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Posted: 6/30/2017 5:01 PM
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KnucklesMaster368
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Joined: 5/1/2015
Posts: 96
Location: Florida
Just a quick question:
dhxo wrote:
Does pressing l+r really speed you up underwater? At how many subpixels per frame do you travel?
This came from the VS. Super Mario Bros. thread, which is currently being optimized with a target submission date of 9/1/17 (at least that's my target) I know it definitely does, but how much faster does Mario go?
If a map had all the information, it would look like this: (shows black construction paper) "Now that's a map!' XD
Posted: 7/1/2017 1:33 AM
Post subject: What do you think the best time possible is for SMB (warped)
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KawaiiChurchill
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Joined: 6/22/2017
Posts: 3
Do you think that HappyLee's TAS is as good as it'll get? Or nah?
StayTrueMan
Posted: 7/1/2017 2:09 AM
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KnucklesMaster368
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Joined: 5/1/2015
Posts: 96
Location: Florida
I think it'll take a while, but we could do a flagpole glitch with the koopa at the end of 8-2. That'd save a framerule. So, 4:56.96 or around there is the limit, but that's just my thought.
If a map had all the information, it would look like this: (shows black construction paper) "Now that's a map!' XD
Posted: 7/1/2017 5:07 AM
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HappyLee
Expert player (2453)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
NES TASer of 2012
It should be impossible to improve time-wise until someone discovers a new glitch that I haven't known.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Posted: 7/1/2017 6:40 AM
Post subject: Re: What do you think the best time possible is for SMB (warped)
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
KawaiiChurchill wrote:
Do you think that HappyLee's TAS is as good as it'll get? Or nah?
When did it become a matter of opinion?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 7/1/2017 6:59 AM
Post subject: Re: What do you think the best time possible is for SMB (warped)
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KawaiiChurchill
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Joined: 6/22/2017
Posts: 3
feos wrote:
When did it become a matter of opinion?
Just asking if the current record will be a good as it can get brah.
StayTrueMan
Posted: 7/5/2017 9:56 PM
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KnucklesMaster368
He/Him
Joined: 5/1/2015
Posts: 96
Location: Florida
dhxo and I are working on a TAS for VS Super Mario Bros. I'm going for all FPG's (except for 1-1, because of 3 fireworks [timer runs quicker]), and I've been told that it's the x-subpixel that needs to be manipulated for FPG(Flag Pole Glitch). If it's always the same x-subpixel, what x-sub will always give FPG's?
If a map had all the information, it would look like this: (shows black construction paper) "Now that's a map!' XD
Posted: 7/6/2017 4:12 PM
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Wulf2k
Joined: 10/18/2011
Posts: 64
Shouldn't that be rather easy to test by getting the savestate of a working glitch setup, then memory editing the value to see when it stops working?
Posted: 7/6/2017 4:57 PM
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dhxo
He/Him
Joined: 11/21/2016
Posts: 62
Location: Germany
Well, just use a published movie, then look for the value of the subpixel when the fpg occurs by using RAM-Watch.
You are reading this.
Posted: 9/3/2017 12:22 AM
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Alyosha
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Editor, Expert player (3532)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2730
Location: US
GBA TASer of 2023 Homebrew TAS of 2023 Gameboy TASer of 2022 NES TASer of 2015
I still want to know which is faster in game time, PAL or NTSC version. So I started doing my own analysis. The first thing I checked was about how much time could be saved in 8-2 in both versions. NTSC: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/41479089906232102 PAL: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/41479114334607148 I'm not HappyLee, but I managed to save 112 frames in the NTSC version and 17 in PAL. Or 1.86s in NTSC and 0.34 PAL. Surprisingly that spring doesn't add up to much (or maybe I'm just bad.) I don't know where Nach's original estimate of 2.37 for NTSC comes from, so if I'm missing something someone please fill me in. Overall so far that adds up 1.54 seconds gained in NTSC. I'm in the process of making a table for the other level times and will edit this post when I'm done. EDIT: Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/149PjFfAayZw1i_jR3Kew3OA930r5P-v7rz5EI6r4XHw/edit?usp=sharing My times came in a bit under Nach's original estimates , but roughly by the same amount for both NTSC and PAL. An important note here is that these are only times where you can control Mario, the game accepts inputs (i.e. pause) for much longer then that. I also included the time you have to hit start at the beginning of the game. This is only a first order analysis, as I didn't try to find where HappyLee wasted a few frames here or there in PAL, but unless significantly more time can be saved in 8-2 in NTSC, it's unlikely to be faster. If anyone has anything to add please let me know.
