks to this team: bkDJ, marzojr, FuzZerd, DDRKhat, skychase and boct1584. They supported me and motivated me to finish this project.
Thanks to bkDJ (mainly) and Hepburn (a little) for translating this submission.
Also thanks to Tails, for speeding things up on many occasions.
Suggested Screenshot
I leave it to you to choose a good image.
Nach: While this run is pretty good for what it tries to do, it has a number of flaws. It uses a cheat code. It arbitrarily avoids some items and wastes time. It doesn't complete the whole game.
TASs are supposed to look practically perfect. When many people actually notice a flaw in the play, the perfect image is shattered, those sections need to be redone.
A TAS which aims to collect all rings should go through the game and beat it collecting all rings. The other objectives don't really work in this game.
Maybe you can just redo the sections/levels which need work, and copy+paste the input into a full run. I hope you don't get discouraged, this was a very good first time run other than the aforementioned problems. But in any case, I have no choice but to reject this. I hope you will submit a better run which fixes the issues with this one in the future.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Gonna withhold my vote due to some viewers noticing the imprecision; something that I noticed every now and then as well (not in the case where Sonic would stop moving for a bit to wait for Tails, since I'm assuming you can't collect rings when they're off screen and you have to wait for Tails to proceed). However, I was quite entertained, felt like I was watching a very fast paced pinball game.
I haven't played this game, so I liked how much of the game this run showed. I found this entertaining, and I don't mind the skipped levels (since they won't help you with the goal of "PERFECT BONUS". Voting Yes!
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
DootBeep wrote:
Do we honestly hold people back because they don't score a 100% on their first test? This is a long TAS. It required a lot of planning. Clearly, much effort went into it and the decisions therein.
So because of a few frame imperfections, it is worth rejecting? Honestly.
Hi, you bring up some good points. However, there's a difference between some minor imperfections and very noticeable flaws with a run. The runs here are supposed to look superhuman, if they don't it's grounds for rejection.
Of course this can be a bit subjective.
DootBeep wrote:
The argument over completing levels is just as stupid. this is a run with a set goal. Those levels do not contribute to the goal, therefore they are not played. Do we reject a single-race run of F-ZERO because it doesn't play other races?
Actually, F-Zero was accepted long ago, but under current rules, we would reject such a run.
DootBeep wrote:
I feel it is time to remind everybody here that we have a concept demo section. This is an interesting concept. It should be put there if it's really such an affront to everyone for not being 1000% perfect.
That's really a place to move published runs that no longer match our rules, or that do something really interesting which isn't how a game is normally looked at. Not for sloppyish runs of a branch that would be mainstream.
DootBeep wrote:
Personally I enjoyed the run and will be voting yes. But that doesn't matter because within the next few hours my post will be deleted, anyway.
Sorry about that.
DootBeep wrote:
On a side note: Is it not rather hypocritical that many of the judges and even players here have submitted movies with known improvements, and had them approved, only to now declare how this run must be rejected because it has a few flaws? Par for the course, I guess.
Please see my first comment, there's a fine line regarding which kind of flaws make for accepting or rejecting.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
This one gets a no from me. The goal isn't a bad thing, but I just think it's obscure enough that fewer people will try to improve on this. I'm not sure exactly why, but my spidey senses are telling me there are imperfections present both in route-planning and executing in the TAS.
I really enjoyed the submission but it doesn't strike me as good enough for publishing.
This one gets a no from me. The goal isn't a bad thing, but I just think it's obscure enough that fewer people will try to improve on this. I'm not sure exactly why, but my spidey senses are telling me there are imperfections present both in route-planning and executing in the TAS.
I really enjoyed the submission but it doesn't strike me as good enough for publishing.
"This submission is good, but we should reject it because I don't think people will improve on it."
I don't even.
"This submission is good, but we should reject it because I don't think people will improve on it."
I don't even.
Reject it? Do not believe those words, just because it has small imperfections will be rejected?, in addition to being entertaining? Even I read that the movie TAS, published are not perfect. What they have been thinking the people who voted NO?
