The third Atari run submitted to this site. In this game, you control Superman for less than a second before becoming --AVERAGE CITIZEN CLARK KENT-- who must repair the bridge destroyed by Lex Luthor, capture Luthor and his criminal underlings, enter a phonebooth to turn back into Clark Kent, then return to the Daily Planet in the shortest amount of time. To slow Superman's Kent's progress, blobs of paintKryptonite has been released by Luthor. If hit by paintKryptonite, Superman loses his abilities to capture criminals and fly. To regain them, he must find and passionately kiss Lois Lane. Fortunately, with the power of HAX, our AVERAGE CITIZEN prove that sometimes, human skills are just enough. ;) I make short work of an already normally short game.
Actual Explanation
The glitch I abused involves pausing the game, which after a while, goes into this "Demo" mode where it loops through the whole game (kinda like a preview of it). If you move, normally, it would unpause the game and put you back to where you were. But if you were on a door, it glitches and allows you to enter.
I take the subway (yes, that's what the yellow room is) and go to the daily planet to end the game. Note: if the bridge collapse is triggered, you can't win by going to the daily planet. You must do all that crap I listed instead.
Game objectives
Emulator used: BizHawk 1.2.0
Fastest time
Low score
Best Superman TAS evar
Abuses glitches
Proves that human skills are just enough
Comments
If such a crap game like "E.T. - The Extra-Terrestrial" got accepted, why not this? This was reviewed by the AVGN after all. Anyway, this TAS is comparable to The Amazing Spider-Man TAS by nitrogenesis since you're not supposed to do this in normal gameplay. But since playing legit knocks people to sleep, I drastically shorten the game!
Stage comments
I move two steps, paused the game, wait past 2 screen transitions, and walk left to finish this game.
Screenshot
Frame 597
Noxxa: Replaced submission with a three frame improvement by the author.
I am wondering, why is entertainment value a criteria for speedrun of games?
The idea of a speedrun is to complete the game as fast as possible, why should we care if the game is interesting? sure this game isn't very pleasing to watch. It does however beat the game in the fastest way possible we currently know.
You could make multiple categories of which some are more entertaining, but not publishing a speedrun because it would not be entertaining enough is bogus.
The main focus should always be the fastest way a game is completed not the most entertaining way.
The whole point to a TAS is to be entertaining. Why would you go out of your way to carefully put together a video that's boring to watch?
The whole point to a TAS is to be entertaining. Why would you go out of your way to carefully put together a video that's boring to watch?
That is where we differ greatly on opinion. I think a TAS of a speedrun should be as fast as possible, that is the goal to complete, if you complete it then it should suffice. Sure you can rate the entertainment value as very low but that is not the idea behind a speedrun. It would be a shame to not let through a submission and not document how fast the game can be completed if it is not fun to watch.
Voting no because of lack of entertainment value. I'm willing to make an exception for E.T. because it's such a well-known game, but that argument doesn't apply here.
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Heisanevilgenius wrote:
but is this something that a player can easily do unassisted?
Holding off on voting.
I was curious too, so I tried. Took me about 3 minutes to figure out what the "route" was, and 2 tries to successfully execute it. So the glitch itself is easy to pull off. I gave it about 5 emulator unassisted tries and my best was about 780 frames (about 100 frames slower than this submission).
However, I am torn. I think the glitch is cool. Abusing demos is relatively unusual in our tas literature (though this one falls fall short of arkanoid on cool factor). But it being this easy to pull off, then yeah, there's not much of a technical feat going on here.
EDIT: someone requested me to explain in detail how to pull this off:
Hold down as the game boots up (no intro screen, awesome) until you get into the phone booth and become super man.
Then walk slightly to the right.
Press the select button on the console
Wait 2 screen transitions during demo mode
Press and hold left, the game will glitch and send you through the door you were standing on, instead of back where you were.
Go to the left and you will be on the final screen, touch the ...whatever that is.. and you complete the game.
As for trrying to reproduce this time unassisted, there's really only 3 moments to time since you can hold down as the game boots up. From there you just have to press right immediate upon getting in the phone booth, and select shortly after (thats a switch on the console, that will be tricky). Then you have to press left at the right frame. Once you begin walking, it is easy to move diagonally to touch the ending block.
If you give a skilled human about 1-4 frames of variance for reflexes, then a good human should reasonably do this run within about .2 seconds from the TAS time.
The glitch I abused involves pausing the game, which after a while, goes into this "Demo" mode where it loops through the whole game (kinda like a preview of it). If you move, normally, it would unpause the game and put you back to where you were. But if you were on a door, it glitches and allows you to enter.
I take the subway (yes, that's what the yellow room is) and go to the daily planet to end the game. Note: if the bridge collapse is triggered, you can't win by going to the daily planet. You must do all that crap I listed instead.
Please add that to the submission text, so viewers get an idea what the heck is going on.