Posted: 9/3/2017 11:43 AM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
I have to add that this should be brought to everyone's attention in the submission thread.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 9/3/2017 2:53 PM
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Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Expert player (3532)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2730
Location: US
GBA TASer of 2023 Homebrew TAS of 2023 Gameboy TASer of 2022 NES TASer of 2015
^ This isn't a proper analysis quite yet, I want to be a bit more precise first. To that end, I went back and did actual in game time runs of both NTSC and PAL (and by that I mean I removed the flagpole glitches and didn't slow down in 8-2.) Here are the runs: NTSC: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/41492604435603477 PAL: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/41492581593396446 I updated the spreadsheet with the new information, see the IGT tabs. Right now, NTSC has a long way to catch up. I didn't try to improve 4-2, so maybe a little time can be saved there, but it looks like roughly the same time is lost in bot NTSC and PAL so I doubt it will improve much. I also didn't change the obvious places in 8-1 PAL where HappyLee slowed down to hit some shells. If we count pipe transitions in 1-1 as non-playable, NTSC has an almost insurmountable 0.65 seconds to improve. Things are little closer if we don't include them, with only 0.24 seconds between them. If anyone understands the vine glitch in 4-2 better and can improve the runs there that would probably be the biggest place to improve the accuracy of this comparison.
Posted: 9/3/2017 3:27 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11270
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
The main question for me atm is, is the PAL run shorter due to a new skip impossible in NTSC, or is it just shorter due to the nature of the engine?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 9/3/2017 4:31 PM
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Nach
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Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Alyosha wrote:
I don't know where Nach's original estimate of 2.37 for NTSC comes from, so if I'm missing something someone please fill me in.
I picked a spot before the staircase a bit prior to where HL slows down, as an easy to notice spot. I then went through a bunch of previous movies for the game, looking for the one which did the staircase to flag fastest. Once I found the fastest, I added the time from that point to the time I calculated for HL till that point, and then subtracted that from HL's overall time.
Alyosha wrote:
If anyone understands the vine glitch in 4-2 better and can improve the runs there that would probably be the biggest place to improve the accuracy of this comparison.
That's the thing, if you're aiming for fastest possible playable time don't do the glitch at all, as the glitch trades playable time for real time.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 9/3/2017 6:59 PM
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Alyosha
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GBA TASer of 2023 Homebrew TAS of 2023 Gameboy TASer of 2022 NES TASer of 2015
Nach wrote:
I picked a spot before the staircase a bit prior to where HL slows down, as an easy to notice spot. I then went through a bunch of previous movies for the game, looking for the one which did the staircase to flag fastest. Once I found the fastest, I added the time from that point to the time I calculated for HL till that point, and then subtracted that from HL's overall time. That's the thing, if you're aiming for fastest possible playable time don't do the glitch at all, as the glitch trades playable time for real time.
Which movie did you choose? I don't think I missed anything (I mean, I just had to run up the bricks) but I'd like to be totally positive. Good point. I went back did a test run and saved 46 frames in NTSC climbing the vine and 30 in PAL. It's surprising how little in game time this saves, but when Mario needs to jump in place it seems like it takes an eternity to do so. But, I also went back and saved the frames in 8-1 in PAL and turns out to be more then I expected at 12. This is net savings for NTSC of 46 (0.766s) and PAL of 42 (0.84s) so the net result is that NTSC is even further behind then before. (I'll post some movies maybe tomorrow when I have time to do things more carefully.)