Honestly, the goal choice here seems perfect. "Max rings" brings up a whole slew of problems due to renewable sources of rings in zones like Casino Night. And skipping acts is a perfectly okay choice to make, given how those four acts are not going to help fulfill his goal at all. It also helps keep the run's entertainment value high, constantly tearing open act after act left and right without taking even the tiniest of breaks. (Unless you call the boss battles and tally screens 'breaks'. =p)
And with regards to the occasional imperfections? I could barely notice anything whatsoever. There may be a few things here and there, but to the untrained eye that isn't going through everything with a fine toothed comb, this does indeed look superhuman. Adventuring through every act for every little gold collectible at breakneck speeds isn't something you see often, if at all.
TASes like this should be judged on entertainment value first and foremost. And, to be honest? I personally think this is one of the most entertaining TASes submitted to this site recently. I've re-watched it at least four times at this point, and I love every second of it. <3
You know, I was just going to ignore this topic upon seeing it rejected, but after seeing Nach's comments and reading them a bunch of times, I can't help but call him out on stuff.
Nach wrote:
It uses a cheat code. It arbitrarily avoids some items and wastes time. It doesn't complete the whole game.
And yet the Zanac TAS, published all of four days ago, can get away with things like this just fine? Not that I'm saying you guys should go back and magically unpublish every Zanac TAS, save the first one (I realize this is impossible anyway); I'm more or less pointing out how you guys published a TAS that does nearly the exact same thing while shooting this one down. Where's the sense here?
Nach wrote:
TASs are supposed to look practically perfect. When many people actually notice a flaw in the play, the perfect image is shattered, those sections need to be redone.
Okay, I can understand "superhuman". But "practically perfect", now? When did you guys switch to requiring near perfection for every little thing? That's an absurdly high barrier for a newcomer to overcome, and it honestly makes me wonder why you have "technical" ratings for published movies, in that case.
(Also, if TASes are supposed to be 'practically perfect', why are any playarounds ever accepted, then?)
Nach wrote:
A TAS which aims to collect all rings should go through the game and beat it collecting all rings. The other objectives don't really work in this game.
I'm just going to assume you missed all the times this was pointed out in this topic, but a max rings goal will not work. You have to draw some kind of arbitrary line when it comes to renewable ring sources. Do you spam slots for nine minutes and murder the TAS's entertainment value? Do you stop once the ring counter starts displaying gibberish instead of numbers? Do you completely ignore them? (That isn't really "max rings" then, is it?)
Aiming for a bonus like this TAS does is a much, much better idea, as you no longer have to worry about what to do in acts like Casino Night, or in cases where monitors respawn (there's at least one, I think?).
On a finishing note... given how rarely comments and votes seem to come into play (and how often they are ignored), I have to question why they even exist.
I'm just going to assume you missed all the times this was pointed out in this topic, but a max rings goal will not work. You have to draw some kind of arbitrary line when it comes to renewable ring sources. Do you spam slots for nine minutes and murder the TAS's entertainment value? Do you stop once the ring counter starts displaying gibberish instead of numbers? Do you completely ignore them? (That isn't really "max rings" then, is it?)
Getting all of the floating rings seems like the obvious solution to me. Not sure why anything else would even be considered.
There's also a difference between looking almost perfect and actually being almost perfect.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
STJrInuyasha wrote:
Nach wrote:
It uses a cheat code. It arbitrarily avoids some items and wastes time. It doesn't complete the whole game.
And yet the Zanac TAS, published all of four days ago, can get away with things like this just fine? Not that I'm saying you guys should go back and magically unpublish every Zanac TAS, save the first one (I realize this is impossible anyway); I'm more or less pointing out how you guys published a TAS that does nearly the exact same thing while shooting this one down. Where's the sense here?
I wasn't the one who judged Zanac, take it up with whoever did.
STJrInuyasha wrote:
Nach wrote:
TASs are supposed to look practically perfect. When many people actually notice a flaw in the play, the perfect image is shattered, those sections need to be redone.