How does one normally beat this game, and what glitch or method is being used to beat it faster? It's not clear.
From Wikipedia:
The player(s) takes control of the DC Comics character Superman, who must repair the bridge destroyed by Lex Luthor, capture Luthor and his criminal underlings, enter a phonebooth to turn back into Clark Kent, then return to the Daily Planet in the shortest amount of time. To slow Superman's progress, Kryptonite has been released by Luthor. If hit by Kryptonite, Superman loses his abilities to capture criminals and fly. To regain them, he must find and kiss Lois Lane.
The glitch I abused involves pausing the game, which after a while, goes into this "Demo" mode where it loops through the whole game (kinda like a preview of it). If you move, normally, it would unpause the game and put you back to where you were. But if you were on a door, it glitches and allows you to enter.
I take the subway (yes, that's what the yellow room is) and go to the daily planet to end the game. Note: if the bridge collapse is triggered, you can't win by going to the daily planet. You must do all that crap I listed instead.
I think all A2600 games should require their full descriptions on the game, mechanics, normal gameplay, and actual gameplay/abuse in the submission text. This will help the author(s) argue for publication. I have a feeling that several of the voters are voting without having any experience or prior knowledge of this or similar games. So without an appropriate description, it becomes harder for the audience to fairly judge/vote on primitive games.
rog wrote:
Voting yes. It's way better than the other two atari submissions we've had so far. I think if this gets published, i might rate it a 1.5 for entertainment.
Raiders had an amusing attempt at music. Also, there was a clear ending to that game. ET had less of a noticeable ending. And this one even less.
E1dan wrote:
That is where we differ greatly on opinion. I think a TAS of a speedrun should be as fast as possible, that is the goal to complete, if you complete it then it should suffice. Sure you can rate the entertainment value as very low but that is not the idea behind a speedrun. It would be a shame to not let through a submission and not document how fast the game can be completed if it is not fun to watch.
If that were the criteria, then you would also have to accept runs such as $1499 and $1501 Monopoly and Fisher Price games.
adelikat wrote:
I was curious too, so I tried. Took me about 3 minutes to figure out what the "route" was, and 2 tries to successfully execute it. So the glitch itself is easy to pull off. I gave it about 5 emulator unassisted tries and my best was about 780 frames (about 100 frames slower than this submission).
As for trrying to reproduce this time unassisted, there's really only 3 moments to time since you can hold down as the game boots up. From there you just have to press right immediate upon getting in the phone booth, and select shortly after (thats a switch on the console, that will be tricky). Then you have to press left at the right frame. Once you begin walking, it is easy to move diagonally to touch the ending block.
If you give a skilled human about 1-4 frames of variance for reflexes, then a good human should reasonably do this run within about .2 seconds from the TAS time.
This would be the biggest reason for me giving a No vote. But I'm abstaining.
That is where we differ greatly on opinion. I think a TAS of a speedrun should be as fast as possible, that is the goal to complete, if you complete it then it should suffice. Sure you can rate the entertainment value as very low but that is not the idea behind a speedrun. It would be a shame to not let through a submission and not document how fast the game can be completed if it is not fun to watch.
If that were the criteria, then you would also have to accept runs such as $1499 and $1501 Monopoly and Fisher Price games.
Please give me a link to these game before bringing them up in the discussion.
I think it's fantastic you were able to abuse this bug. The whole idea of skipping directly to the end is exciting. But my vote means "would I watch this again?" No, probably not.
That is where we differ greatly on opinion. I think a TAS of a speedrun should be as fast as possible, that is the goal to complete, if you complete it then it should suffice. Sure you can rate the entertainment value as very low but that is not the idea behind a speedrun. It would be a shame to not let through a submission and not document how fast the game can be completed if it is not fun to watch.
If that were the criteria, then you would also have to accept runs such as $1499 and $1501 Monopoly and Fisher Price games.
Please give me a link to these game before bringing them up in the discussion.
Well you want me to look at that piece of information, logic dictates that you would then at least provide me that information and not wait for me to search for it.
What I can see from the Monopoly runs is that they do not finish the game; it's that easy. They prematurely end the game to get to a end screen instead of completing the main objective: getting to the somewhat normal end of the game.
This Superman TAS however does get to the normal ending in the fastest way we currently now. Reason enough for it to be submitted.
I was curious too, so I tried. Took me about 3 minutes to figure out what the "route" was, and 2 tries to successfully execute it. So the glitch itself is easy to pull off. I gave it about 5 emulator unassisted tries and my best was about 780 frames (about 100 frames slower than this submission).
Interesting. If the result is that easy to duplicate without TAS'ing, then that should qualify this run by default, no?
Interesting. If the result is that easy to duplicate without TAS'ing, then that should qualify this run by default, no?
Theoretically speaking the only difference between a human and a machine is the speed. The pc is precise and way more fast while humans are not so you can basiclly say the same about all the movies in this site... they can "theoretically" be made by a human if he's fast and precise enough (pacifist runs for example).