Posted: 9/8/2017 3:16 PM
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Alyosha
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Joined: 11/30/2014
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Location: US
GBA TASer of 2023 Homebrew TAS of 2023 Gameboy TASer of 2022 NES TASer of 2015
I have completed the new in game time analysis. PAL is faster by a significant margin (in Super Mario Bros terms anyway.) NTSC: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/41604061717252503 PAL: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/41604073283198421 Spreadsheet can still be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/149PjFfAayZw1i_jR3Kew3OA930r5P-v7rz5EI6r4XHw/edit?usp=sharing If anyone has any other ideas feel free to suggest them but I think this is pretty conclusive.
Posted: 9/9/2017 3:37 PM
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MrWint
Skilled player (1019)
Joined: 7/24/2013
Posts: 175
TAS of 2017 Glitchy TAS of 2017 Gameboy TAS of 2017 Gameboy TASer of 2016 Gameboy TAS of 2016 Gameboy TASer of 2014 Lucky TAS of 2014 Gameboy TAS of 2014 Lucky TAS of 2013
I checked out your analysis, and there are several minor issues with it. Firstly, your measuerments are off by a frame or two for some of the segments. For some endings (esp. flag pole endings), you count a frame too many, and for NTSC 1-1 seg 2 you counted 2 frame too few (just because the inputs stop doesn't mean the playable time stops). This may seem irrelevant if you counted them wrong consistently, but it's not because PAL frames and NTSC frames have different lengths, so counting a frame extra for each adds more time to PAL than NTSC. I've made a copy of your spreadsheet with the corrected times, highlighting the changes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ov8yMWwzbS0P0UShMPe6tH84E0tNgYOxgh-zGpoXHJc/edit?usp=sharing Secondly, your conversion from frames to seconds for PAL used a constant that was slightly off (not only because of rounding). I decided I had enough of rounding discussions, so I replaced them with the exact fractions so the values are guaranteed to be accurate (Well, in theory, not dealing with the messiness of the real world). The spreadsheet still shows them as a rounded decimal, but if you want to get really exact you could calculate the exact difference (as a fraction) between NTSC and PAL. Thirdly and probably most problematically, the IGT runs you were basing the measurements off are blatantly suboptimal. For example, the PAL 1-1 seg 1 loses 2 frames right away. Also, in NTSC 8-1 and PAL 8-3 you started playing a frame late, losing a frame standing and doing nothing. I noted in the spreadsheet where I for sure know you could save frames, based on existing TASes. There are more spots where I strongly suspect you could save more frames, but I didn't note them to avoid spreading false information. That said, I don't expect these issues to change the overall conclusion. I could try to create more optimized IGT runs to get more precise numbers if people are interested, but I don't think they'll provide any significant new insights. As a side note, I don't understand your exclusion of the 1-1 pipes as an alternative calculation. What purpose does it serve? Why not exclude the 8-4 pipes as well then?
Posted: 1/18/2018 7:14 PM
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Evan0512
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Joined: 10/18/2017
Posts: 161
Location: San Francisco
Without a flagpole glitch, what happened? I got 100 points on flagpole without a glitch.