Okay, I can understand "superhuman". But "practically perfect", now? When did you guys switch to requiring near perfection for every little thing?
You missed the fine detail here. It doesn't require near perfection. In fact it could be pretty bad, as long as no one catches you on it, and thinks it's awesome. When lots of people in a thread are complaining about a mistake, it's clear some things are sloppy.
STJrInuyasha wrote:
That's an absurdly high barrier for a newcomer to overcome, and it honestly makes me wonder why you have "technical" ratings for published movies, in that case.
Technical rating is not about how perfect a movie is. It's about how well the movie makes use of TAS features. How perfect the movie is is but a small part of that. Due to the nature of some games, a high technical rating is impossible, even if every single frame is perfect. Please read the rating guidelines.
STJrInuyasha wrote:
(Also, if TASes are supposed to be 'practically perfect', why are any playarounds ever accepted, then?)
If people call out a playaround for looking really bad and not entertaining, they're rejected. Go look at the list of rejected playarounds.
STJrInuyasha wrote:
Nach wrote:
A TAS which aims to collect all rings should go through the game and beat it collecting all rings. The other objectives don't really work in this game.
I'm just going to assume you missed all the times this was pointed out in this topic, but a max rings goal will not work. You have to draw some kind of arbitrary line when it comes to renewable ring sources. Do you spam slots for nine minutes and murder the TAS's entertainment value? Do you stop once the ring counter starts displaying gibberish instead of numbers? Do you completely ignore them? (That isn't really "max rings" then, is it?)
Use some sane definition.
STJrInuyasha wrote:
On a finishing note... given how rarely comments and votes seem to come into play (and how often they are ignored), I have to question why they even exist.
If I ignored the comments, I would have accepted this. Since I did not ignore the comments, and noticed how many people did not like the goal, and how many people actually noticed sloppy play, I rejected it.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I wasn't the one who judged Zanac, take it up with whoever did.
Fully aware of this, that's why I said "you guys" and not "you". =p
A bit of consistency between judges would be nice when it comes to things like this. It seems especially odd to see a movie rejected with one of the first reasons given being "uses a level select", despite a movie doing something eerily similar being published just days before.
Nach wrote:
If I ignored the comments, I would have accepted this. Since I did not ignore the comments, and noticed how many people did not like the goal, and how many people actually noticed sloppy play, I rejected it.
Well, how many is "too many", in your case? Personally, I didn't notice enough of people complaining about them for it to matter; and the movie still ended up with a 70%+ approval rating nevertheless.
(Also, random note: 4 posts to "Newbie" status, apparently.)
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
STJrInuyasha wrote:
Nach wrote:
If I ignored the comments, I would have accepted this. Since I did not ignore the comments, and noticed how many people did not like the goal, and how many people actually noticed sloppy play, I rejected it.
Well, how many is "too many", in your case? Personally, I didn't notice enough of people complaining about them for it to matter; and the movie still ended up with a 70%+ approval rating nevertheless.
Depends on the kinds of issues involved, how noticeable is it really, what % of people are noticing. Can it be seen with the plain eye or needs intimate knowledge of the game? What I saw here was too many.
If we were to go by votes alone, why bother with comments? Votes help, but they're only a small part of what a judge looks at.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Well, how many is "too many", in your case? Personally, I didn't notice enough of people complaining about them for it to matter; and the movie still ended up with a 70%+ approval rating nevertheless.
70%+?
I see 63% Yes votes. That is pretty bad. And before you say "Anything better than 50% should be published!" Every actual 'serious' submission gets > 60% Yes votes. Thus, we'd have to accept everything. Also, someone on IRC once put it into an equation, and found that there was a strong prediction value centered around 66%, iirc. In that case, I'd say the voting system is working quite nicely.
But, don't let that stop you from whining about it on your circlejerk forum.
Oh, and Zanac was accepted with a passcode an entire 3 years before adelikat became an admin. But, please, don't let the truth interfere with your whine session.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