BUT if a human run is faster than any TAS published here THEN we have a problem because we're searching for perfection here and while there's this tiny difference (100 frames in this case) between human and TAS I see no problem... if the glitch in question is easy or not to do I think it's more or less despicable as long as the TAS in question do it as fast as it can be done.
Interesting. If the result is that easy to duplicate without TAS'ing, then that should qualify this run by default, no?
Theoretically speaking the only difference between a human and a machine is the speed. The PC is precise and way more fast while humans are not so you can basically say the same about all the movies in this site... they can "theoretically" be made by a human if he's fast and precise enough (pacifist runs for example).
BUT if a human run is faster than any TAS published here THEN we have a problem because we're searching for perfection here and while there's this tiny difference (100 frames in this case) between human and TAS I see no problem... if the glitch in question is easy or not to do I think it's more or less despicable as long as the TAS in question do it as fast as it can be done.
I think a TAS player should appear to be superhuman, for example by effortlessly removing enemies and obstacles, and seemingly be able to see the future (in fact, every possible moment in the game) like an all-knowing god.
It's just not interesting to see a TAS that can be done by a human, only slower.
I think a TAS player should appear to be superhuman, for example by effortlessly removing enemies and obstacles, and seemingly be able to see the future (in fact, every possible moment in the game) like an all-knowing god.
That was my point. The "superhuman" in this case revolves around how fast and how precise the movements are made in comparison to a normal human (which we all know it'll look sloppy in comparison).
creaothceann wrote:
It's just not interesting to see a TAS that can be done by a human, only slower.
I'm not sure what you meant here but I think you refer to the difference between speedruns (runs made by humans without any sort of help) and TAS (Tool Assisted Superplay)... if you compare both of them with the same game being played and with similar goals (100% completeness for example) you'll realize both follow a very similar route BUT of course the TAS is made faster, other than that they are equivalent.
I mean tricks only possible via TAS, those that literally can't be executed by a human player even with repetitive training.
Those TASes would enable completely new routes.
Theoretically speaking the only difference between a human and a machine is the speed. The pc is precise and way more fast while humans are not so you can basiclly say the same about all the movies in this site... they can "theoretically" be made by a human if he's fast and precise enough (pacifist runs for example).
The difference is that while all runs can theoretically be made by a human if he's fast enough, this particular run here can practically be made by a deft-handed human.
That is where we differ greatly on opinion. I think a TAS of a speedrun should be as fast as possible, that is the goal to complete, if you complete it then it should suffice. Sure you can rate the entertainment value as very low but that is not the idea behind a speedrun. It would be a shame to not let through a submission and not document how fast the game can be completed if it is not fun to watch.
That's what regular speedruns are for. The entire point to making them tool-assisted is to provide entertainment. I honestly don't know why else you'd want to do something like this. I'm sorry if my responses are just repeating the same argument without expanding on it but I really don't know what else to say. It's like you're saying you don't understand why comedies need to be funny.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
11 seconds of my life I'm never getting back. I'll continue to vote no on any and all Atari submissions because they're an absolute waste, and in no way do they demonstrate the raw capabilities of making entertaining movies that TAS tools provide.
11 seconds of my life I'm never getting back. I'll continue to vote no on any and all Atari submissions because they're an absolute waste, and in no way do they demonstrate the raw capabilities of making entertaining movies that TAS tools provide.
Voting no on principle (especially when you announce in advance that you will always vote no on principle) is your prerogative, but it's not desired. It's much more desired if you evaluate each submission on its own merits and then give your solid arguments why you voted no. Choice of console is not a good reason to vote no.
That is where we differ greatly on opinion. I think a TAS of a speedrun should be as fast as possible, that is the goal to complete, if you complete it then it should suffice. Sure you can rate the entertainment value as very low but that is not the idea behind a speedrun. It would be a shame to not let through a submission and not document how fast the game can be completed if it is not fun to watch.
That's what regular speedruns are for. The entire point to making them tool-assisted is to provide entertainment. I honestly don't know why else you'd want to do something like this. I'm sorry if my responses are just repeating the same argument without expanding on it but I really don't know what else to say. It's like you're saying you don't understand why comedies need to be funny.
You want to do a TAS of a speedrun to show that it can be finished faster then was thought before. That is the entire idea of a speedrun: to finish as fast as possible. A TAS does exactly the same, but with great precision. Fun is not a factor, speed is.
If you give a skilled human about 1-4 frames of variance for reflexes, then a good human should reasonably do this run within about .2 seconds from the TAS time.
From my experiments in hardware TASing (i.e. inputting an input file into a controller by pressing buttons on it): if you have a metronome or countdown or similar device giving you cues on exactly when to press the button, and several seconds to prepare before you have to press it (no 30Hz mashing), a skilled human can hit an individual frame perhaps 1 time in 3, after spending several hours practising.