Planned runs: Marble Madness (Arcade, Genesis J, GG/SMS) Proposed: Ecco the Dolphin (Genesis, GG/SMS, CD: regular, camera freeze) Ecco: The Tides of Time (Genesis, GG/SMS, CD; normal mode) Mario Kart DS (all cups, all missions) In progress: Grand Poo World 3 (all exits hard mode)
Posted: 1/24/2018 11:28 PM
(Edited: 1/30/2018 5:16 PM)
Post subject: SMB1 comparison
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Evan0512
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Joined: 10/18/2017
Posts: 161
Location: San Francisco
Link to video The video above was the USA version. The video below was the JPN version. No video was shown by the JPN version, but it was 4 minutes 58.891 seconds. Here's the EUR version. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/50242660?t= Emulators are also used. For example, USA version: 4 minutes 57.593 seconds JPN version: 5 minutes 4 seconds EUR version: 5 minutes 18 seconds Link to video Sometimes I made mistakes. I knew the flagpole glitch twice. On my movie, I will plan to not exceed 5 minutes to publish. On World 8-1, I got to the flagpole at the timer 180s or 190s while WR speedrun did this: World 1-1: 369 1-2: Reached in World 4 pipe in 346 4-1: 340 4-2: Vine glitch by using a pipe. Get to the pipe so fast when the vine grows. When Mario enters the pipe, it went to warp area without a pipe. 354 when it got to World 8 pipe. 8-1: 225 first part, 200 at the flagpole, with 2000 score 8-2: 337 by using an bullet bill as a flagpole glitch 8-3: 242 by using a flagpole glitch 8-4: 315, using a "wrong pipe" glitch on part 3 before the real pipe after the lava. Wall jump were used on the pipe on the top. My times: World 1-1: 365 1-2: Reached in World 4 pipe in 344 4-1: 339 4-2: Reached in World 8 pipe in 350 8-1: 219 first part, 192 at flagpole 8-2: TBD 8-3: TBD 8-4: TBD
Planned runs: Marble Madness (Arcade, Genesis J, GG/SMS) Proposed: Ecco the Dolphin (Genesis, GG/SMS, CD: regular, camera freeze) Ecco: The Tides of Time (Genesis, GG/SMS, CD; normal mode) Mario Kart DS (all cups, all missions) In progress: Grand Poo World 3 (all exits hard mode)
Posted: 1/24/2018 11:56 PM
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Evan0512
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Joined: 10/18/2017
Posts: 161
Location: San Francisco
Here is a luck on World 4-2: Link to video
Planned runs: Marble Madness (Arcade, Genesis J, GG/SMS) Proposed: Ecco the Dolphin (Genesis, GG/SMS, CD: regular, camera freeze) Ecco: The Tides of Time (Genesis, GG/SMS, CD; normal mode) Mario Kart DS (all cups, all missions) In progress: Grand Poo World 3 (all exits hard mode)
Posted: 1/25/2018 7:40 AM
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ViGadeomes
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It's known but it's faster like it is.
Posted: 1/26/2018 1:06 AM
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Evan0512
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Joined: 10/18/2017
Posts: 161
Location: San Francisco
I don't know how to use the flagpole glitch.
Planned runs: Marble Madness (Arcade, Genesis J, GG/SMS) Proposed: Ecco the Dolphin (Genesis, GG/SMS, CD: regular, camera freeze) Ecco: The Tides of Time (Genesis, GG/SMS, CD; normal mode) Mario Kart DS (all cups, all missions) In progress: Grand Poo World 3 (all exits hard mode)
Posted: 1/30/2018 5:25 PM
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Evan0512
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Joined: 10/18/2017
Posts: 161
Location: San Francisco
Here is how the flagpole glitch works: Link to video NOTE: It ends at 0:31 when the flagpole glitch happens.
Planned runs: Marble Madness (Arcade, Genesis J, GG/SMS) Proposed: Ecco the Dolphin (Genesis, GG/SMS, CD: regular, camera freeze) Ecco: The Tides of Time (Genesis, GG/SMS, CD; normal mode) Mario Kart DS (all cups, all missions) In progress: Grand Poo World 3 (all exits hard mode)
Posted: 1/30/2018 7:18 PM
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TheKDX7
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Posts: 392
Location: Switzerland
Evan0512 wrote:
Here is how the flagpole glitch works: Link to video NOTE: It ends at 0:31 when the flagpole glitch happens.
Yes we know
Posted: 1/30/2018 11:38 PM
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Spikestuff
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Posts: 6337
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Flash TASer of 2022 PSX TASer of 2016
Hey Evan remember how in the SMB3 thread you were told to use the Game Resources page as that would have the information to Mario 3. Same applies to SMB. Use the Game Resources page as everything for SMB already exists.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
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